Tax

[rjs330]

You seem incapable of an ability to, or simply unwilling to, distinguish between God, who is ultimate justice, and the Bible, which was written by fallible men of their time, inspired by God, but not equal to Him. It's a major fallacy. You would do well to correct it, even if you do not want to be convinced against your will. I merely suggest that, at some time congenial to you, you pause and give the matter some thought.

Best wishes, Strivax.

How do you know God is the ultimate,justice? In fact how do,you know anything about God? The bible is what tells us about God. Who he is and what he does and what he demands. If it was not for the bible all we should know is that he exists and he is powerful and is glorious. We would know nothing else. The inspiration of God made what they wrote correct and true. To say otherwise diminishes Gods ability to,inspire truth. Which diminishes God. The men did not write what they wished to write and make up their own subjects and ideas. Of they did there is NO WAY to distinguish between truth and falsehood in the bible.

John said in the beginning was the word and the word was,made,flesh. Is that true or is it false? Is it his own idea made up out of his fallible human mind or was it inspired by God as truth? God is powerful enough to overcome our fallibility.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[rjs330]

Bottom line is asking the government to be fair and using God as the example of what fair is, is not out of line. If God says 10% from everyone is fair then that's fair.

If course we as people would have to quit demanding so much from our government. Its really our own fault as to why the taxes are so high. We keep wanting the government to support us and give to us. I haven't done the math, but I wonder how much,money the government would make or loose if everyone paid 10%. Including all corporations and business entitites on their profits.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[RDKirk]

Bottom line is asking the government to be fair and using God as the example of what fair is, is not out of line. If God says 10% from everyone is fair then that's fair.

God never said "10% from everyone is fair."

Wait, there is one place where scripture does speak of "fairness" with regard to money. That's in 2 Corinthians 8, which references Exodus 16, and states that everyone should have exact equality.

 

[rjs330]

God never said "10% from everyone is fair."

Wait, there is one place where scripture does speak of "fairness" with regard to money. That's in 2 Corinthians 8, which references Exodus 16, and states that everyone should have exact equality.

No, but don't you think it is implied by the tithe? Perhaps fair is not the right word. Maybe just? I don't know but if God said everyone regardless of status has to give 10% then I think the implication is that it's fair and just. I don't know what else you would call it.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[RDKirk]

No, but don't you think it is implied by the tithe? Perhaps fair is not the right word. Maybe just? I don't know but if God said everyone regardless of status has to give 10% then I think the implication is that it's fair and just. I don't know what else you would call it.

A 10% fee is found hundreds of years earlier than the Mosaic Law in the Law of Hammurabi--which was the law Abraham knew and obeyed when he tithed to Melchizedek only from what he gained while in Melchizedek's land (the entire area was under the Law of Hammurabi).

The primary characteristic of man-made tithes is that they always take from the poorer and give to the richer. The difference of God's Mosaic Law tithe is that it took from the wealthy and gave to the poor--which is "fair" in God's book.

 

[Hank77]

A 10% fee is found hundreds of years earlier than the Mosaic Law in the Law of Hammurabi--which was the law Abraham knew and obeyed when he tithed to Melchizedek only from what he gained while in Melchizedek's land (the entire area was under the Law of Hammurabi).

The primary characteristic of man-made tithes is that they always take from the poorer and give to the richer. The difference of God's Mosaic Law tithe is that it took from the wealthy and gave to the poor--which is "fair" in God's book.

The OT tithe was Never money, only agricultural crops, including animals.
Carpenters, masons, tent makers, garment makers, metal workers, etc. did not ever pay tithes at all.

You probably know this but many people who are in churches or listen to TV evangelists that demand or teach tithing don't.

 

[RDKirk]

The OT tithe was Never money, only agricultural crops, including animals.
Carpenters, masons, tent makers, garment makers, metal workers, etc. did not ever pay tithes at all.

Well, I'll start with my last statement: The difference of God's Mosaic Law tithe is that it took from the wealthy and gave to the poor. The poor did not pay tithes, the poor received tithes.

The primary tithe was a festival in which everyone in Israel participated. It was a giant, national potluck dinner. Everyone was supposed to bring plenty of food. Those who were wealthy brought more than those who were poor--by that 10% proportion. Those who were extremely poor brought little or nothing. I don't know for sure that non-farmers did not participate because participation in the feast was called to be universal.

Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. -Deuteronomy 14.

Although this provision was primarily for farmers traveling too far to convey actual food, it would also likely apply to the carpenters, masons, tent makers, garment makers, metal workers, etc. Everyone was called to be part of the tithe feast.

I'll also say this for the benefit of people who only know about the Mosaic tithe the bits their pastors chose to feed them:

"Tithe off the top." Sorry, that's a lie. Scripture says:

Every tithe of the herd and flock--every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod--will be holy to the LORD. -- Leviticus 27

That's not the first animal, that's the tenth animal. A farmer with only nine animals would be too animal-poor to tithe any animal at all.

"Tithe only the best." Nope, another lie. Scripture says:

No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed. -- Leviticus 27

The tithe feast was the big deal for God. Second to that was the triennial tithe for the welfare of the priests--who served the people but were not given land of their own to raise their own livestock and crops.

That is why the Levites have no share or inheritance among their fellow Israelites; the LORD is their inheritance, as the LORD your God told them. -- Deuteronomy 10

The Levites, however, do not get a portion among you, because the priestly service of the LORD is their inheritance. -- Joshua 18

A couple of things interesting here. Although there is considerable New Testament conversation about managing money and meeting the needs of everyone, "tithing" is not mentioned in any of those conversations.

The specific OT passages referenced in the NT for handling money are Exodus 16:18 and Deuteronomy 25:4.

 

[Hank77]

I do think it is important that the tithe was only and always from the increase of the natural gifts that God gave. Not from the skills, artistic abilities, or the cleverness of man.
Lev. 27:30, 32; Numb. 18:27, 28; Deut. 12:17; 14:22, 23; 26 12; 2 Chron. 31:5, 6; Neh. 10:37; 13:5; Mal. 3:10; Matt. 23:23; Luke 11: 42

 

[rjs330]

A 10% fee is found hundreds of years earlier than the Mosaic Law in the Law of Hammurabi--which was the law Abraham knew and obeyed when he tithed to Melchizedek only from what he gained while in Melchizedek's land (the entire area was under the Law of Hammurabi).

The primary characteristic of man-made tithes is that they always take from the poorer and give to the richer. The difference of God's Mosaic Law tithe is that it took from the wealthy and gave to the poor--which is "fair" in God's book.

Are you saying God did not institute a tithe of 10% for his people? God's tithe was 10% from everyone. He also required that people leave something of their fields for the poor. Although he did not say how much.

So it's still fair by God's standards that no matter how rich you are you still,give 10%. If you are poor you give 10%. But if you have land you also give some of the leftovers to the poor. But God never stated how much that was. So he left that up to the land owner.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Hank77]

There were the Levitical cities were the Levites had homes. Numbers says 48 cities. Outside the cities land was set aside for the use of the Levites to raise the herd animals they had received as tithes. They did not own the land as it belonged to the tribe that they were assigned to.
King David set up 24 courses that ran twice a year. So each Levite and priest spent only 1 wk twice a year plus the three festival wks serving at the temple. The rest of the year they were serving their tribe from these cities. Numbers 35, Joshua 20, 21 and First Chronicles 6

 

[Hank77]

God's tithe was 10% from everyone.

Do you have scripture that supports the statement that tithes were paid by everyone? Where do you see any command or any example of any tithing law being anything besides agricultural products?

 

[rjs330]

Do you have scripture that supports the statement that tithes were paid by everyone? Where do you see any command or any example of any tithing law being anything besides agricultural products?

Sorry I should have clarified here. Everyone being all those with land and agricultural products or herds. As another poster stated every tenth animal was tithed. If you only had nine, no tithe. So there was a place where someone didn't have enough to,give with.

The point I am trying to make here was that God's demand of tithe was 10%. If you were a small owner with a small,amount of land or herds say 11 sheep you paid 1 sheep. If you had a herd of 10000 sheep you paid 1000. 10%. God demanded the same from the uber wealthy as he did the small time farmer. But as noted there was a cut off of no tithe if you had less,than 10 animals.

We could get into the nitty gritty of tithing here, but let's,not. Lets keep it focused on taxes. I still believe it to be fair if the government taxes all people the same following a,principle of God regarding what he established as equality of treatment.

Remember when the Israelites wanted a king and His warned them about what would happen? He warned them that he would demand more than what God wanted. This established the thought that God's plan was the better one.

I have no issue with some folks paying no taxes. But right now that's about 50% of Americans. That's off kilter to me. Why don't we just establish a poverty line and all those below it don't pay,taxes. What they make they keep. In,not talking about taking it from them and giving it back after they file. I am talking about they keep it all and not pay in out of their checks,at,all.

Then the rest of us pay a flat tax. All people and all businesses. No deductions. Whatever am out you made that pay period you pay a flat percentage. You never have to file a form. Wouldn't that be nice? No surprises at the end,of the year. It would be equitable for all.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Hank77]

Sorry I should have clarified here. Everyone being all those with land and agricultural products or herds. As another poster stated every tenth animal was tithed. If you only had nine, no tithe. So there was a place where someone didn't have enough to,give with.

The point I am trying to make here was that God's demand of tithe was 10%. If you were a small owner with a small,amount of land or herds say 11 sheep you paid 1 sheep. If you had a herd of 10000 sheep you paid 1000. 10%. God demanded the same from the uber wealthy as he did the small time farmer. But as noted there was a cut off of no tithe if you had less,than 10 animals.

We could get into the nitty gritty of tithing here, but let's,not. Lets keep it focused on taxes. I still believe it to be fair if the government taxes all people the same following a,principle of God regarding what he established as equality of treatment.

Remember when the Israelites wanted a king and His warned them about what would happen? He warned them that he would demand more than what God wanted. This established the thought that God's plan was the better one.

I have no issue with some folks paying no taxes. But right now that's about 50% of Americans. That's off kilter to me. Why don't we just establish a poverty line and all those below it don't pay,taxes. What they make they keep. In,not talking about taking it from them and giving it back after they file. I am talking about they keep it all and not pay in out of their checks,at,all.

Then the rest of us pay a flat tax. All people and all businesses. No deductions. Whatever am out you made that pay period you pay a flat percentage. You never have to file a form. Wouldn't that be nice? No surprises at the end,of the year. It would be equitable for all.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

I basically agree with you. I am for a flat tax across the board. Everyone would still have to file a return because of the different combinations of income. Businesses have to be allowed to take basic costs of doing business, and those who live off capital gains would still be required to estimate their tax burden and make estimated payment through out the year just as businesses do.
I voted for such a plan when I voted for Rand Paul.

 

[RDKirk]

I basically agree with you. I am for a flat tax across the board. Everyone would still have to file a return because of the different combinations of income. Businesses have to be allowed to take basic costs of doing business, and those who live off capital gains would still be required to estimate their tax burden and make estimated payment through out the year just as businesses do.
I voted for such a plan when I voted for Rand Paul.

Problem with a flat tax is that it won't provide enough money for the military, social security, and federal government expenses unless really is closer to 50% across the board.

Going back to the Mosaic Law when you look at all that God required, it comes to three things:

1. A per annum tithe per annum for the national feast from everyone except the poorest (people on a cash economy were to buy food, because everyone was required to participate).
2. A triennial tithe for the priests from everyone except the poorest.
3. Direct payments to Levites for duties beyond the priesthood they performed from everyone except the poorest.
4. As much as it took from the wealthy to meet the needs of widows and orphans.

When Israel became a monarchy, all those Mosaic Law requirements still existed, plus:

5. Whatever the king taxed for his prerogatives from everyone including the poorest.

 

[Hank77]

Problem with a flat tax is that it won't provide enough money for the military, social security, and federal government expenses unless really is closer to 50% across the board.

Social security and medicare do not fall under income tax.
I don't agree with your 50% figure, you are not looking at the money that is not collected because of loopholes in the tax laws.
But I realize you only want to discuss the tithe so maybe don't respond to posts about taxes today? Because you cannot expect others not to respond to your post when you do.

 

[RDKirk]

Social security and medicare do not fall under income tax.

In that case, you would not count any of the Levitical tithes as tax, because that's what they were all for in one way or another.

I don't agree with your 50% figure, you are not looking at the money that is not collected because of loopholes in the tax laws.

No I'm not looking at money that is not collected. Money not collected because of legal deductions or exemptions in the tax code is not tax.

But I realize you only want to discuss the tithe so maybe don't respond to posts about taxes today? Because you cannot expect others not to respond to your post when you do.

I'm responding to the idea that 10% is somehow "God's idea of a fair tax" when "God's idea" is not a tax at all--scripturally, God defined only what kings extract as taxes--and 10% would not be enough for what kings do.

 

[dhh712]

what is actually a fair tax. Should christians have to pay tithe on top of tax? Isnt tithing a form of tax, so if someones paying tithe and tax both isnt that a fair chunk of someomes wage?

What is your tax rate in your country and what percentage are you paying? Does your govt put taxes on everything?

And do these taxes get used for the welfare of everyone or do you think its wasted or spent on luxuries?

I'd like to know. And is it christian to avoid paying tax. Or maybe you can never avoid it?

While taxes can seem (and some definitely are) excessive, it is right and moral to pay taxes; definitely something a Christian must do. They should pay a tithe on top of the tax too, and often this does amount to a great percentage of one's income.

My tax is around the 25-30% range; I'm not certain for sure since I just moved, started a new job and just got married. I sure hate paying taxes and think they are used mostly for abuse and corruption. Yet, that is the price we pay to live within a governed country.

We have the option of voting out those who want to increase taxes. This is what I try to do. The party that makes the most sense to me (in my country) wants to do away with much of the income tax and return to the privatization of many things which are subsidized by the government. Yet this seems to incite much anxiety in people; it seems they don't think this would work, I suppose. At least, that what it appears to me since with the two major parties in power, it doesn't seem like there's going to be any major lessening of taxes any time soon. Just keep going up and up. Depressing.

 

[rjs330]

Some of the stuff I've read is the flat tax would be somewhere between 17-20%. And every,proposal I read also had a provision of a poverty or income line where those that fell below it didn't pay. If be all for that. Of course we also would have to cut government spending as well. But starting with cutting the IRS would be a good start.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[RDKirk]

We have the option of voting out those who want to increase taxes. This is what I try to do. The party that makes the most sense to me (in my country) wants to do away with much of the income tax and return to the privatization of many things which are subsidized by the government. Yet this seems to incite much anxiety in people; it seems they don't think this would work, I suppose.

That's because the nation has been there before. It was called the "gilded age" and many, many working people suffered while the wealthy played.

 

[RDKirk]

Some of the stuff I've read is the flat tax would be somewhere between 17-20%. And every,proposal I read also had a provision of a poverty or income line where those that fell below it didn't pay. If be all for that. Of course we also would have to cut government spending as well. But starting with cutting the IRS would be a good start.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Flat tax of 17-20% will work if spending is cut enough? Well, sure.

A flat tax of 5% would work if spending were cut enough.