Paul fought the circumcision, Messianic Judaism.

[Frogster]

indeed the text tells us what they were saying

21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

AND the text tells us the solution that they chose to refute that false accusation - and prove it to be false.

I think we can all see that.

in Christ,

Bob

green above, forsake in the Greek means apostasy, really bad stuff was said about paul, I showed you what Rom 3:8 says, that they said Paul said to sin, and things like that.

Why do you think in Rom 6, he asks if we should sin, because we are under grace, then said no!

Answer, because he was answering false charges against him, that he knew his enemies were saying. Rom 3:8.


Again, James was fearing all of this, so it does not matter so much what the exact wording was, Paul knew some thought the worst of him, so he took the vow to please James, no big deal really.

James was in a panic, he said "do what we tell you!".

So Paul did, no big deal really, but to try to turn Paul into this law boy won't cut it, too much history and theology in the Bible, to proof text Acts 21.

 

[Frogster]

Paul and James came up with a solution to refute the false accusation

"they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs."

Do you join them in that accusation against Paul - or do you choose to join James and Paul in refuting it?

What is the position that your POV takes on that point of Acts 21?

was Paul gong around teaching people to steal or commit adultery? No..That is what they were saying about him.

Soooooo..paul figured take the vow, befriend james who helped him earlier in Acts 15. James in Acts 21 reminded paul that he helped him in Acts 15, so now it was Paul's turn to help James.

Again, you're really blowing 21 out of proportion here.

 

[bugkiller]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Christian church leaders like James were addressing what they consider a false accusation being made against the Apostle Paul.

21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

They suggest some solution to the problem with this conclusion

vs 24...so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
​

That Gal 4 text look like 50-50 you vs Paul.

Here it is -- just Paul complaining that certain church members are returning to pagan practices. (It is not Paul claiming to be a pagan).

Gal 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.


8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.


So then back to Paul proving his case against false accusers.


Acts 21

21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

They suggest some solution to the problem with this conclusion

vs 24...so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.











Both James and Paul are Jewish Christians - as it turns out.


James argues for the "conclusion" in other words his case is that by taking the steps identified - they get to the desired conclusion.

And what is that stated conclusion - as stated in the text??




vs 24...so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Seems like you refuse to consider other things Paul wrote.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

On the contrary I often quote the second half and show that this is the ceremonial law part of the 1Cor 7:19 contrast between the Ten Commandment moral law - vs the ceremonial law.

in Christ,

Bob

Fine but circumcision isn't ceremonial. The rite of circumcision is though.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

When the subject is Paul vs the Jews - this is perfect.

in Christ,

Bob

What are you talking about?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Interesting that you would wish to highlight that.


20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
===============================================

Obviously in that post above - it is the text itself that makes the case. The idea that avoiding the text is the best way to address it - does not work.

As we see in this example above - I simply quote the text.



How odd - since I offer no "interpretation" in that quote above - I merely quote the text - and point to details in the text that some might wish to avoid.

Notice that those who want to get a better view of Acts 21 - do so by avoiding the text entirely. And thus provide a clue for all who read that there is a problem




Acts 21 is about the subject of Jews that are Christians.

Acts 15 is about the subject of gentiles who become Christians.

One cannot interpret Acts 21 - by avoiding it.




indeed - they are believers.



And those Jewish believers were "zealous for the law"

Pretty hard to ignore these basic facts quoted in your own post.



Now here is an accusation that was made against Paul - that some here would gladly affirm -- if they could in Acts 21.



Here we see the "solution" that they say fully refutes the accusation.

Clearly their solution does do that.

A huge problem for those who are at war against certain parts of the Bible.

Notice then - in your own quote of it - how the Jewish Christian leaders such as James - set this example in contrast to the gentiles.



An interesting affirmation of Lev 17 when it comes to not eating meat that has blood in it. And not exhaustive since it does not even include the command to Love God or to Love your neighbor -- clearly it is not intended to downsize the entire Bible for gentiles.




A solution perfectly calculated to refute the false accusation against Paul when the reality for Paul was as James said --

and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law





Specifically that Paul was in the habit of gaining Christian converts from among the Jews - and in so doing he was said to be telling them to

forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs.

So then Paul refutes that charge in HIS Own practice and in his paying for his fellow Christian Jews to join him in that ceremonial vow.





Well it does specifically speak to what Paul was teaching Jewish Christians and what Paul himself practiced -- if you read the chapter.



Not "Above" not "Below" they are showing that their actions are "in harmony with" what they had already voted.

The point remains.




you are quoting "you" to try and find an error. Quote me if you want to show that I am in error.

in Christ,

Bob

Now do you have any biblical support to show the Gentiles were zealous for the law?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Paul and James came up with a solution to refute the false accusation

"they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs."

Do you join them in that accusation against Paul - or do you choose to join James and Paul in refuting it?

What is the position that your POV takes on that point of Acts 21?

You mean you don't understand what has been posted several times in this thread, yet?

Personally I think you're doing nothing but badgering others.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Seems like you refuse to consider other things Paul wrote.

bugkiller

exactly, he taking part of an unfolding story in history, where Paul had a certain reason for his actions. Then Bob is trying to turn acts 21 into a doctrinal thesis.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Now do you have any biblical support to show the Gentiles were zealous for the law?

bugkiller

Excellent question! First time I have seen that brought up concerning the heathen gentiles and the Law.
Perhaps we could make a thread on that

Acts 21:20
and they having heard, were glorifying the Lord. They said also to him, 'Thou seest, brother, how many myriads there are of Judeans who have believed,
and all are zealous of the law,
Acts 23:3:
“I am a Judean, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers,
being zealous for God as all of you are this day.
Romans 10:2
for I bear them testimony that they have a zeal of God,
but not according to knowledge,
Gala 1:14
and I advanced in the Judaism beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen,
being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS AND PAUL VS THE CIRCUMCISION AND LAW
LUKE 16:
29 "They have Abraham and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

JOHN 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you trust.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me.
47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

.

 

[BobRyan]

The Title of this thread is about Paul vs the Messianic Jews - of which Paul was one.

And of course the irrefutable evidence is Acts 21 - is beyond question. Paul PROVED his own position for all to see - even his accusers.

This was written in the NT.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

But then LLOJ offers this

Acts 21:20
and they having heard, were glorifying the Lord. They said also to him, 'Thou seest, brother, how many myriads there are of Judeans who have believed,
and all are zealous of the law,

Acts 23:3:
“I am a Judean, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers,
being zealous for God as all of you are this day.

A little 'hint' that after Acts 21 Paul becomes even MORE explicit about his own messianic Jewish lifestyle.



================================

Acts 24

10 Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered: “Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, 11 because you may ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues or in the city. 13 Nor can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. 14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.
17 “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, 18in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult. 19 They ought to have been here before you to object if they had anything against me. 20 Or else let those who are here themselves say if they found any wrongdoing in me while I stood before the council, 21unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’”



Acts 25
7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”


Acts 26
according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead? ...
Paul Recounts His Conversion

12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking ... 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Paul’s Post-Conversion Life

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans, 18 who, when they had examined me, wanted to let me go, because there was no cause for putting me to death. 19 But when the Jews spoke against it, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar, not that I had anything of which to accuse my nation. 20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.

 

[bugkiller]

The Title of this thread is about Paul vs the Messianic Jews - of which Paul was one.

And of course the irrefutable evidence is Acts 21 - is beyond question. Paul PROVED his own position for all to see - even his accusers.



But then LLOJ offers this



A little 'hint' that after Acts 21 Paul becomes even MORE explicit about his own messianic Jewish lifestyle.



================================

Acts 24

10 Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered: “Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, 11 because you may ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues or in the city. 13 Nor can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.
17 “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, 18 in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult. 19 They ought to have been here before you to object if they had anything against me. 20 Or else let those who are here themselves say if they found any wrongdoing in me while I stood before the council, 21 unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’”

Paul persecuted those of the Way prior to his conversion. They were not acceptable to Jews. The people of the Way later were referred to as Christians.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]=============================[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

This was written in the NT.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

But then LLOJ offers this

Acts 21:20
and they having heard, were glorifying the Lord. They said also to him, 'Thou seest, brother, how many myriads there are of Judeans who have believed,
and all are zealous of

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]law[/FONT][FONT=&quot],

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Acts 23:3:
“I am a Judean, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the[/FONT][FONT=&quot] law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of our fathers,
being zealous for God as all of you are this day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A little 'hint' that after Acts 21 Paul becomes even MORE explicit about his own messianic Jewish lifestyle.



================================

Acts 24

10 Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered: “Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, 11 because you may ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues or in the city. 13 Nor can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. 14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.
17 “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, 18in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult. 19 They ought to have been here before you to object if they had anything against me. 20 Or else let those who are here themselves say if they found any wrongdoing in me while I stood before the council, 21unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’”



Acts 25
7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”


Acts 26
according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead? ...
Paul Recounts His Conversion

12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking ... 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Paul’s Post-Conversion Life

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans, 18 who, when they had examined me, wanted to let me go, because there was no cause for putting me to death. 19 But when the Jews spoke against it, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar, not that I had anything of which to accuse my nation. 20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. [/FONT]

 

[Frogster]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]=============================[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

But then LLOJ offers this

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A little 'hint' that after Acts 21 Paul becomes even MORE explicit about his own messianic Jewish lifestyle.



================================

Acts 24

10 Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered: “Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, 11 because you may ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues or in the city. 13 Nor can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. 14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.
17 “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, 18in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult. 19 They ought to have been here before you to object if they had anything against me. 20 Or else let those who are here themselves say if they found any wrongdoing in me while I stood before the council, 21unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’”



Acts 25
7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”


Acts 26
according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead? ...
Paul Recounts His Conversion

12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking ... 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Paul’s Post-Conversion Life

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans, 18 who, when they had examined me, wanted to let me go, because there was no cause for putting me to death. 19 But when the Jews spoke against it, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar, not that I had anything of which to accuse my nation. 20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. [/FONT]

wow..ok, 21, 24, 25, 26, 28, Paul was talking about the resurrection, he was not promoting law, he said he was on trial, being judged because of that. And he was defending the fact, that at the temple he did not break laws, that is why felix, festus, or agrippa could not charge him.

your verse below where you quote LlOJ prove it, he was about the resurrection.

Acts 25, no, he did not IN THAT INSTANCE break rules, and bring a greek into the temple.

I never saw a post like this before, you're first half you seem to act like Paul was of law, but right in your second set of verses, he said he was about the resurrection, not the law!


23:6 Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.”

24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.


25:19 Rather they had certain points of dispute with him about their own religion and about a certain Jesus, who was dead, but whom Paul asserted to be alive. (resurrection)


. Acts 26:22 To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: 23 that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, (resurrection;))he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.”

 

[Frogster]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]=============================[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

But then LLOJ offers this

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A little 'hint' that after Acts 21 Paul becomes even MORE explicit about his own messianic Jewish lifestyle.



================================

Acts 24

10 Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered: “Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, 11 because you may ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues or in the city. 13 Nor can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. 14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.
17 “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, 18in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult. 19 They ought to have been here before you to object if they had anything against me. 20 Or else let those who are here themselves say if they found any wrongdoing in me while I stood before the council, 21unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’”



Acts 25
7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”


Acts 26
according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead? ...
Paul Recounts His Conversion

12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking ... 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Paul’s Post-Conversion Life

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans, 18 who, when they had examined me, wanted to let me go, because there was no cause for putting me to death. 19 But when the Jews spoke against it, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar, not that I had anything of which to accuse my nation. 20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. [/FONT]

Acts 28, no he did not do any crimes against the temple when in jerusalem, felix, festus, the council of chapter 23, and Agrippa agreed, you are trying to act like paul was a messianic, when he was not!

He was on trial for temple defilement, but really as he said, it was because he believed in the resurrection which proved the jews wrong to kill the messiah! That was why they tried to kill him, that was the real reason, Paul said so.

 

[Frogster]

Paul was defending the resurrection in upper Acts that was in the OT, not law promotion!, he was not a practicing pharisee any more, he called it poop in Phil 3.

That was the hope of the 12 tribes, not the law! Paul was on trial because of the resurrection, defending that!


26:6 And now I stand here on trial because of my hope in the promise made by God to our fathers, 7 to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly worship night and day. And for this hope I am accused by Jews, O king!8 Why is it thought incredible by any of you that God raises the dead?(resurrection)

So you can highlight what you like in a verse, but the context was, the story, different from what you make it to be.I know the story...

Bottom line, Paul knew they said he taught ok to sin Rom 3:8 proves it, so he took the vow for James to show he did not do that.

Then he was right, he did not break temple laws at the visit, and he was defending the resurrection not promoting law, case closed, all to easily.

 

[StephanieSomer]

With all due respect, no offense to our friends in the MJ movement, but Paul fought this belief system the most. The Jews for the most part were an easy battle for Paul in the theological arena, it was black and white, they did not know the Lord. They were a tough battle in the natural though, as the synagogue leaders ordered Paul's back to be opened up 5 times, 39 lashes. But the circumcision, after all, were believers in the Lord, but they tried to impose Judaism on the church. Now "believers" did not mean they were all actually saved, but for the most part they either were, or it was presumed they were.

Acts 15:2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

That's a bit short-sighted. Paul meant much more than simply Jews when he used the term "circumcision". A careful reading of the entirety of his writings will show that he used the term to encompass all effort-based soteriological systems, not just the Jews. Most of what he wrote concerning "the circumcision" applies equally well to all other systems which require works to be saved. Sadly, there is just as much of a works-based soteriological emphasis within the Church as there ever was within the rabbinical system. And it is just as contrary to the Gospel as the Judaizers of Paul's day.

 

[bugkiller]

wow..ok, 21, 24, 25, 26, 28, Paul was talking about the resurrection, he was not promoting law, he said he was on trial, being judged because of that.

your verse below where you quote LlOJ prove it, he was about the resurrection.

Acts 25, no, he did not IN THAT INSTANCE break rules, and bring a greek into the temple.

I never saw a post like this before, you're first half you seem to act like Paul was of law, but right in your second set of verses, he said he was about the resurrection, not the law!


23:6 Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.”

24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.


25:19 Rather they had certain points of dispute with him about their own religion and about a certain Jesus, who was dead, but whom Paul asserted to be alive. (resurrection)


. Acts 26:22 To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: 23 that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, (resurrection)he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.”

Confusion is very necessary. Not much surprises me any more.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

That's a bit short-sighted. Paul meant much more than simply Jews when he used the term "circumcision". A careful reading of the entirety of his writings will show that he used the term to encompass all effort-based soteriological systems, not just the Jews. Most of what he wrote concerning "the circumcision" applies equally well to all other systems which require works to be saved. Sadly, there is just as much of a works-based soteriological emphasis within the Church as there ever was within the rabbinical system. And it is just as contrary to the Gospel as the Judaizers of Paul's day.

but the verse you quoted, agrees with me, the circumcision were the Judaizers, Luke said so too in Acts 11.

 

[bugkiller]

Acts 28, no he did not do any crimes against the temple when in jerusalem, felix, festus, the council of chapter 23, and Agrippa agreed, you are trying to act like paul was a messianic, when he was not!

He was on trial for temple defilement, but really as he said, it was because he believed in the resurrection which proved the jews wrong to kill the messiah! That was why they tried to kill him, that was the real reason, Paul said so.

If one reads the forum and pays attention they will find people are still trying to silence the truth by assassination. They don't much care what kind of assassination it is. Here if they can't get you banned they assassinate character. Same thing as murder. No wait they don't understand the law as it only deals with physical murder. The words of Jesus are misunderstood and refused.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Confusion is very necessary for him. Not much surprises me any more.

bugkiller

Anyone reading Acts 21-26 can see the facts!

Be blessed bro!