Talking to deceased loved ones

[Geralt]

there was no issue with those statements in scripture. the deficiency was on how you inserted your own idea beyond what the text meant.

let me show it to you then.

: on Rev 5:8, here's the text (ESV)

Rev 5:7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." ​

here's your intepretation about v8 in your post #73:

The first appears in Revelation 5:8, where the saints in heaven are described as having harps and golden vials of odours "WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS". A direct contradiction to your statement, saying the departed in heaven do not pray for the living.​

now the text does NOT say the a) the saints are in heaven, b) and that they have harps and golden vials
they do say the incense are the prayers of the saints. i underlined above the thought or idea that you inserted which was never part of the text. and thus made you conclude the thought that 'the departed are praying for the living.' the text only says 4 beast and 24 elders. you went beyond the text.

now the same is true in Luke 15:10, when it just mentions 'there is joy in heaven', and you inserted your idea that (post #73):

Who is supposed to be expressing this joy before the angels of God, if it isn't the saints who are already in heaven ?​

it is not the bible that needs ripping, but the conscience seared to mystical interpretations that dwell in speculation.

These patently false assertions you make are totally ridiculous. Anyone who reads these passages can easily see you are the one distorting Scripture, not me. Revelation 5:8 refers specifically in plain English to the "Prayers of the Saints". The only way you can make those words disappear, is to rip that page out of the Bible. As for Luke 15:10.. See Revelation 5:8 for the context.. Unless you intend to rip Luke 15:10 out of the Bible as well.

 

[stephen583]

now the text does NOT say the a) the saints are in heaven, b) and that they have harps and golden vials
they do say the incense are the prayers of the saints. i underlined above the thought or idea that you inserted which was never part of the text. and thus made you conclude the thought that 'the departed are praying for the living.' the text only says 4 beast and 24 elders. you went beyond the text.

Absolutely. Revelation 5:8 specifically mentions the "PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS", not just the 4 beasts and 24 elders, as you so erroneously indicate in your response. ARE YOU BLIND ?! Or just pretending to be bind ???

I did go beyond the text and I explained exactly why. Scripture interprets Scripture. The passages of Revelation 6:10, 21:4 and Luke 15:10 all prove unequivocally, there are departed saints IN HEAVEN right now, PRAYING FOR SINNERS, WEEPING AND CRYING OUT FOR VENGENCE AGAINST THOSE WHO ARE ON EARTH, AND REJOICING AT THE REPENTANCE OF SINNERS. The only way to get to your interpretation, is to tear those pages out of the Bible. Which I wouldn't recommend.

So Please STOP trying to "rephrase" and "mischaracterize" what I SAID while pretending you are deaf and blind. You are making a fool out of yourself.

 

[keltoi]

@stephen583 Take a look at Revelation 5:8 with clear eyes here it is again for you
"And when he had taken the scroll,
the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb,
having each a harp and bowls golden,
being full of incense,
which are the prayers of the saints."
This doesn't say the 24 elders are the people praying it merely says the incense, and this is representative, are the prayers of the saints. The saints are all Christians not just 24 old guys that in Revelation are in Heaven. We don't know if those old guys are in Heaven right now or if they will go to Heaven when we do.

To put it simply the Bible doesn't say what you are suggesting it says.

 

[stephen583]

To put it simply the Bible doesn't say what you are suggesting it says.

That's nonsense.

 

[keltoi]

That's nonsense.

What is nonsense is taking 1 verse from the Bible and putting things in it that are not in it.

 

[cloudyday2]

What about the anecdotal evidence from @stephen583 and so many others that the living seem to receive aid with the signature of their loved ones on that aid? (See post #59 in this thread where @stephen583 described this kind of evidence.)

Of course, these anecdotes can be dismissed by skeptics as confirmation bias, hallucinations caused by grief or stress, etc. However, at least these anecdotes are consistent with the hypothesis that deceased loved ones aid the living - even if the anecdotes alone might not persuade a skeptical person.

I think critical thinking and skepticism are admirable traits, but these traits should be applied uniformly to all beliefs. If a person is going to be skeptical about anecdotes of aid from deceased loved ones, then that person should also be skeptical of the Bible, Holy Tradition, etc. Most Christians believe in God, because they have some personal anecdotal evidence.

 

[cloudyday2]

@stephen583 , this is a bit off-topic, but you are from New Orleans and have some experience with the occult, so I was curious about your opinion on this question. A few years ago, I went to meet an old friend for a few days in New Orleans. On the surface, the trip was uneventful. We talked, laughed, strolled around Bourbon Street, had some drinks, etc. However, I felt like something was wrong from the moment I arrived. For example, somebody on the airport bus kept staring and making faces at me, and I honestly was concerned that he might attack me. I was shaking in nervousness when I got off the bus at my hotel. The whole weekend was like that. Finally, when I arrived home and the airplane began to unload passengers, one more weird thing happened. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and I became mildly psychotic. Nobody ever diagnosed my psychosis at the time, so I got no treatment. My mother thought it was a spiritual attack. I had been agnostic, and I became sort of a mystical Orthodox Christian for a year or so in response to the psychosis (religiosity). For several years, I was convinced that something had happened to me to cause me to become psychotic. That is actually why I first started using forums - I wanted to find an answer to what happened to me. Lately, I have begun to think that it was simply the stress of traveling. ... So what do you think about occult? Does it actually do anything? Can it make people psychotic? I suppose this is a hard question to answer in general though. I just wanted to ask, because my little psychological adventure started in your home town. Back in college, I watched a movie called "Angel Heart" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Heart ). Nothing happened to me, but it felt like something was wrong. IDK I suppose I was trying to understand something that was just neurons misfiring in my head.

 

[Blade]

Sometimes I find myself talking to deceased loves ones. It is a one-way conversation. A few times I might ask for help if that is possible. I don't know if deceased loved ones exist or if they might be too busy with problems of their own or there might be a process. Maybe the deceased person is limited to interceding with God on behalf of the living person. It is all open to speculation.

Anyway, here are my questions:

(1) How is my interaction with deceased loved ones different from prayer?

(2) Catholics and Orthodox and others pray to saints. They consider the deceased people to be awake in heaven, so praying to a deceased person is merely asking that deceased person to pray on your behalf.

(3) There are the Christians that believe in soul sleep. I assume they do not talk to their deceased loved ones.

(4) The OT has the story of Saul using a medium to ask Samuel for advice. Apparently Saul had outlawed mediums.

Sometimes I feel that praying to a deceased loved one is more sensible than praying to God, because I know my loved one existed in the past and I do not know if God ever existed at all.

Any thoughts? I hope to get perspectives from a variety of denominations.

You pulled allot of different things into this. What do YOU believe? I believe the word of God..like KJV...and other versions.. are good. Catholics do and then add many things that should never be done. In the OT Christ never came or died. So those that died were in a different place..holding tank? Hehe search on it. And Samuel came but NOT wanted to. When a believer dies they go right to be with the Father. And think.. to pray to the dead.. that dead would have to have some AWESOME Powers to even answer that pray.. yet that prayer goes to GOD..never a person. I had a dream a few years ago.. my mom had passed and went home. In this dream she was standing there. I new in the dream she was dead. So I said.. if you really are my mother..then say.. it is by the BLOOD OF JESUS we are washed. The thing mumbled something and vanished.

Truth? You DONT play with this. This can open a door to things you can not handle. Have no power over unless you walk with Christ..even then you do not play with them. Even the mighty angle when he fought satan over Moses body.. only could say.. the lord rebuke you. See they fell and have no authority..this is written..yet ALL that God gave them they still have. They have no red body or evil looking this or that. MAN and them say that. As long as man sees them evil looking red and with a pitch fork.. then when that beautiful looking angle shows up as a angel or something else.. man knows...it must be of GOD..its looks sounds beautiful. Satan was the most beautiful..full of wisdom.. a he is still the same. Just fallen with no power what so ever over us that know Christ. This have been around before the world was...they do not forget like man.. they know see all around them..remember it all every person how they were and like.. so to speak like act like talk like someone that passed.. lol is easy.. to look like sound like a angel of GOD.. as it is written they can.. is easy.

TEST the spirits.. Jesus came in the flesh.. we are bought and paid for .. the BLOOD OF JESUS.. none of them will every say or point to. So one should NEVER talk to the dead.. If they new Christ.. man they are so happen...you will see them again.. they are waiting..

 

[stephen583]

So what do you think about occult? Does it actually do anything? Can it make people psychotic? I suppose this is a hard question to answer in general though. I just wanted to ask, because my little psychological adventure started in your home town.

As I understand it from having discussed witchcraft and voodoo from practitioners of the occult, their position is (universally), your belief (or even awareness) of their activity is not necessary for their spells to work. I know people (particularly Christians), are going to freak out about this statement. It is not my opinion, it's simply what I've heard from practitioners of the occult. According to them, YES, you can be affected without knowing the cause.

That having been said, I have also experienced some very disturbing "supernatural" activity. I tried once to intervene on behalf of a family that was experiencing demonic activity in their house. It got pretty intense. A disembodied voice, things flying around in the room, the pet collie dog found with its head twisted around backwards... It was frightening and horrible, and the whole experience haunts me to this very day. What caused the activity ? I found a ouji board in a box along with black and red candles in a closet. The wife admitted she had been dabbling with summoning spirits. The family had to permanently vacate the house.

Another aspect of your story I relate to, is your admission that having experienced a demonic attack, only served to strengthen your belief in God. I absolutely agree. There is a Devil and demons are real... so it naturally follows God is real too.

 

[stephen583]

I have also experienced some very disturbing "supernatural" activity. I tried once to intervene on behalf of a family that was experiencing demonic activity in their house.

I wish I could go into more detail about what happened the two nights I was in the house on Brookter Street. However, CF has strict rules against discussing specific exorcism rites and rituals. I don't understand the rule, as exorcism was one of the miracles performed by Jesus. There are nine separate accounts in the Synoptic Gospels about Jesus casting out demons. In none of these Scriptural accounts, is any ritual performed that would be considered harmful or injurious to the recipients of the miracles.

At the same time, I do understand some exorcism rituals as performed by certain sects of Christianity go way beyond anything described in the Gospel, and would naturally be considered potentially injurious. So I do understand the wish of CF not to have specific details discussed, and I will respect their wishes, as the web-site belongs to them and not to me.

I will state the following generally. There was no demonic possession of any person in this instance. It was the demonic possession of a place, not a person. My actions were limited only to reading Bible Scripture and offering the family spiritual support, while they gathered their belongings and vacated the house. Still, even that got pretty intense.

I just don't want to leave anyone with the impression I perform 13th Century type exorcisms, like the kind of violent stuff portrayed in some Hollywood horror movies.

 

[cloudyday2]

You pulled allot of different things into this. What do YOU believe?

I'm not sure what I believe.

 

[cloudyday2]

I wish I could go into more detail about what happened the two nights I was in the house on Brookter Street. However, CF has strict rules against discussing specific exorcism rites and rituals. I don't understand the rule, as exorcism was one of the miracles performed by Jesus. There are nine separate accounts in the Synoptic Gospels about Jesus casting out demons. In none of these Scriptural accounts, is any ritual performed that would be considered harmful or injurious to the recipients of the miracles.

At the same time, I do understand some exorcism rituals as performed by certain sects of Christianity go way beyond anything described in the Gospel, and would naturally be considered potentially injurious. So I do understand the wish of CF not to have specific details discussed, and I will respect their wishes, as the web-site belongs to them and not to me.

I will state the following generally. There was no demonic possession of any person in this instance. It was the demonic possession of a place, not a person. My actions were limited only to reading Bible Scripture and offering the family spiritual support, while they gathered their belongings and vacated the house. Still, even that got pretty intense.

I just don't want to leave anyone with the impression I perform 13th Century type exorcisms, like the kind of violent stuff portrayed in some Hollywood horror movies.

That is weird. I don't know what to believe about occult, demons, etc. My priest performed an exorcism on me, but it didn't seem to help. Later I saw a therapist who told me about psychosis. It's very confusing.

 

[cloudyday2]

@stephen583 , why do you suppose the efforts to find scientific evidence for witchcraft, psi, etc. have been unsuccessful? Duke University had a parapsychology group that tried and failed. The CIA had their remove viewing investigations that also failed (although the CIA uses misinformation routinely). I'm not saying this to be dismissive of the possibility of paranormal, but it seems to me that if these things exist, then they must have some fundamental properties that make objective evidence hard to find. Critical thinking instructs that I should classify my experiences as psychosis, coincidences, etc., because these are things that we already know to exist, and they can provide an adequate explanation. That doesn't totally satisfy me though.

 

[cloudyday2]

@stephen583 , how many people were present when you had your paranormal experiences while helping those people vacate their haunted house? Did you talk to these people later about the specific experiences to confirm that they still remembered? For one of my experiences, two other people were present (one was my mother). When I asked my mother months later if she remembered this experience, she said "no". It's possible that the experience did not make the same impression on her, but it is also possible that I hallucinated her presence as a witness. That really opened my eyes to the power of hallucinations.

One of my hypotheses is that some of the experience of demons, psi, etc. might be hallucinatory after the person's psyche is destabilized by an initial experience that is not hallucinatory (i.e. externally generated - either by natural means or supernatural means)

(Also, I don't mean to keep asking you questions if you might be getting tired of discussing these things. The topic is important and interesting to me, but I realize it might not be as interesting to other people.)

 

[stephen583]

how many people were present when you had your paranormal experiences while helping those people vacate their haunted house?

I initially answered the complaint in my official capacity as a St, Tammany Parish sheriff deputy. The homeowner called the S.O. to investigate, because he was awakened several times in the middle of the night to find the front door of his house standing wide open after he had locked it and gone to bed. His two children reported awakening in the middle of the night and hearing a scary voice in the house.

On the second night, I was called to the house to investigate the killing of the family dog, (in the closed garage/washroom area, off the kitchen). Every bone in the dog's body had been broken. I had bagged up the dog and was carrying it through the kitchen, when dishes started flying off the kitchen counter and couch cushions and wall pictures went flying about in the living room. Everyone was absolutely terrified.

I hurried (really fast) to the front door, and heard a very loud and malevolent disembodied voice clearly say my first name.. S-T-E-P-H-E-N. The scary thing was, I hadn't told anyone my first name, and only my last name appeared on my uniform name tag. I told the man, get your family out of here.. you've got thirty minutes and I'm leaving. While they loaded the family car, I read Scripture aloud from a Bible I had brought along with me.

During the process the wife produced the Ouiji board and candles. After everyone got out of the house, I placed the Bible and the crucifix at the door and scribbled a note that said, "Enter here only with God". The Ouiji board and candles were dropped off for disposal with a priest at a local Catholic church, who was informed about the incident and the evil that had been manifested by these occult objects. I knew better than to dispose of the objects myself.

Was this a case of mass hallucination ??? I don't believe so. I couldn't resist driving by the house for several years afterwards, and it always appeared dark and unoccupied (at least by any human residents).

 

[stephen583]

I recently viewed a dvd movie from the library entitled "The Cokeville Miracle". It was the story of an incident that took place in Arizona in the late 1980's. A terrorist took a room full of elementary students and teachers hostage at a local school and set off a bomb in a classroom. Just before the bomb was detonated, the children prayed, and according to the statements of the children, angels and departed relatives appeared and descended, surrounding the bomb, and told them it was going to explode, but none of them were going to die.

When the bomb detonated, only the perpetrator and his accomplice were killed. The children claimed the angels and their departed relatives took them by the hand and led them through the smoke to safety. None of the children suffered any injury, not even smoke inhalation.

State bomb experts who examined the scene were mystified and couldn't explain how the children escaped injury. The walls of the class room were pock-marked with bomb shrapnel. The explosion was somehow directed straight up through the ceiling of the room, instead of exploding outward as it was designed to do.

I highly recommend skeptics who do not believe in angels or heavenly saints view this movie and consider the event that took place at Cokeville Elementary.

 

[Ironhold]

I recently viewed a dvd movie from the library entitled "The Cokeville Miracle". It was the story of an incident that took place in Arizona in the late 1980's. A terrorist took a room full of elementary students and teachers hostage at a local school and set off a bomb in a classroom. Just before the bomb was detonated, the children prayed, and according to the statements of the children, angels and departed relatives appeared and descended, surrounding the bomb, and told them it was going to explode, but none of them were going to die.

When the bomb detonated, only the perpetrator and his accomplice were killed. The children claimed the angels and their departed relatives took them by the hand and led them through the smoke to safety. None of the children suffered any injury, not even smoke inhalation.

State bomb experts who examined the scene were mystified and couldn't explain how the children escaped injury. The walls of the class room were pock-marked with bomb shrapnel. The explosion was somehow directed straight up through the ceiling of the room, instead of exploding outward as it was designed to do.

I highly recommend skeptics who do not believe in angels or heavenly saints view this movie and consider the event that took place at Cokeville Elementary.

FYI - Cokeville is in Wyoming, not Arizona.

 

[cloudyday2]

I recently viewed a dvd movie from the library entitled "The Cokeville Miracle". It was the story of an incident that took place in Arizona in the late 1980's. A terrorist took a room full of elementary students and teachers hostage at a local school and set off a bomb in a classroom. Just before the bomb was detonated, the children prayed, and according to the statements of the children, angels and departed relatives appeared and descended, surrounding the bomb, and told them it was going to explode, but none of them were going to die.

When the bomb detonated, only the perpetrator and his accomplice were killed. The children claimed the angels and their departed relatives took them by the hand and led them through the smoke to safety. None of the children suffered any injury, not even smoke inhalation.

State bomb experts who examined the scene were mystified and couldn't explain how the children escaped injury. The walls of the class room were pock-marked with bomb shrapnel. The explosion was somehow directed straight up through the ceiling of the room, instead of exploding outward as it was designed to do.

I highly recommend skeptics who do not believe in angels or heavenly saints view this movie and consider the event that took place at Cokeville Elementary.

Thanks, I guess there is a book written about the incident too. I am particularly curious about the children who claimed to have interacted with people who resembled their deceased relatives. Here is the wikipedia article:

76 of the hostages suffered injuries, mostly flesh burns and other injuries from the exploding bomb. Several children reported seeing angels in the classroom that day, including many children who claimed to have seen a "beautiful lady" or person all in white who told them to go near the window. Other children reported seeing an angel over each child's head. All of the children who saw angels were shown several photos to identify the beings. Every child responded to the photos of an ancestor saying, "That's her/him!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cokeville_Elementary_School_hostage_crisis

 

[cloudyday2]

I initially answered the complaint in my official capacity as a St, Tammany Parish sheriff deputy. The homeowner called the S.O. to investigate, because he was awakened several times in the middle of the night to find the front door of his house standing wide open after he had locked it and gone to bed. His two children reported awakening in the middle of the night and hearing a scary voice in the house.

On the second night, I was called to the house to investigate the killing of the family dog, (in the closed garage/washroom area, off the kitchen). Every bone in the dog's body had been broken. I had bagged up the dog and was carrying it through the kitchen, when dishes started flying off the kitchen counter and couch cushions and wall pictures went flying about in the living room. Everyone was absolutely terrified.

I hurried (really fast) to the front door, and heard a very loud and malevolent disembodied voice clearly say my first name.. S-T-E-P-H-E-N. The scary thing was, I hadn't told anyone my first name, and only my last name appeared on my uniform name tag. I told the man, get your family out of here.. you've got thirty minutes and I'm leaving. While they loaded the family car, I read Scripture aloud from a Bible I had brought along with me.

During the process the wife produced the Ouiji board and candles. After everyone got out of the house, I placed the Bible and the crucifix at the door and scribbled a note that said, "Enter here only with God". The Ouiji board and candles were dropped off for disposal with a priest at a local Catholic church, who was informed about the incident and the evil that had been manifested by these occult objects. I knew better than to dispose of the objects myself.

Was this a case of mass hallucination ??? I don't believe so. I couldn't resist driving by the house for several years afterwards, and it always appeared dark and unoccupied (at least by any human residents).

Thanks, @stephen583 , that is interesting, and I know from personal experience that talking about these things is exposing yourself to the giggle factor.

Most of my experiences were so weird that they are difficult to explain. Reading your post caused me to revisit those memories, and I found myself getting a little unsettled, because I still don't have very satisfying answers. The psychosis explanation only partially works, but neither does any other explanation that I have tried. Traditional Christianity only partially works. In fact, that is part of why I walked away from Christianity. I was tired of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. But atheism doesn't quite work either unless I accept that I was hallucinating at times when there was no reason to suspect that. Of course the songs says "life is but a dream". Maybe everything is a hallucination. LOL

 

[stephen583]

Most of my experiences were so weird that they are difficult to explain. Reading your post caused me to revisit those memories, and I found myself getting a little unsettled, because I still don't have very satisfying answers. The psychosis explanation only partially works,

I was extremely disturbed by this incident as well. It bothered me a lot. I even visited a psychiatrist at Slidell Memorial Hospital and recounted the incident to him. After a moment of thought, he said, "The odds of five people exhibiting schizophrenic behavior and hallucinating seeing and hearing the same thing simultaneously is virtually impossible". He continued, "If you remain disturbed by this event, I recommend you best seek the council of a clergyman". "It doesn't sound to me like I can help you". That was a sobering moment, up till then I thought it possible I might just be crazy.