Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Are God's Ten Commandments still valid ??

That is the primary question to be answered on this section of the board.

And the irrefutable response from scripture is ... "yes".

========================

Here we have the NT text providing examples from the TEN Commandments -- affirming them as "still" valid.

And of course scripture is -- true.

=========================

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said;Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments; 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself


"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19


Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Note Paul says in Romans 3 that this is the Law that defines sin and condemns the entire world as sinners... that would not be "the Law about Passover". That does not condemn gentiles at all.
.
...

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away ==============================

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets" a term that specifies all of OT "scripture")

Matt 22 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it."

Any part of scripture read could fall under that title.

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

=================================

Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

 

[BobRyan]

Ok so that was what we fine for "examples" illustrations in the NT of God's Ten Commandments - is there more? maybe from "all" of scripture?

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are
Commandments of God Neh 10:29
Law of God ; Neh 10:29
Word of God Mark 7:13
Commandment of GodMark 7:6-13
NT ScriptureJames 2:8
NT Law James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones?And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

==========================================================
Paul affirms the Ten Commandments

1. Paul teaches that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
2. Paul tells gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
3. Paul tellw gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
4. Paul askw that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
5. Paul tells ALL Christians that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
6. Paul tells gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
7 Paul reaches all Christians under the NEW Covenant that God's LAW as known in Jer 31:31-33 is "written on the heart and mind" Heb 8:7-11
8. Paul tells all Christians that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16
(see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.
9. Paul tells all Christians that the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 and is binding on all Christians.


Paul does explain his own acceptance of God's Law this way - in Acts 21


Christian church leaders like James were addressing what they consider a false accusation being made against the Apostle Paul.


Acts 21
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

They suggest some solution to the problem with this conclusion

vs 24...so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Paul relies on the gentiles reading the OT as 'scripture' so he does not need to repeat it in his every letter.

As a result -
1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment


==================================================

Acts 21 - to see just how far Paul was going to affirm the OT Law of God.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
.

And as also summarized here -

Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24:
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

Acts 26
22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok that is all well and good - but the thread title says that these obvious pro-Ten Commandment facts in the Bible are also affirmed by pro-Sunday scholarship.

How can that possibly be?

First a summary of the pro-Sunday scholarship statements affirming the TEN Commandments.

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

For example Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -



[FONT=&quot]The Faith Explained[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
====================begin short summary
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]====================================== begin expanded quote
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243[/FONT][FONT=&quot].))

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]we know that in the O.T it was the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the week - the Sabbath day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- which was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]observed as the Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. that was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the law as God gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]church had the right to make such a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is evident[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday.[/FONT][FONT=&quot].that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

So then what would be an example of such pro-Sunday scholarship that pertains to the 7 point summary list just posted?

Here we have section 19 of the Westminster - and of course you already have a few posts of mine quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19

"Westminster Confession of Faith"

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God​

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;l and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

​

Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1.

 

[BobRyan]

The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 almost identical to the Westminster section 19 quoted above.

Notice how they both fit that 7 point summary already posted on page 1?

Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19

Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith"
-- CH Spurgeon

The Perpetuity of the Law of God

Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. ​

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it __________________​

Originally Posted by Baptist Confession of Faith

Section 22.


Point 7

7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
​

 

[BobRyan]

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

This Sabbath Commandment section of Moody's Ten Commandm[FONT=&quot]ent sermon goes quot]on with more detail. Here is a segment of that same section -- the en[FONT=&quot]ding concluding segment - that might help she[FONT=&quot]d even more light on Moody's Intent - #229 post is on this

 

[BobRyan]

Well then what about all the other pro-sunday groups as listed in my signature line? What about the Catholic church for example?

It is interesting that even the RCC confirms many of those 7 points.

[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini is a papal encyclical on the subject of Sunday and how it is regarded by tradition to be a holy day rooted in the 10 commandments as a continuation of the 4th commandment (numbered 3 by Roman Catholics).

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Dies Domini, John Paul II, 5 July 1998 - Apostolic Letter - link[/FONT]

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Dies Domini, John Paul II, 5 July 1998 - Apostolic Letter [/FONT]

========================== Dies Domini begin
[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 11 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Dies Domini pt 13 -[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."[/FONT]

=============================== Dies Domini ... end quote

The quote I gave from Dies Domini is fully consistent with the examples I gave from the Catholic Catechism - at least that is what we appear to have in the details of those quotes.

No one has an example of Dies Domini or the CCC objecting to the 7 points listed in the OP. No not one.

I offer a perfect example to test the points -- in quotes from the CCC.

I say again that 6 of the 7 points appear here.

Secondary source for the Catechism: This is a link -[FONT=&quot]Catholic Catechism Section Two Ten Comm[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/FONT] __________________ __________________

 

[BobRyan]

So far we have a perfectly wonderful thread - dealing with the core subject, the core points specific to this entire section of the board.

And the question is why does it matter that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship affirms the continued TEN Commandments as we find in the actual Bible?

It matters because it shows "objectivity" in POV - it shows that BOTH sides of the debate are in agreement on at least a few glaringly obvious Bible details - namely the continued authority of the TEN commandments as the New Covenant moral law of God - still applicable to the saints to this very day.

Seldom do all of these groups agree on one thing so profoundly and yet when it comes to the fact of the TEN Commandments still the moral law of God - that view is affirmed on both sides of the debate.

Dissenters still exist against it - to be sure - but the fact that this is an objective point - and clearly seen in scripture by both sides - hard to 'ignore'.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sophrosyne]

Nope.... just another thread where Moses is thrown under a bus and people who don't represent me as a Christian are taken out of context to dupe the unawares into thinking that the SDA have it right..
Paul says otherwise.

 

[BobRyan]

The question is asked about James 2 - and quoting the Law of Moses -

We disagree. Can you prove your point with the Bible?

bugkiller

As for James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”
also said, “Do not commit murder.”

Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

James argues the point based on "HE who said" -- in the text.

So then "in the text" - James is affirming "the whole law" and is giving example from THE Ten Commandments - saying that "HE who said" one of those commandments - ALSO Said - the others.


James 2 - in complete agreement with Prov 28 in a number of places.

Prov 28
Is like a driving rain which leaves no food.
4Those who forsake the law praise the wicked,
But those who keep the law strive with them.
..
9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.


Just as we would all expect - before the cross. Yet this is the "scripture" being read by NT saints in all NT texts "scripture" is a reference to the OT.

As for teaching of Christ, the Words of Christ - not throwing Moses under a bus

Luke 16
17 ... it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”


Matt 5
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31



As for not throwing Moses under a bus by setting aside one of the TEN Commandments - Christ makes that point in Mark 7.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God"

AND as the "Commandment of God"??

============================================

Was Christ throwing Moses "under a bus" when in Mark 2:27 He said that "Sabbath was made for mankind -- and not mankind made for the Sabbath"??

Was Isaiah throwing Moses "under a bus" when he said God claims "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down" for all eternity in the New Earth?

And in Is 56 where we are told that gentiles are specifically targeted as blessed for honoring and keeping God's Sabbath -- is God throwing Moses "under a bus" in that case?

No He is not - because Moses never claims "The Sabbath should not be kept by gentiles" or "is not applicable to gentiles" -- a point that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship accepts.

The "only for Israel" argument does not work in Hebrews 8 or Jer 31:31-33 with the new Covenant even though there we see that the NEW Covenant is made "with Israel and with Judah".

The "only for Israel" argument does not work in Acts 13 even though there we see this regarding the Gospel

Acts 13
23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—
24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.


The "only for Israel" does not work in John 4 even though there we see Christ states clearly 'salvation is of the JEWS"

John 4
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

The "only for Israel" argument does not work in Ex 20:1-7 even though there we see that taking God's name in vain is condemned in the commandment -- said to Israel - and yet applicable to ALL mankind.


And....

It does not work in Ex 20:8-11 where those same Commandments to Israel include the Sabbath "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 where "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down" Is 66:23

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

I'll be horn swaggled a cut and paste thread.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The question is asked about James 2 - and quoting the Law of Moses -




As for James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”
also said, “Do not commit murder.”

Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

James argues the point based on "HE who said" -- in the text.

So then "in the text" - James is affirming "the whole law" and is giving example from THE Ten Commandments - saying that "HE who said" one of those commandments - ALSO Said - the others.


As for not throwing Moses under a bus by setting aside one of the TEN Commandments - Christ makes that point in Mark 7.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God"

AND as the "Commandment of God"??

in Christ,

Bob

Are you trying to make me look like an ambulance chaser or are you just trying to hide from me? What was wrong with the other thread?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Are you trying to make me look like an ambulance chaser or are you just trying to hide from me? What was wrong with the other thread?

bugkiller

You have an entire thread dedicated to the subject of the continued authority of the Ten Commandments for the saints today.

What better place to make your case???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

You have an entire thread dedicated to the subject of the continued authority of the Ten Commandments for the saints today.

What better place to make your case???

in Christ,

Bob

The Bible beat you and made my case already. So keep throwing out what you don't like.

I've already made my case and it looks like your still trying to prove yours.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

On the contrary the Bible made the case on page one of this thread- so obvious so glaringly obvious that even the majority of your won pro-sunday scholarship admits to the point.

A fact that shows a level of objectivity where Both sides of the debate agree - a level of objectivity not once attempted by those opposing God's TEN Commandments.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

 

[bugkiller]

On the contrary the Bible made the case on page one of this thread- so obvious so glaringly obvious that even the majority of your won pro-sunday scholarship admits to the point.

A fact that shows a level of objectivity where Both sides of the debate agree - a level of objectivity not once attempted by those opposing God's TEN Commandments.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Since its a repost from another thread it obviously doesn't do what is claimed.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

I find your logic illusive just then.

 

[BobRyan]

In this OP thread we see so many clear examples of NT authors NOT restricting themselves to the commandments of Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 -- #1

But in these examples the "lists" that the Bible gives in the NT focus almost entirely on the last 6 commandments and we do not see the first 4 commandments in a "list" in the NT.

In fact we don't see the third commandment quoted at all in the NT - it reads like this.

Ex 20
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain."


Can we then bend-wrench the Bible and "imagine" that only the last 6 commandments apply and not the first 4??

"No" says the Bible in James 2 "For HE WHO said" do not commit adultery also said the first 4 commandments.

"No" says the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship- as we saw on page one -- thus demonstrating a level of "obvectivity" on this point never even attempted by the "at war against God's ten commandments" POV.


And how many times do we see God's Sabbath Commandment quote even in part in the NT?

[FONT=&quot]Exodus 20:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
11 "" FOR in six days the LORD MADE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed The Sabbath day and made it holy.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 4: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24[/FONT][FONT=&quot]So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 14:15 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.[/FONT][FONT=&quot](NASB shows the quote of Exodus 20[/FONT][FONT=&quot])[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rev 14:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Heb 4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For He has said somewhereconcerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Heb 4:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In Heb 10:4-12 "He takes away the first to establish the second" when it comes to animal sacrifices.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But in Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" when the OT law is not taken away.[/FONT]

================
[FONT=&quot]Gen 2
[FONT=&quot]Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Exodus 20:
8 ""Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" FOR in six days the LORD MADE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed The Sabbath day and made it holy.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]From Gen 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Ex 20:11[/FONT] - [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed The Sabbath day and made it holy.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mark 2:27 “the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind – not mankind MADE for the Sabbath”[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]"10 Reasons why the Sabbath is not just for Jews.

1) Adam and Eve were not Jewish. "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" (Genesis 2:3) before sin entered. "Sanctified" means "to be set apart for holy use." The only ones in the Garden of Eden for whom the Sabbath was “set apart” were Adam and Eve, who weren’t Jewish.

2) "The Sabbath was made for man." Mark 2:27. Jesus said this. It was "made" in the Garden of Eden before it was "written" down on Mount Sinai. The Sabbath was "made" for "man," not just Jews.

3) The other nine commandments are not "just for Jews." God wrote "Ten Commandments" on stone, not just nine (See Deut. 4:12, 13; Ex. 20). Does “Do not commit adultery,”“Do not murder,”“Do not steal,” and “Do not bear false witness” apply "only to Jews"?

4) "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Exodus 20:10. God calls the Sabbath, "my holy day." Isaiah 58:13. The Bible never calls it "the Sabbath of the Jews." It isn’t their Sabbath, but God's.

5) The Sabbath commandment is for the "stranger" too. The fourth commandment itself says the "stranger" is to rest on the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10.“Strangers” are non-Jews, or Gentiles. Thus the Sabbath applies to them too. Read also Isaiah 56:6.

6) Isaiah 56 said Gentiles should keep the Sabbath. "Also the sons of the stranger ... every one that keeps the Sabbath ... for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:6, 7. Thus the Sabbath is for Gentiles and “all people,” not just for Jews.

7) "All" mankind will keep the Sabbath in the New Earth. In "the new earth ... from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the Lord." Isaiah 66:22, 23. Here God says that “all flesh” will be keeping the Sabbath in “the new earth.” If this is the case – and it is – shouldn’t we start now?

8) Gentiles kept the Sabbath in the Book of Acts. "The Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath ... Paul and Barnabas ... persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."' Acts 13:42, 43. Here saved-by-grace Gentiles kept the Sabbath (see also verse 44). See also Acts 17 and Acts 18... of them with Sabbath after Sabbath worship services and Gospel teaching in the synagogues.

9) "The law" [of Ten Commandments] is for "all the world," not just for Jews. Paul wrote these words. Read Romans 2:17-23; 3:19, 23.

10) Luke was a Gentile who kept the Sabbath. Luke was the only Gentile who wrote any New Testament books (he wrote The Gospel According to St. Luke and The Acts of the Apostles). Luke traveled with Paul and wrote, "On the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side." Acts 16:13. It was the seventh-day Sabbath, the memorial of the creation (see Ex. 20:11). Both Luke and Paul knew it...[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

So the conclusion is that in the first 20 posts - on what appears to be the first 2 pages of this thread -- all of the mundane retorts against the Ten commandments have been fully refuted and not only this - but the Sabbath commandment has been affirmed for all the saints.

The "result" -- the "proof" is going to be seen that on this and on several other threads - when a rather mundane objection surfaces it will be compellingly refuted by a mere quote of one of the posts on the first two pages of this thread, so long as the 'details' of the point being made are followed closely.

I don't say that no expanded explanation may come up - just that the information is all here on two pages within 20 posts -- which contain 9 posts that are the key irrefutable posts answering a great many objections to the subject, if not all.