Ten Commandments in the Garden of Eden

[sawdust]

Lucifer sinned in heaven therefore he broke God's law in heaven.

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone say there is sin in heaven. I was always taught heaven is perfect and without sin.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone say there is sin in heaven. I was always taught heaven is perfect and without sin.

Why do you think Lucifer was kicked out of heaven?

 

[sawdust]

Why do you think Lucifer was kicked out of heaven?

He sinned, but where did he sin? You assume it was in heaven but like I said, I've never heard anyone teach anything other than heaven being perfect and without sin. If God is too impotent to prevent sin in His own domain??? The thought is unbearable.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

He sinned, but where did he sin? You assume it was in heaven but like I said, I've never heard anyone teach anything other than heaven being perfect and without sin. If God is too impotent to prevent sin in His own domain??? The thought is unbearable.

Lucifer was cast out of heaven because he sinned (broke God's law) Ezekiel 28:16 Isaiah 14:12 Romans 4:15

God gives everyone free will including the angles. If He were to force one to love Him He would have created robots, but God wants us to love and obey Him from our own free will, because anything less is forced love which is not pure.

 

[GenemZ]

Why do you think Lucifer was kicked out of heaven?

Kicked out because of how he sinned while on the prehistoric earth. Not for sinning while in heaven.
He is allowed access to heaven, but his home is now confined to the lower atmosphere of the earth.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked ​

according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the ​

spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." ​

​

Ephesians 2:1-2​

The Greek word (Aer) we see commonly translated "air" speaks of the lower atmosphere around thew planet.

The ancient Greeks used two words for air.
Aer meant the dim lower atmosphere, and aether meant the bright upper atmosphere above the clouds.

grace and peace .......

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Kicked out because of how he sinned while on the prehistoric earth. Not for sinning while in heaven.
He is allowed access to heaven, but his home is now confined to the lower atmosphere of the earth.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked ​

according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the ​

spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." ​

​

Ephesians 2:1-2​

The Greek word (Aer) we see commonly translated "air" speaks of the lower atmosphere around thew planet.

The ancient Greeks used two words for air.
Aer meant the dim lower atmosphere, and aether meant the bright upper atmosphere above the clouds.

grace and peace .......

Lucifer was a covering cherub until iniquity was found in him.

Ezekiel 20:14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

 

[GDL]

I will have to come back to you later....

When you have enough Bible knowledge to think with.

I didn't think you could provide a meaningful answer, but I had some time to verify it. Thanks for the quick resolution.

 

[sawdust]

Lucifer was cast out of heaven because he sinned (broke God's law) Ezekiel 28:16 Isaiah 14:12 Romans 4:15

God gives everyone free will including the angles. If He were to force one to love Him He would have created robots, but God wants us to love and obey Him from our own free will, because anything less is forced love which is not pure.

So God let sin into heaven then? I would be very interested to know who you learned that from. Like I said, every bit of teaching I have ever received all said there is no sin, never has been sin and never will be sin in heaven.

And please, don't just keep repeating Satan sinned and was cast out of heaven. It doesn't answer my question as to where he sinned or how heaven can be heaven if God allowed even one sin to enter.

 

[GenemZ]

I didn't think you could provide a meaningful answer, but I had some time to verify it. Thanks for the quick resolution.

Can't answer someone when he does not have enough information to grasp it.

That is the problem. And, its not a new one. Not one to be ashamed of...

It happens to all growing believers at some time in their walk.

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear."

John 16:12​

In this case.... it would require teaching several foundational truths and have them to be understood. Then what you are now not getting would be in a setting for you to think for yourself what to decide. Right now is not a good time for that.

 

[GenemZ]

Lucifer was a covering cherub until iniquity was found in him.

Ezekiel 20:14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

Originally...Before man. the earth was created for angels.

Job 38:1-7

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?​

Heaven the angels had free access to until the rebellion of Satan took place. But, their dominion was to be on the prehistoric earth.

Look! Satan wanted to raise himself up above the clouds from where he was located on earth. (Isaiah 14:13-14)

You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne
above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on
the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”​

Satan was on earth, below heaven, when he made his evil proclamation as he fell!


grace and peace ..............................

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So God let sin into heaven then?

God never created Lucifer to sin, He created him perfect Ezekiel 28:15 until iniquity was found in him.

I would be very interested to know who you learned that from.

I found it in the Word of God

Ezekiel 28:14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

Revelation 12: 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Like I said, every bit of teaching I have ever received all said there is no sin, never has been sin and never will be sin in heaven.

Thats why I like to get my teachings and verify everything from scripture.

And please, don't just keep repeating Satan sinned and was cast out of heaven. It doesn't answer my question as to where he sinned or how heaven can be heaven if God allowed even one sin to enter.

’You were on the holy mountain of God... until iniquity was found in you.... war broke out in heaven and the dragon (Satan- who sinned from the beginning 1 John 3:8) was cast out”... seems clear.

Do you have scripture that says Lucifer sinned somewhere other than heaven?

 

[sawdust]

So God let sin into heaven then?

God never created Lucifer to sin, He created him perfect Ezekiel 28:15 until iniquity was found in him.

Why can't people answer the questions they're asked?

Did God let sin into the third heaven, His domain? Yes or no?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why can't people answer the questions they're asked?

Did God let sin into the third heaven, His domain? Yes or no?

God allowed free will in heaven which resulted in sin and Lucifer being thrown out of heaven as the scripture states. Why would there be war in heaven if there was no sin and everything was perfect as you state? Why would Lucifer- Satan be thrown out of heaven if he was obeying God? Sin separates us from God and obedience to Him is what will reconcile us back to Him. Revelation 22:14. Lucifer/Satan and his angels made their choice and their fates are sealed- we still have decisions to make that will either lead us to the same fate as the father of lies or lead us to God. We are promised at His Second Coming there will be no more sin, the saints will live with Christ forever, but I don’t think God is taking away free will.

 

[sawdust]

God allowed free will in heaven which resulted in sin and Lucifer being thrown out of heaven as the scripture states. Why would there be war in heaven if there was no sin and everything was perfect as you state? Why would Lucifer- Satan be thrown out of heaven if he was obeying God? Sin separates us from God and obedience to Him is what will reconcile us back to Him. Revelation 22:14. Lucifer/Satan and his angels made their choice and their fates are sealed- we still have decisions to make that will either lead us to the same fate as the father of lies or lead us to God. We are promised at His Second Coming there will be no more sin, the saints will live with Christ forever, but I don’t think God is taking away free will.

There are 3 heavens. Maybe you got the wrong heaven.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There are 3 heavens. Maybe you got the wrong heaven.

There are not three heavens, only one where God dwells and Lucifer was kicked out of, but please feel free to make any of your cases through scriptures.

Paul is not referring to different levels of heaven but the sky and outer space. There is one heaven where God dwells, our Father thou art in heaven.

 

[GDL]

Can't answer someone when he does not have enough information to grasp it.

That is the problem. And, its not a new one. Not one to be ashamed of...

It happens to all growing believers at some time in their walk.

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear."

John 16:12​

In this case.... it would require teaching several foundational truths and have them to be understood. Then what you are now not getting would be in a setting for you to think for yourself what to decide. Right now is not a good time for that.

Nice theory. I think it's simply that you don't understand Law & are not familiar with the work that has been done to attempt to identify its origination.

 

[GenemZ]

Nice theory. I think it's simply that you don't understand Law & are not familiar with the work that has been done to attempt to identify its origination.

Identify its origin? Are you coming from a secular perspective?

That is what I have been sensing about your approach.

.........

 

[GenemZ]

God allowed free will in heaven which resulted in sin and Lucifer being thrown out of heaven as the scripture states.

Satan was thrown out of heaven as his home. But, not thrown out of heaven as to be banished. He still has access to heaven.

Satan became a sinner because of how he reacted to God when God had him working on the prehistoric earth. He hated the work God had assigned him in running the prehistoric world. Satan wanted to do things his way, not God's. Satan desired to replace God. It happened on earth. God would not allow for sin to originate in heaven.

After Satan fell? Than he no longer was able to experience the freedom he had known of being in heaven, that he had known prior to his rebellion against God. In that sense he was thrown out of heaven as his home. Now he is the ruler of the lower atmosphere on earth.

He can still access heaven. .. Satan still has access to heaven today. For he is free to accuse the brethren before God day or night (Revelation 12:10). And, as seen in Job (Job 1:6-19) we see Satan in action during a gathering of angels when Satan accused Job before the Lord of wrongdoing.

grace and peace ................

 

[GDL]

Identify its origin? Are you coming from a secular perspective?

That is what I have been sensing about your approach.

.........

Yes - origin meaning when. No.

With respect, which has not been shown to me, your sensing is off.

I responded to your use of Ez28 and asked what standard God used to judge blamelessness and wickedness. I pointed out that these 2 words carry through Scripture and have to do with conforming or not conforming to a standard and one of them is correlated to sin.

This seems clearly to be a question about Scripture, more Scripture, Scriptural terminology, and God's Law. It seems quite a stretch for this to be anything from a secular perspective. If you've made a mistake, you're forgiven.

So, according to what did God judge the blamelessness and wickedness discussed in Ez28? When did God actually enact and instruct His standards for His creatures?

 

[GenemZ]

Yes - origin meaning when. No.

With respect, which has not been shown to me, your sensing is off.

I responded to your use of Ez28 and asked what standard God used to judge blamelessness and wickedness. I pointed out that these 2 words carry through Scripture and have to do with conforming or not conforming to a standard and one of them is correlated to sin.

This seems clearly to be a question about Scripture, more Scripture, Scriptural terminology, and God's Law. It seems quite a stretch for this to be anything from a secular perspective. If you've made a mistake, you're forgiven.

So, according to what did God judge the blamelessness and wickedness discussed in Ez28? When did God actually enact and instruct His standards for His creatures?

You are approaching this in a manner that is foreign to how my thinking works.

In the manner you express yourself? To me is like a group lawyers discussing an issue. They approach it in a manner which another not trained in their discipline (regardless of his own IQ) will not be able to relate back to them as they ask.

I responded to your use of Ez28 and asked what standard God used to judge blamelessness and wickedness.

God was using His own standard.

A standard that we as believers must study the Word and learn to grow in grace to understand.

One more time. What do you mean by ":standard?"

When you asked, "by what standard?" I was perplexed. Its obviously God's standard.

Ezekiel 28 is to be understood to have been expressed according to God's standard.

Now, when you stated "standard?" You may have chosen a wrong word. That is possible.

Maybe? Try another term, and please ask me again if you wish.


grace and peace .............................