Talking to deceased loved ones

[stephen583]

I have also heard similar stories from family members. It is easy to see why the Chinese and other cultures would have traditions of venerating deceased loved ones. If a person felt that they had been miraculously aided by a deceased loved one, then it would be natural to show gratitude later by lighting candles and so forth. Gradually this would become tradition for everybody regardless of their experiences.

The thing I find distasteful, is when Christians automatically label any "spiritual" contact whatsoever as demonic, or lending itself to necromancy. From the standpoint of Christian theology, that's totally ridiculous. As I proved in post #54 the Old and New Testament are loaded with resurrection stories, even some in which the dead once having been resurrected, actually witness to the living.

 

[keltoi]

The thing I find distasteful, is when Christians automatically label any "spiritual" contact whatsoever as demonic, or lending itself to necromancy. From the standpoint of Christian theology, that's totally ridiculous. As I proved in post #54 the Old and New Testament are loaded with resurrection stories, even some in which the dead once having been resurrected, actually witness to the living.

I think your comparing apples and oranges in this and in post #54. The OP was talking about talking to someone who is actually dead. This is frowned upon and there have been Biblical verse that indicate that. In post #54 you are talking about people who have been raised back to life and are on Earth. These are 2 different things. Jesus gave an example of prayer and I don't remember seeing "Our deceased relative who art in heaven" as the first sentence. Instead Jesus said "Our father who art in Heaven".

 

[stephen583]

I think your comparing apples and oranges in this and in post #54. The OP was talking about talking to someone who is actually dead.

Well yes. Someone does actually have to be DEAD before they can be RESURRECTED. So it's more like comparing oranges to oranges. The dead who were raised from the grave and went into Jerusalem to witness to others about the resurrection of Christ were DEAD people, it says so in Matthew 27:52. They were temporarily resurrected.

All I stated in my post, is that God has in the past resurrected the dead to communicate with the living. Angels are generally God's messengers, but apparently according to Scripture, he uses the dead to communicate with the living as well, temporarily resurrecting them. So unless you're suggesting we tear Matthew 27:52 out of the Bible, I don't see how you're going to argue otherwise.

As for praying to deceased persons for intervention on the part of God, I don't believe you read that anywhere in anything I posted, so I would appreciate it if you refrain from mischaracterizing what I said. It goes without saying, according to Christian theology, someone should pray directly to God for divine intervention, not their dead relative, (however saintly they may have been while they were alive). By the way, I am a non-denominational Christian and I'm not a Catholic and I have never been one.

Nor have I ever prayed to my deceased mother to intercede on my behalf with God. I will admit to having had one-way conversations with her from time to time, which I believe is all I've heard the OP refer to as well. I think that is pretty much natural human behavior, which you are trying inappropriately to turn into some kind of irreverent worship of the departed.

So IMO it seems to me like, you are the one who is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[stephen583]

Of course I would NEVER recommend any Christian be involved with "summoning" spirits. Things like mirror gazing, ouiji boards, tarot cards, séances and voodoo are forms of "necromancy" and are patently EVIL. They are also IMO gateways which invite actual "demonic" possession. I have actually seen first hand evidence of this outcome myself, with people who foolishly dabbled in the occult.

Having lived in New Orleans almost my entire life, I am very well acquainted with "Santareanism" (Louisiana Voodoo), which is a bizarre mixture of Caribbean/African Voodoo and Catholicism. Followers of Santareanism maintain they are very devout Christians, who are merely practicing a form of "Voodoo-Lite". Just like Wiccans, Santareanists claim they only perform "White-Magic" and "good sorcery" ! There's an "oxymoron" for you, like "military-intelligence" or "political freedom". Lol.

That having been said, I don't see how anyone can associate these prohibited and dangerous sorcerous activities with innocent behavior like lighting candles for deceased relatives commemorating their passing, placing flowers on a grave, or talking to the departed while you are at the cemetery. These are natural human behaviors and are necessary to the grieving process.

At the same time, I recognize there are "fundamentalists" (zealots) who can't distinguish any difference between the two things, but I think they are just being silly and overly zealous. I believe I feel safer leaving that judgment with God, and not with the zealots. We don't want to revisit the Inquisition, or the Salem witch hunts, do we ?! At least some of us don't.

 

[cloudyday2]

Another related issue is communion. Many churches believe that communion is a ceremony uniting everybody in the Church (body of Christ) both living and dead. My grandfather passed away before my brother's marriage, so it was very important to my brother that the marriage include communion so that my grandfather would be present.

Here is something I found from a Catholic website.

1689 The Eucharistic Sacrifice. When the celebration takes place in church the Eucharist is the heart of the Paschal reality of Christian death.190 In the Eucharist, the Church expresses her efficacious communion with the departed: offering to the Father in the Holy Spirit the sacrifice of the death and resurrection of Christ, she asks to purify his child of his sins and their consequences, and to admit him to the Paschal fullness of the table of the Kingdom.191 It is by the Eucharist thus celebrated that the community of the faithful, especially the family of the deceased, learn to live in communion with the one who "has fallen asleep in the Lord," by communicating in the Body of Christ of which he is a living member and, then, by praying for him and with him.

1690 A farewell to the deceased is his final "commendation to God" by the Church. It is "the last farewell by which the Christian community greets one of its members before his body is brought to its tomb."192 The Byzantine tradition expresses this by the kiss of farewell to the deceased:
By this final greeting "we sing for his departure from this life and separation from us, but also because there is a communion and a reunion. For even dead, we are not at all separated from one another, because we all run the same course and we will find one another again in the same place. We shall never be separated, for we live for Christ, and now we are united with Christ as we go toward him . . . we shall all be together in Christ."193

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c4a2.htm

 

[stephen583]

There is a huge Catholic population in New Orleans. Nobody who has lived there their entire life (regardless of their religious affiliation), hasn't at one time or another attended services at a Catholic Church, (well anyway, it's rather unlikely). I taped several Catholic weddings as a free-lance video photographer. I found it very odd, the wedding vows were conducted by the priest, center stage before the pulpit in the traditional manner, but then the couple and the priest move over to a shrine located off to the side (and dedicated to the Virgin Mary), where the marriage was again consecrated.

I don't know if this is a tradition distinctive to New Orleans Catholics, or whether it's practiced universally by the RCC everywhere. I have to admit, the wedding ceremony being conducted in this "dual" fashion did make me feel a bit "uncomfortable".

As far as doctrine goes, I don't know whether the RCC regards the Virgin Mary as a co-equal with God, or not, (I'm no expert on Catholic theology). I do know from living in New Orleans, Catholics traditionally regard the Virgin Mary as an "intercessor" with God, as well as a number of saints they pray to expressly for that purpose.

Does praying to the Virgin Mary and a whole bevy of dead saints seem wrong to me ?! Well I wouldn't do it myself, but then again.. I don't think it's a good idea to bring a live rattlesnake into a small church building with only a couple of exits either, or refusing a blood transfusion if I needed one.

There are plenty of Christian denominations that do certain things I personally wouldn't recommend. Does that mean everyone who doesn't agree with me isn't a Christian ?! I don't think I would presume to go that far.

However, the "co-equal" with God business (if that is indeed RCC doctrine), is very problematic to my way of thinking.

 

[cloudyday2]

There is a huge Catholic population in New Orleans. Nobody who has lived there their entire life (regardless of their religious affiliation), hasn't at one time or another attended services at a Catholic Church, (well anyway, it's rather unlikely). I taped several Catholic weddings as a free-lance video photographer. I found it very odd, the wedding vows were conducted by the priest, center stage before the pulpit in the traditional manner, but then the couple and the priest move over to a shrine located off to the side (and dedicated to the Virgin Mary), where the marriage was again consecrated.

I don't know if this is a tradition distinctive to New Orleans Catholics, or whether it's practiced universally by the RCC everywhere. I have to admit, the wedding ceremony being conducted in this "dual" fashion did make me feel a bit "uncomfortable".

As far as doctrine goes, I don't know whether the RCC regards the Virgin Mary as a co-equal with God, or not, (I'm no expert on Catholic theology). I do know from living in New Orleans, Catholics traditionally regard the Virgin Mary as an "intercessor" with God, as well as a number of saints they pray to expressly for that purpose.

Does praying to the Virgin Mary and a whole bevy of dead saints seem wrong to me ?! Well I wouldn't do it myself, but then again.. I don't think it's a good idea to bring a live rattlesnake into a small church building with only a couple of exits either, or refusing a blood transfusion if I needed one.

There are plenty of Christian denominations that do certain things I personally wouldn't recommend. Does that mean everyone who doesn't agree with me isn't a Christian ?! I don't think I would presume to go that far.

However, the "co-equal" with God business (if that is indeed RCC doctrine), is very problematic to my way of thinking.

I grew up as an Episcopalian, and some of my family later converted to Eastern Orthodox. I was Eastern Orthodox too for a couple of years. So I don't know that much about Catholic beliefs. The Orthodox call Mary the "mother of God" and sing songs to honor her, kiss icons of Mary, etc. I think the main theological difference between Catholics and Orthodox is the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary. Orthodox believe that Mary lived free of sin, but Catholics believe Mary also did not have the ancestral sin. I think some of the Catholics believe that Mary was taken to heaven without experiencing death while the Orthodox believe she died first. Some of the Catholics believe the same as the Orthodox (whatever that was). I never felt too comfortable with all of that, because I didn't grow up with it.

 

[stephen583]

I grew up as an Episcopalian, and some of my family later converted to Eastern Orthodox.

I know even less about Eastern Orthodox doctrine than I do about the RCC. Much smaller population in New Orleans than the RCC. From what I gather, Eastern Orthodox religion claims they do not worship, or pray to anyone except God, especially "images" of any kind. Apparently they draw a distinction between the veneration of an object and the worship of one.

As an example, all Christians venerate the symbol of the cross, but they do not pray to it, or worship it... it is merely a symbol of Christianity, not an object of worship. Although I'm certain there are parts of the world today where someone might actually suffer punishment or even death for desecrating the symbol of the cross.

Maybe this is a distinction without a difference. I don't know. As I said before, there are differences in opinion between Christians as to what is and isn't appropriate worship.

 

[cloudyday2]

I know even less about Eastern Orthodox doctrine than I do about the RCC. Much smaller population in New Orleans than the RCC. From what I gather, Eastern Orthodox religion claims they do not worship, or pray to anyone except God, especially "images" of any kind. Apparently they draw a distinction between the veneration of an object and the worship of one.

As an example, all Christians venerate the symbol of the cross, but they do not pray to it, or worship it... it is merely a symbol of Christianity, not an object of worship. Although I'm certain there are parts of the world today where someone might actually suffer punishment or even death for desecrating the symbol of the cross.

Maybe this is a distinction without a difference. I don't know. As I said before, there are differences in opinion between Christians as to what is and isn't appropriate worship.

That is another interesting topic. Is the object of the activity the only distinction between veneration and worship? If I kiss an icon of John the Baptist, then I am venerating him, but if I kiss an icon of Jesus, then I am worshiping Him?

 

[Geralt]

our feelings are not the best judge of defining right and wrong. traditions/practices did not start from nowhere, but somebody, sometime ago, somewhere 'felt' something ought to be right..eventually became a norm. to solidify the norm, most of the time they would grab the holy book and look for any implied messages that would support it to give the norm authority and permanence.

what we do know from scripture is that those with Christ and have passed-on in a better place, those who don't are awaiting judgment. i do believe in the afterlife, but I would not assume our reality, the laws of time, space or gravity, or the laws of physics still apply in their reality and that our deceased love ones are loitering somewhere peeping and eavesdropping on those they left behind. this is fantasy at best and a make-belief.

what i am pointing out is that those who still do converse with their departed actually have it in their thoughts/belief (even if they deny it) one way or another that their departed still has the capacity to listen to them, and can even perhaps act in their behalf.

only God can act in our behalf today in this life, this is the testament shown in scripture. all sort of mediums, necromancy are considered an abomination- rightly so for the main reason that faith is not directed to God but to them. the inevitably of death and our fear of it (for ourselves and for our loved ones) should always drive us helplessly towards God.

 

[stephen583]

i do believe in the afterlife, but I would not assume our reality, the laws of time, space or gravity, or the laws of physics still apply in their reality and that our deceased love ones are loitering somewhere peeping and eavesdropping on those they left behind. this is fantasy at best and a make-belief.

What about the martyred saints in Revelation 6:10 who are standing before the throne of God in heaven and crying out for vengeance against those who dwell on earth ?! And the Tribulation martyrs who will join them ?! Doesn't sound to me like they are unaware of what is happening here on earth, does it ?! Why does God "wipe away all the tears from their eyes" and there shall be no more "crying or weeping", if they aren't distressed (Rev. 21:4) ???

only God can act in our behalf today in this life,

Only God can act on our behalf today ??? What about the two witnesses (prophets) in Revelation 11 ??? They have the power to slay their enemies, to shut up the heavens so it doesn't rain, and strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they will. Certainly sounds like an intervention and someone acting on our behalf to me.

Didn't God send Ananias to restore Saul's sight after Saul was blinded on the road to Damascus, (Acts 9:12) ?! It sounds to me like you are saying in your statement, God never uses people to perform miracles, intervene in the lives of others, or to witness, or prophesy. Clearly that isn't the case and is an unscriptural position. Sometimes when God acts in our behalf, He uses people to do it. He doesn't always intervene directly himself.

It's equally clear, from the story of the resurrected saints that witnessed in Jerusalem after Christ's resurrection, God also has used the departed to witness to, or intervene in the lives of the living, (Matthew 27:53). So your whole argument is unfounded and unscriptural. Actually, it is the exact opposite of what is stated in the Scripture.

 

[All4Christ]

our feelings are not the best judge of defining right and wrong. traditions/practices did not start from nowhere, but somebody, sometime ago, somewhere 'felt' something ought to be right..eventually became a norm. to solidify the norm, most of the time they would grab the holy book and look for any implied messages that would support it to give the norm authority and permanence.

what we do know from scripture is that those with Christ and have passed-on in a better place, those who don't are awaiting judgment. i do believe in the afterlife, but I would not assume our reality, the laws of time, space or gravity, or the laws of physics still apply in their reality and that our deceased love ones are loitering somewhere peeping and eavesdropping on those they left behind. this is fantasy at best and a make-belief.

what i am pointing out is that those who still do converse with their departed actually have it in their thoughts/belief (even if they deny it) one way or another that their departed still has the capacity to listen to them, and can even perhaps act in their behalf.

only God can act in our behalf today in this life, this is the testament shown in scripture. all sort of mediums, necromancy are considered an abomination- rightly so for the main reason that faith is not directed to God but to them. the inevitably of death and our fear of it (for ourselves and for our loved ones) should always drive us helplessly towards God.

You may have done this; however, I would like to know if you ever tried to learn the underlying beliefs of Orthodox Christians or Catholic Christians on this matter - without bias one way or the other.

I'm not here to debate (don't have time right now as it is crazy busy for me now) but I suggest to all who have the belief that those who ask for intercession of the dead are participating in necromancy (or that it is unbiblical and different from the early church) - to step back and learn why people believe what they believe and find out the origin of it without using sources that are backing what you believe. Use a synthesis of sources to learn.

Best of luck in your search!

 

[stephen583]

i do believe in the afterlife, but I would not assume our reality, the laws of time, space or gravity, or the laws of physics still apply in their reality and that our deceased love ones are loitering somewhere peeping and eavesdropping on those they left behind. this is fantasy at best and a make-belief.

Consider the two following Scriptural proofs, which says the deceased are absolutely aware of what is happening here on earth and do intercede on our behalf in heaven before God.

The first appears in Revelation 5:8, where the saints in heaven are described as having harps and golden vials of odours "WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS". A direct contradiction to your statement, saying the departed in heaven do not pray for the living.

Another appears in Luke 15:10 where Jesus says, "Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents".

Who is supposed to be expressing this joy before the angels of God, if it isn't the saints who are already in heaven ??? Only God ? It doesn't actually say who is joyous. What about the statement found in Revelation 5:8 ? What are the saints PRAYING FOR ? The REPENTANCE of the living ??? Wouldn't they then be "joyous" if their prayers were answered ?! Sounds logical to me. It also sounds like a case of Scripture interpreting Scripture. I don't believe it is only God who rejoices in heaven when a sinner repents.

I'm sorry, Geralt, but my Bible simply reads differently than yours does. The departed saints do pray and they do intercede on the behalf of the living.

As I said before, I am not, nor have I ever been a Catholic or member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.. but I do understand where they get their doctrine from in which they call on saints in heaven to intercede on their behalf. I hope this is the kind of "understanding" you were referring to CF member, "All4Christ".

 

[All4Christ]

As I said before, I am not, nor have I ever been a Catholic or member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.. but I do understand where they get their doctrine from in which they call on saints in heaven to intercede on their behalf. I hope this is the kind of "understanding" you were referring to CF member, "All4Christ".

Exactly what I was referring to.

Once we join the Church Triumphant - how much more are we focused on praising God and lifting up prayers to him!! I ask them to intercede for us just as I ask my fellow Christians here to intercede for me. None help me of their own power - all power and help comes from God. However, we are to lift up the prayers of our brethren to God - and I believe that continues even after death.

 

[stephen583]

As I indicated before, having lived in New Orleans almost my entire life (a city steeped in the occult and its' practioners)... I am very familiar with what Voodoo, necromancy and witchcraft is and isn't, and praying to saints in church or otherwise (aside from Santarianism) simply doesn't qualify as Voodoo, necromancy, sorcery or witchcraft.

 

[Geralt]

their is only one belief that has authority and binds the conscience - God's revelation in scripture.

beliefs, traditions and culture amassed and developed throughout history by different races or sects does not have authority in itself. the pharisees with their long tradition learned that the hard way.

You may have done this; however, I would like to know if you ever tried to learn the underlying beliefs of Orthodox Christians or Catholic Christians on this matter - without bias one way or the other.

I'm not here to debate (don't have time right now as it is crazy busy for me now) but I suggest to all who have the belief that those who ask for intercession of the dead are participating in necromancy (or that it is unbiblical and different from the early church) - to step back and learn why people believe what they believe and find out the origin of it without using sources that are backing what you believe. Use a synthesis of sources to learn.

Best of luck in your search!

 

[Geralt]

Rev 5:8 are NOT the saints in heaven, but simply described as the 4 beasts and 24 elders. This does not in any way say the saints - which you assumed to be actually present in that passage aside from their prayers - are actually praying for those on earth and intercede for them. You are forcing an idea not in that passage.

Luke 15:10 Joy in heaven over one repentant sinner in that passage does not say 'the saints' are the ones that are rejoicing. You are forcing your speculative idea in the passage or context.

This kind of speculation is the main reason why the plain truth of scripture is distorted. No offense meant. Mystics or mysticism adopt this kind of reading and thinking, and so does the cults.

Consider the two following Scriptural proofs, which says the deceased are absolutely aware of what is happening here on earth and do intercede on our behalf in heaven before God.

The first appears in Revelation 5:8, where the saints in heaven are described as having harps and golden vials of odours "WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS". A direct contradiction to your statement, saying the departed in heaven do not pray for the living.

Another appears in Luke 15:10 where Jesus says, "Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents".

Who is supposed to be expressing this joy before the angels of God, if it isn't the saints who are already in heaven ??? Only God ? It doesn't actually say who is joyous. What about the statement found in Revelation 5:8 ? What are the saints PRAYING FOR ? The REPENTANCE of the living ??? Wouldn't they then be "joyous" if their prayers were answered ?! Sounds logical to me. It also sounds like a case of Scripture interpreting Scripture. I don't believe it is only God who rejoices in heaven when a sinner repents.

I'm sorry, Geralt, but my Bible simply reads differently than yours does. The departed saints do pray and they do intercede on the behalf of the living.

As I said before, I am not, nor have I ever been a Catholic or member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.. but I do understand where they get their doctrine from in which they call on saints in heaven to intercede on their behalf. I hope this is the kind of "understanding" you were referring to CF member, "All4Christ".

 

[MoonofIsaiah]

The thing I find distasteful, is when Christians automatically label any "spiritual" contact whatsoever as demonic, or lending itself to necromancy. From the standpoint of Christian theology, that's totally ridiculous. As I proved in post #54 the Old and New Testament are loaded with resurrection stories, even some in which the dead once having been resurrected, actually witness to the living.

I think the problem arises from not knowing the definition of Necromancy when it is employed to berate something like what is in the OP. While pride prohibits looking up the word so as to avoid the mistake of invoking Necromancy in a thread like this.

I find it fascinating that an atheist would wish to speak to their dead loved one's. That's encouraging in that they're seeking comfort from that which is unseen but was once known to exist. Sort of parallels the religious and their professions and experiences.

I find nothing wrong with speaking to our dead loved one's in meditation or prayer. The landscape of America is dotted with stone monuments dedicated to housing the dead. People visit cemeteries, decorate graves, and talk to their loved ones buried beneath the grass every day somewhere in this nation.
And who can say that spirit that returns to the God that made it, per scripture, doesn't hear. In a world where really weird things are happening with greater frequency, someone speaking for their own sake and comfort to their dead mother in a prayer or meditation is the least to worry about. And besides that it is no one elses business as to what brings comfort to the individual who grieves.

 

[stephen583]

Rev 5:8 are NOT the saints in heaven, but simply described as the 4 beasts and 24 elders. This does not in any way say the saints - which you assumed to be actually present in that passage aside from their prayers - are actually praying for those on earth and intercede for them. You are forcing an idea not in that passage.

Luke 15:10 Joy in heaven over one repentant sinner in that passage does not say 'the saints' are the ones that are rejoicing. You are forcing your speculative idea in the passage or context.

These patently false assertions you make are totally ridiculous. Anyone who reads these passages can easily see you are the one distorting Scripture, not me. Revelation 5:8 refers specifically in plain English to the "Prayers of the Saints". The only way you can make those words disappear, is to rip that page out of the Bible. As for Luke 15:10.. See Revelation 5:8 for the context.. Unless you intend to rip Luke 15:10 out of the Bible as well.

 

[keltoi]

These patently false assertions you make are totally ridiculous. Anyone who reads these passages can easily see you are the one distorting Scripture, not me. Revelation 5:8 refers specifically in plain English to the "Prayers of the Saints". The only way you can make those words disappear, is to rip that page out of the Bible. As for Luke 15:10.. See Revelation 5:8 for the context.. Unless you intend to rip Luke 15:10 out of the Bible as well.

Be aware that all Christians are saints. Also be aware that Luke 15:10 doesn't mention Saints but does mention Angles in the link you have in your post.