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Sections of Scripture like Heb6:6 & John15:6 have been touched on from both perspectives - losing salvation & simply discipline of the believer (and maybe even being non-believers). What's your thinking & can you explain beyond what they just "appear" to be saying. Quoting Gill or any other source you agree with is fine.
Well, this is odd. Your posts seem to be in agreement with Doug and GDL.Actually it isn't possible to lose salvation, there are just passages that appear so, like "depart from the faith," "fallen from grace," etc.
Yes, there are dishonest people, like the Pharisees, who only paid "lip service" to God. But I'm talking about faith in Christ. For salvation. Those who make a profession but don't really mean it aren't saved, obviously. Like the term "false brethren" mentioned by Paul, twice.This is what Jesus meant by "they honoureth Me with their lips (by professing and confessing falsely); but their heart is far from Me" (Mat 15:8). James said the same thing in 2:18. "A may may say . . ." Profess and confess are the same thing in the Greek, such as in Tit 1:16:
G3670 - homologeō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
OK, for the 401st time, we've been over this. Salvation is assured the MOMENT one believes. I've proven it from the Bible.For the 400th time, only those believing have eternal life.
Yet, you have not proven your claim from the Bible. And John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both are clear that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".If you don't believe at any point in time (and by this in mean that if we deliberately abandon the faith and repudiate it) you do not have eternal life.
Again, I'm just sorry that in spite of all your Greek training that you just don't comprehend the FACTS.Despite your ill conceived attempts to say otherwise, the Greek does not foster or otherwise support your assertions that faith is a matter of one and done theology!
You're just speaking from your own emotions about how offended you are about the fact that a child of God (who remains a child of God) will still enter heaven even if their faith fails. You just don't understand grace.And the overwhelming message of scripture as well as common sense and experience cannot be ignored in opposition to your claims.
Eternal life isn't a "hope". It's a present tense reality, which you, of all people, should know. From the moment one believes.We believe and assert that only those who are actually believing have the hope of eternal life
Yet, you have NO evidence at all for such thinking.and that the point of eternal life becoming a reality is, generally speaking, death or the return of Christ; thus we must be actively believing at that point to enter into life eternal.
Welcome, and appreciate your instructional inquiries! Hebrews 6:4-6 is entirely hypothetical and is a hyperbolic expression, which is mostly obvious in v 6. It begins with an assumption and not a determination, e.g. "if they fall away. . ." This means in order to be saved again (which is "impossible," you can only be lost or saved once) the Lord Jesus would have to be "crucified again" (impossible), which would mean depicting Him again as a shamed person (Gal 3:13).Sections of Scripture like Heb6:6 & John15:6 have been touched on from both perspectives - losing salvation & simply discipline of the believer (and maybe even being non-believers). What's your thinking & can you explain beyond what they just "appear" to be saying. Quoting Gill or any other source you agree with is fine.
Thanks.
This is something I've already posted to attempt to address this question: What the Lord Jesus means by “believeth in Me” (Jhn 11:25, 26; 12:46) intends genuine faith, not just a said faith in profession only (Jam 2:18; Mat 15:8), but is manifested by an unceasing walk in the fruit of the Spirit in and through those reborn. Therefore to believe in God is different from believing in the things of this life only, as one cannot truly profess faith in Him and latter say he disbelieves, which shows to be a worldly and natural faith of man, and not the faith only from the Spirit (Gal 5:22).
I'm think we may not be understanding one another. How about - "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him" (Tit 1:16).I said:
"there isn't anywhere in the Bible that warns of "faith in profession only".
But I'm talking about faith in Christ. For salvation. Those who make a profession but don't really mean it aren't saved, obviously. Like the term "false brethren" mentioned by Paul, twice.
True, genuine believers will not cease to walk in the Spirit. But all hypocrites and apostates will eventually cease from their false profession and walk.[/QUOTE]I said:
"There is no such thing as "an unceasing walk""
There have always been those who profess to be saved but in reality are not saved (Spirit not in them), which will always eventually show, for "your sin will surely find you out" (Num 32:23).Not true for any one. And I gave the proof by all the warnings Paul gave (commands) regarding the Spirit.
One who truly professes faith, which is indicated mostly by practical walk in God's love to one another, is guaranteed to continue to "desire and do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13).Genuine professions don't guarantee an "unceasing walk".
Eternal life isn't a "hope". It's a present tense reality, which you, of all people, should know. From the moment one believes.
For the 400th time, only those believing have eternal life. If you don't believe at any point in time (and by this in mean that if we deliberately abandon the faith and repudiate it) you do not have eternal life. Despite your ill conceived attempts to say otherwise, the Greek does not foster or otherwise support your assertions that faith is a matter of one and done theology!
A few observations from a couple sections of Scripture:
NKJ John 6:51-56 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed1, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
- Eating & drinking is not a one-time event, but a repeated necessity for life.
- Jesus says this eating & drinking means 2 things: gives us life, and causes us to abide in Him & He in us.
- Jesus says if we're not doing this eating & drinking, then we have no life in ourselves.
- The problem for the separating belief and abiding view (saying momentary belief is all that necessary for having eternal life, and abiding is just a fellowship matter) - is Jesus here connects inextricably them:
--- If we [repeatedly] eat & drink of Him - then we have life & abide
--- If we do not [repeatedly] eat & drink of Him - then we have no life & we don't abide.
- There is no having eternal life & not abiding.
NKJ 1 Jn. 2:22-29 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when1 He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
- Continual Belief (not denying) that Jesus is the Christ, is abiding in the Son & the Father
- Continual Abiding in the Son & the Father is necessary for the receipt of eternal life promised by God.
- The continuing context of this is "doing righteousness" - which is ultimately continuing in obedience to God
- - There is no having eternal life & not abiding.
NKJ 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
- By the use of the words "either" & "also" in 1J2:23 (earlier context) - John speaks of "having" not only the Father, but also the "Son."
- To have the Son & to thereby have life - one must abide/remain in the belief that Jesus is the Christ
- There is no condition here that provides for believing but not abiding for eternal life
NKJ John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
- Per the context, to abide in Him is to abide in His love.
- The ongoing keeping His commandments (ongoing obeying Him) is to abide in Him
- The ongoing belief that He is the Christ is to abide in Him and have eternal life
- The repeated eating & drinking of Him is to abide in Him and have eternal life
There's no room here for a momentary, temporary, one-time belief for eternal life. Soteriology like any other doctrine needs to be derived from the whole Word of God, and not by isolating a few verses that seem to says that it's [undefined] belief only.
Biblical Belief is not momentary, or temporary. If it was, then abiding would not be necessary for eternal life, but it clearly is.
but I do fear that it is another gospel that you have been hoodwinked into believing
Good question. Thanks. Paul made the statement a number of times in various epistles like "I would not have you ignorant, brethren...". This indicates that believers can be ignorant of biblical principles. So I don't see Titus 1:16 as referring to "professors" but not "possessors". There are believers who have been deceived by Satan, and have followed in line with all the "social justice" lies that are out there today. They have good intentions, but they have no discernment between good and evil.I'm think we may not be understanding one another. How about - "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him" (Tit 1:16).
No, I didn't say that. I pointed out Gal 5:16, which i a command to follow. In fact, Paul sets up a contrast in v.16.True, genuine believers will not cease to walk in the Spirit.
I don't know that. I haven't interviewed any of them.But all hypocrites and apostates will eventually cease from their false profession and walk.
I would suspect the vast majority of those who think they are saved have been deceived by a lot of false doctrine and a very watered down gospel message. Such as the "social gospel" and things like that.There have always been those who profess to be saved but in reality are not saved (Spirit not in them), which will always eventually show, for "your sin will surely find you out" (Num 32:23).
I don't see any guarantee in Phil 2:13. "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."One who truly professes faith, which is indicated mostly by practical walk in God's love to one another, is guaranteed to continue to "desire and do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13).
No, you haven't.The scripture I cited prove otherwise, FG
No, I haven't.I notice you conveniently leave those out of your rebuttal!
You've given no evidence. Unlike myself.It is another sad example of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the evidence in front of you.
Wrong again. Condemnation is for those who "have not believed".John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12have been dealt with ad nauseam and cannot stand the test of Greek grammar and syntax.
May I point out that a claim is far from a demonstration.the necessity of maintaining the faith we had at the beginning has been demonstrated time and time again by many of us here
Claim, not demonstration.and for a very long period of time by some of us, and my efforts are but one of the latest in this procession.
Party line? lol. What an imagination!! My views come straight from the words in the Bible. If one believes what you claim (not demonstrate), then we just can't trust ANY English translation.I've only been on this forum for a few months, and my thoughts of you have changed greatly over that time from just one with a different opinion, to one that is unable to think outside the framework of what he's been indoctrinated to believe, simply regurgitating the "party line" and talking points
Nice ad hominem there. Which you seem to enjoy.much like a JW or other cult-like organization.
I've been waiting for your evidence. All I've seen is your opinions.I am now reaching the point of pure pity, for you don't seem to be able to truly deal with the evidences presented to you.
I'm not "fighting so hard" for temporary belief, as if I support such nonsense.Knew you'd think so.
At this point it boggles the mind (as they say) that some can fight so hard for temporary belief for EL.
Welcome, and appreciate your instructional inquiries! Hebrews 6:4-6 is entirely hypothetical and is a hyperbolic expression, which is mostly obvious in v 6. It begins with an assumption and not a determination, e.g. "if they fall away. . ." This means in order to be saved again (which is "impossible," you can only be lost or saved once) the Lord Jesus would have to be "crucified again" (impossible), which would mean depicting Him again as a shamed person (Gal 3:13).
Verses 4, 5 I believe are what many are confused about because I think they do describe genuine faith and salvation, but this is designed for the intention of demonstrating the impossibility of a true believer never losing salvation, because in that case they could never be saved, and is why verses 9-12 declare they would never encounter such a loss.
So, without all the Greek gymnastics, just provide your own English translation of each verse. Because I still don't know what you think the verses say.
NET Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance, since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8 and holding him up to contempt.
The real bottom line is that Arminians are just too offended by the fact that a child of God can cease to believe and still enter heaven.
Firstly, please let me know if you're getting this view from a commentary I can read from the link you sent. I glanced through Gill earlier but am not recalling at the moment what he says re: Heb6.
My read:
Heb5:9 speaks of salvation by obeying Christ, our High Priest. Heb5:11 - 6:3 begins a rebuke & speaks of the need to grow from spiritual infancy to maturity/perfection and getting beyond the basics. Heb6:3 says we’ll do this “if only/indeed” (an intensified "if" clause) God permits/allows.
This section of Hebrews has the writer chastising his readers for their lack of progress in spiritual growth. "If indeed God allows" is a warning to back up the rebuke.
There is no hypothetical or hyperbolic language in 6:4—6. The KJV & NKJ translations insert an “if” at the beginning of 6:6, but it is an interpretation of the participle that most other English translations don’t agree with. FWIW, nor do I.
So, 6:4 continues from the warning of God’s allowing or disallowing the advance to maturity/ perfection with an explanatory “gar”:
NET Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance, since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8 and holding him up to contempt.
This is saying God may not allow those who do not heed His commands to grow up (in 5:13-14 the issue in growth is to become well exercised in our faculties to judge both good & bad according to His “Word of Righteousness” as opposed to the infant who is unlearned/unskilled in the WoR).
He’s given us all we need for this growth. It’s a part of what He put His Son on the cross to enable us to become. It’s about becoming learned & skilled in righteousness. And if think this is a joke or something not to pursue with all we have in us, then He at some point may disallow our advance for holding “His Son in contempt.”
I agree that 4-5 do describe Biblical Faith. 6:6 speaks of falling away. There again, 6:6 begins with “and” so is a continuation of the list of things begun in 6:4.
6:7-8 speak of the blessing of growth & conversely the destruction for falling away.
6:9-11 is encouragement to not be in this condition which was based in non-growth and worsened from there.
6:12 is about not becoming lazy/sluggish and instead imitating those who inherit the promises through faith & patience. And please notice the continuing faith here.
What concerns me with your interpretations is that this is (I think) the 3rd time you are bringing forth this concept of “appearing” and “hyperbole” and now “hypothetical.” I was schooled to think some of this also, but I no longer do.
These warnings about falling away are not hyperbole in my view now. Nor is the warning about treating with contempt what Jesus died for. His death provided for us to become grown-ups in knowledge of and living righteousness in love/obedience to Him & to our Father. He clear the way & provided for our being raised & trained to overcome sin to increasing degrees.
Being lazy about this growing up is ultimately sin in itself since we are commanded to grow up (2Pet3:18) and rebuked for not doing so (Heb5; 1Cor3).
Also, the word translated as “committed apostasy” in the NET translation above is parapipto. If you chase this word around the Text and analyze it lexically, it is dealing with a concept of sin. It literally means to fall aside. So think of our walking & then fall aside where we don't get back to the right path.
A non-presuppositional interpretation of these verses IMO give the impression this warning is meaningful & treating Christ with contempt is not good.
Turning them into hyperbole seems eisegetical to support a specific soteriology.
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