Talking to deceased loved ones

[stephen583]

FYI - Cokeville is in Wyoming, not Arizona.

I remember the incident in the movie having taken place in Arizona, but I admit I was cooking supper when I put the dvd on, so I'm probably in error on that early aspect of the movie. The thing I liked most about this movie, is that for the most part it was presented from a very "neutral" viewpoint. More like a crime story, than a religious film. They never depicted the rescue of the children by angels. As I recall, there was a very brief scene, in which one child took hold of a hand and was led through the smoke.

The first half of the movie has to do with the perpetrator. Who he was. What his motives were. The fabrication and testing of the bomb. His assault on the school and taking the children and teachers hostage. How the event affected the town people. With the statements of the children and their account of the miracle, coming only at the end of the movie. I think if I were to make a movie about some "miraculous" supernatural event, this is exactly the way I would present it.

 

[cloudyday2]

I was extremely disturbed by this incident as well. It bothered me a lot. I even visited a psychiatrist at Slidell Memorial Hospital and recounted the incident to him. After a moment of thought, he said, "The odds of five people exhibiting schizophrenic behavior and hallucinating seeing and hearing the same thing simultaneously is virtually impossible". He continued, "If you remain disturbed by this event, I recommend you best seek the council of a clergyman". "It doesn't sound to me like I can help you". That was a sobering moment, up till then I thought it possible I might just be crazy.

Ideally you need something like written statements and names of the other four witnesses, so that a third party could interview them all at any time. You could have hallucinated the four witnesses or the reactions of the four other witnesses. Your memory might be a confabulation, so that you didn't even have a hallucination - you simply remember things that never happened. There are lots of plausible naturalistic explanations besides the extreme of five people hallucinating the same things. I assume that there was some written record, because you were a law officer, but the question is whether it included names and statements from all witnesses. Unfortunately the human instinct is to minimize the disturbing incident with giggles and forgetfulness. People involved usually are more concerned with coping personally instead of recording all the objective evidence possible for paranormal investigators that might come later. I had at least one experience where my mother and my secretary were both apparently present and reacting to at least some of what I was also observing. Instead of making a big deal out of it by asking them what they saw and so forth, I simply shrugged my shoulders and smiled to help others feel o.k. about it. Several months later I asked my mother if she remembered this, and she said "no", but the time delay makes it conceivable that she simply forgot. It was more memorable for me, because I had a context of similar events, and the final part of the experience was probably only visible to me. A lot of my experiences were like that, and it's frustrating now, because I don't know what was real. At the time when these things were frequently happening, I was focused on pretending that they were not happening, so that people would not think I was weird. I described a couple of experiences to my priest and my mother, but that was only a tiny fraction.

 

[cloudyday2]

^ @stephen583 , thanks for describing your experience. I hope my post didn't sound like I was being dismissive. I wanted to point out some alternative naturalistic explanations. Some people who aren't as familiar with hallucinations and confabulations can overlook possibilities. I've ruminated a lot on my own experiences and possible explanations. ... Anyway, I would hate to think that you thought I was being dismissive.

 

[FireDragon76]

I see nothing wrong with this practice, it's simply not necromancy.

 

[stephen583]

^ @stephen583 , thanks for describing your experience. I hope my post didn't sound like I was being dismissive. I wanted to point out some alternative naturalistic explanations. Some people who aren't as familiar with hallucinations and confabulations can overlook possibilities. I've ruminated a lot on my own experiences and possible explanations. ... Anyway, I would hate to think that you thought I was being dismissive.

Not at all. Having come from a background in Law Enforcement, I am probably one of the most skeptical people you'll ever meet. A Sherlock Holmes axiom frequently quoted by investigators states, "Once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains is the truth". That's why I visited a psychologist. However he dismissed the idea the incident might be attributed to hallucinations, schizophrenia, or mass hysteria. Believe me, I was desperately hoping that psychologist could offer some kind of naturalistic explanation for what happened in that house on Brookter Street.

For instance, people would occasionally rush into the sheriff's office hysterical, claiming their car had been stopped by a Flying Saucer on Interstate 10. After I got everyone calmed down, I explained to them that particular part of Interstate 10 adjoins thousands of acres of land belonging to the NASA/Michoud test facility. "Is it possible the UFO silently hovering over your automobile was some kind of experimental NASA/Military aircraft" ??? That seemed to me a more plausible explanation than some extra-terrestrial encounter.

In the Brookter Street incident, I was unable to come up with any rational alternative to explain what I encountered in that house.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Sometimes I find myself talking to deceased loves ones. It is a one-way conversation. A few times I might ask for help if that is possible. I don't know if deceased loved ones exist or if they might be too busy with problems of their own or there might be a process. Maybe the deceased person is limited to interceding with God on behalf of the living person. It is all open to speculation.

Anyway, here are my questions:

(1) How is my interaction with deceased loved ones different from prayer?

(2) Catholics and Orthodox and others pray to saints. They consider the deceased people to be awake in heaven, so praying to a deceased person is merely asking that deceased person to pray on your behalf.

(3) There are the Christians that believe in soul sleep. I assume they do not talk to their deceased loved ones.

(4) The OT has the story of Saul using a medium to ask Samuel for advice. Apparently Saul had outlawed mediums.

Sometimes I feel that praying to a deceased loved one is more sensible than praying to God, because I know my loved one existed in the past and I do not know if God ever existed at all.

Any thoughts? I hope to get perspectives from a variety of denominations.

CloudyDay, I used to talk to my dog. It was also a one-way conversation, as she never answered back, but she was a great listener. (She's gone now.)

According to your profile on your original post, you are agnostic; you aren't really sure if there's a God - such as the Christians know - or not. So nothing you do is serious compared to the initial problem of a relationship with God. Without the relationship with God, nothing else matters in the eternal context. For that reason, none of the questions you posted really have any substance here.

I can see where talking to a deceased relative is somewhat more comfortable than talking to God, whom you don't know and in your mind may or may not exist; and may or may not desire to hear from you. I talk to God all the time, who I know, who I know exists, and who I know is willing and eager to talk to me. Which is probably rather alien to you.

No one can logic themselves into or out of belief in God. It is God who provides the connection; YOUR part is to allow the connection. There's a lot of discussion about pre-destination, free will, the sovereign power of God and such and such and such ... However, everyone agrees one - a human - must agree to the 'connection' between God and man (or at least it 'seems' that way). So it in that sense, it is up to you.

Now the lawyer talk: The bit about dire warnings and such. God will NOT deal with a person who wants the benefits without the loyalty. God will NOT deal with a person who is comparison shopping for the 'best deal'. And if God is who Christians claim, He cannot be fooled.

The only evidence I can give is that of changed lives. I am a different, better person than I was in the past. Sometimes I'm not sure I'm closer to being what God wants than I was yesterday, but I'm certainly closer than I was ten years ago. This can be deceiving as well; I'm probably not what secular society thinks of as 'better' (I'm older than I used to be; I'm not rich and I don't live in a glamorous address) but I'm closer to how God wants me to be. No, I can't produce fire out of my ears and I can't tell what card you have in your hand, but I'm progressing.

You can too. And you can be sure about God. All you have to do is meet Him. You can feel His calling, or you wouldn't be here asking such questions. So He wants you to meet Him. As the cover of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" says, "Don't Panic!"

 

[dqhall]

CloudyDay, I used to talk to my dog. It was also a one-way conversation, as she never answered back, but she was a great listener. (She's gone now.)
"

My mother is Catholic. She started talking about how she could reach people through the "God line." She was delusional and and told my dad the local priest who was not physically present was in the room with her. Eventually she was diagnosed with vascular dementia and currently needs to be transported by wheel chair as it is hard for her to stand up and she cannot walk more than a few steps.

I would not pray to the dead. I would not pray to relatives or neighbors. If I want to communicate with others, I may use a phone, computer, voice or writing. I should only pray to God. This should be more about asking God what I should do than telling God what God should do.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

...I would not pray to the dead...I should only pray to God. This should be more about asking God what I should do than telling God what God should do.

I agree, but I am a Christian, not an agnostic. I used to talk to my dog - not prayed - more as a variation of talking to myself. The dog seemed to like the attention, but I was never in any doubt about such a practice being a viable alternative to actual prayer.

 

[dqhall]

The dog might like to listen to the sound of a voice, just as humans liked to listen to the song of a mockingbird or other whistling bird.

 

[stephen583]

Several (Christians ?) have stated in this forum communication with the dead is purely demonic, and at the very least it is either delusional, or involves some kind of brain disorder (dementia). How does a Christian reconcile these opinions with resurrection ? Elijah raised the dead, (I Kings 17:17). Jesus resurrected several people from the dead, (Luke 7:13, Matthew 9:25, John 11:43). Peter and Paul also resurrected the dead on at least one occasion, (Acts 9:36 and 20:9), and according to the Gospel, Christians in general have the power to resurrect the dead, (Matthew 10:7-8).

The Gospel also says after the resurrection of Jesus, "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and went into the holy city and appeared to many and testified that Christ had risen, (Mathew 27:52-53).

Are you absolutely sure there's no way the living can communicate with the DEAD ? What about resurrection ? Are you suggesting resurrection is demonic, or doesn't actually exist ? I hope not.

 

[dqhall]

My mother thought a living priest was in my parents house. The priest was not there. She was having memory recall problems as a result of her mental illness. Perhaps she was having reflections of an earlier time when the priest visited and ate supper with them. I did not report her talking to the dead. She thought she could use a prayer 'God line' to pray to people. She once got a message in her mind that a relative had been kidnapped. It was false information. She reported it to the police. She was taken to a mental health unit, then released as she was harmless. She has gotten worse and cannot complete a paragraph without forgetting what she was going to say. It is similar to what other Alzheimer's and dementia patients older than 75 went through.

I know she was a sober woman, a writer-editor employed professionally, the mother of three, not one to crash a car. She volunteered for meals on wheels and activities in her parish. As she deteriorated, there were a few dents. She reported people in her church were plotting against her. One day dad had to take her car keys from her so she would not hurt herself or others. She was very sad about that and was almost in tears. It is very sad for me to have seen what has happened to her. She became wheel chair bound and sometimes talked jibberish, other times competing sentences logically. The brain damage showed up on brain scans. Most of the time she is silent. She is living with her husband and has in home patient care.

I myself think angels exist, but I usually pray to God as angels are created, but not omnipotent.

Some Catholics prayed to saints. I am not sure what they got out of such activities. I was skeptical about Catholics praying the rosary as it seemed to be too repetitive. Good research requires looking for new sources.

Some psychics/mediums/palm readers charged people money and promised to put customers in touch with their departed loved ones. I would not waste a dime on it.

I think people were raised from the dead occasionally. There were reports in the news about it sometimes. I do not seek to contact dead people to find out directions to hidden gold treasure or anything like that. In my experience such would be a waste of time.

 

[dqhall]

I do not know how to delete this thread

 

[stephen583]

Some have posted their belief, the dead are "asleep and know nothing", (Ecclesiastes 9:5). On the other hand, we have the account of many bodies of the saints rising from the grave, going into Jerusalem after Jesus had risen, and testifying to the same, (Matthew 27:52-53). How did these saints know Jesus had risen from the dead, if they're supposed to be "asleep" and unconscious ?! Since there are no actual contradictions in the Word of God, only "seeming" contradictions, there has to be a Scriptural explanation, doesn't there ?

There are only two explanations I can think of. The way it's used sometimes in the Bible, the word "sleep" doesn't indicate unconsciousness. It is used throughout the teachings of the Apostles to indicate spiritual "unawareness", while those it refers to are fully "awake" and "conscious". It can also be used to describe those who are spiritually "inactive", precisely for the reason they are no longer of this earth, or have passed on. Unfortunately, this circular argument does nothing to address the statement in Ecclesiastes 9:5.

However, a solution may have occurred to me the other day while considering this seeming contradiction. What if these "deceased" saints who appear in Matthew 27:52 were resurrected AFTER the final Judgment, and then were sent back to the time of Jesus, and then rose from the grave in their new bodies. Isn't God supposed to be "omnipresent", Alpha and Omega, existing in all times simultaneously ? Did these saints not only cross over the "veil" between life and death, heaven and earth... but "time" itself ?!

It's the only explanation I can think of where Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Matthew 27:52 are not in contradiction with each other. Just some food for thought.

 

[dqhall]

Remember after Jesus was resurrected he appeared to his disciples and Thomas doubted he had visited them. He later appeared to Thomas and asked Thomas to feel the healed wound from his crucifixion. Then Thomas believed. Those who were brought back to life during this period of Jesus' ministry gained extra life as mortals.

Before this Lazarus had been resurrected after being in the grave long enough to be rotting. He got an extension of his earthly life. At one time the chief priests were plotting not only to kill Jesus, but Lazarus as well, for the people were leaving the chief priests and going over to Jesus after hearing what God did for Lazarus.

Beyond this mortal life, there might be another existence. Jesus taught God will separate the good from the bad and the good will live again.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

1. Scripture forbids interaction with the dead. Prayer proper is to be only addressed to God.

2. Ecclesiastes 9:6 What they loved and hated, as well as what they desired, has already perished. They no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.

The rich man in Luke 16 was going by the memory of his family. Angels do visit Heaven daily, thus it is possible that an guardian angel can make a side trip to speak to your loved one about a prayer he heard you say.

3. Correct, those who believe in soul sleep have developed that doctrine for boundary setting, that is making themselves theologically different than the Catholic Church.

4. The witch was expecting her filimiar spirit, but Samuel was allowed in this special case to show up to tell Saul off.

The Transfiguration with Jesus and others was a special case. Some claim that they were resurrected for that purpose.

God created your loved one, He is omnipresent and as such can hear your prayers. your loved one is a limited creature and can not hear your prayer.

Sometimes I feel that praying to a deceased loved one is more sensible than praying to God, because I know my loved one existed in the past and I do not know if God ever existed at all.

Concerning denominations, there are basic positions: 1) Loved one's in heaven, but not hell can hear your prayers and pray along with you. 2) Loved one's in heaven can not hear your prayers. 3) Love ones pray for you based on their memories of you or by indirect communication via angels observing you. Non-Christian Religions may have views that I am not aware of.

 

[stephen583]

I'm a non-denominational Christian. Most of the non-denominationalists I've met agree the departed saints are not dead, nor asleep. Revelation 6:9-10 is often cited with regard to this belief. It says, "the souls of those who were slain for the word of God, and the testimony which they held are gathered under the alter of God in heaven". Most believe these prayers are of a "general" nature, and do not reflect any specific knowledge of events transpiring here on earth.

Clearly, this is not a Post Apocalyptic view of heaven, because these saints do not as yet have their resurrected bodies and are described instead in the verse as being "souls" (spirits). Despite their cries for vengeance against those who dwell on earth and who spilled their blood, they are told they must rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled, (Revelation 6:11).

Some non-denom's believe the "souls" in heaven are aware of what is happening here on earth. Others don't. It seems to run about 50-50. All agree these departed "souls" (saints) are "inactive" (at rest), as is described in Revelation 6:11, having no power to intervene here on earth, (except possibly through prayer and supplications made directly to God).

Personally, I fall into the "awake", but "inactive" (at rest) category. In times of trouble, I've never prayed to my deceased mother to "intercede" with God on my behalf, so I guess that would put me in the "unaware" category as well. However, knowing my mother as I do, I'm sure she has petitioned God on many occasions to watch over me, (regardless of what she may not be aware of here on earth).

Hope this is enlightening as far as what many non-denom's believe. This is of course not 100% inclusive of all non-denominational Christians, because we take our doctrine "personally" from our own individual "understanding" of what the Scripture means.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I'm a non-denominational Christian. Most of the non-denominationalists I've met agree the departed saints are not dead, nor asleep. Revelation 6:9-10 is often cited with regard to this belief. It says, "the souls of those who were slain for the word of God, and the testimony which they held are gathered under the alter of God in heaven". Most believe these prayers are of a "general" nature, and do not reflect any specific knowledge of events transpiring here on earth.

Clearly, this is not a Post Apocalyptic view of heaven, because these saints do not as yet have their resurrected bodies and are described instead in the verse as being "souls" (spirits). Despite their cries for vengeance against those who dwell on earth and who spilled their blood, they are told they must rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled, (Revelation 6:11).

Some non-denom's believe the "souls" in heaven are aware of what is happening here on earth. Others don't. It seems to run about 50-50. All agree these departed "souls" (saints) are "inactive" (at rest), as is described in Revelation 6:11, having no power to intervene here on earth, (except possibly through prayer and supplications made directly to God).



Personally, I fall into the "awake", but "inactive" (at rest) category. In times of trouble, I've never prayed to my deceased mother to "intercede" with God on my behalf, so I guess that would put me in the "unaware" category as well. However, knowing my mother as I do, I'm sure she has petitioned God on many occasions to watch over me, (regardless of what she may not be aware of here on earth).

Hope this is enlightening as far as what many non-denom's believe. This is of course not 100% inclusive of all non-denominational Christians, because we take our doctrine "personally" from our own individual "understanding" of what the Scripture means.

Rev 6,
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under vthe altar wthe souls of those who had been slain xfor the word of God and for ythe witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, zholy and true, ahow long bbefore you will judge and cavenge our blood on dthose who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given ea white robe and ftold to rest a little longer, guntil the number of their fellow servants and their brothers3 hshould be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

It makes more sense that those under the altar are praying via memory of what happened to them on earth. There is nothing in this text that indicates that anyone on earth prayed to or communicated with anyone in heaven.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There is a difference between OT and NT saints as to the location of Paradise. In the OT and up to the Resurrection, the dead were in the grave as describe by Luke 16. At the Resurrection, Jesus lead the captives free.

Eph 4.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


Matthew 27:51-53King James Version (KJV)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[stephen583]

It makes more sense that those under the altar are praying via memory of what happened to them on earth. There is nothing in this text that indicates that anyone on earth prayed to or communicated with anyone in heaven.

Nor is there anything in this text to indicate they didn't communicate with anyone on earth, or they arn't aware of what is happening here on earth. The text doesn't say anything about the extent of their knowledge one way or the other.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Nor is there anything in this text to indicate they didn't communicate with anyone on earth, or they arn't aware of what is happening here on earth. The text doesn't say anything about the extent of their knowledge one way or the other.

"They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, zholy and true, ahow long bbefore you will judge and cavenge our blood on dthose who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given ea white robe "

The fact that they are getting their robes says they are new arrivals. Using commonsense it is likely they simply remember how they just died on earth, thus no communications of any kind.