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Taking Questions on Embedded Age Creation

truthpls

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That's a meaningless response, amounting to nothing more than "things happen". FYI, that sort of thing doesn't fly in science.
? Who cares what flies in the overactive natural only imagination of science? Try to realize that the natural has nothing to do with creation.
Uh, yes it is!

You're proposing a scenario where God created one set of rocks with ratios of parent-daughter elements consistent with being 400 MYO, then created another set of rocks above those first rocks with different parent-daughter ratios, consistent with being 350 MYO, then another set of rocks above that with parent-daughter ratios consisent with 325 MYO, etc.
No. The ratios had nothing to do with any ages. The ages are something you manufacture by looking at the different ratios and assigning ages based on current processes.
Why?


Huh? So you believe God created rocks with no parent or daughter isotopes at all, and they just showed up in the rocks later?
? I assume that all the ratios were there at creation more or less. They only BECAME parent or daughters after when the rules and nature He set up here took effect
Ok, you accept that the eruptions that produced the ash layers actually happened. Do you also accept that the events that produced other strata actually happened?
The question is what events. Lots of events happened in creation moments. Lots of events happened as God then formed the world and made land etc. Then plenty happened later also.
Whether or not you have the courage and humility to admit it, lake varves and ice cores really do show patterns consistent with annual cycles. You can try and wave them away, but that doesn't change reality.
The pattern could also fit other scenarios. Basically something deposited layers on a regular basis.
That's quite a claim. Have you actually studied lake varves and ice cores?
You can bring us up to snuff
You're free to believe whatever you wish, and you're free to deny and wave away as much reality as you want. But that only affects you. In the real world, science will go on without a single concern about your beliefs and wishes.
Creation is reality. Jesus is reality. The fabricated models based on only the natural that you concoct are not reality
It would have to be deception for God to put annual rings in trees for years that never happened, to place starlight already en route to the earth that depicts supernovae that never happened,
Why would little specks of light in far away space (supernovas etc) never happen? If God made the oceans, why would storms and earthquakes and tsunamis etc not happen? You seem to be thinking that the time involved out there is anything like natural based models have imagined it was! That is the error, not that stuff happens out there.

How long did the tree of life take to grow? What was it's life cycle like, and how could there have been 12 different types of fruit on the tree? You don't know. What do you think the rings on that tree of life actually represented in time? Ha. You have no idea. All you do is look at nature today and invent accordingly
to place annual layers in lake varves and ice cores for years that never happened,
? Not the way you thought apparently at least.
to place geologic strata and their parent-daughter ratios in a manner consistent with billions of years of history that never actually happened.
There was no parent daughter material at creation. It never got here that way. The processes came later, after it existed.
Those are a lot of very deliberate actions God would have to undertake, which brings up the obvious question....why? And why never mention it at all in scripture?
He is not in the business of redoing creation and doing the things you thought He needed to do to fit your natural only dreamscapes.
 
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truthpls

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Back then, I believe they knew that in the context of creation, day does not mean 24 hours. When Moses said God created in 6 days, they understood that it is not literal.
So when it says He was in the mountain 40 days that is literal?
 
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tampasteve

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Aaron112

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If God created the universe and earth with embedded age, it would require a lot of manipulations on a lot of fronts, for no apparent purpose other than to deceive.

For example, if God created starlight "already en route" to the earth (or some variation of that), it would mean that God created light that shows cosmic events that didn't actually happen. That light we're looking at that shows a supernova from 8 billion LY away? It was actually just created to look that way and the supernova didn't even occur.

Did God create those fruit trees in a mature state, with annual rings already in them? If He did, then isn't that deceptive since those years never actually existed?
Jordan, Welcome , peace, shalom, in Jesus.
I only and just now read this post , and a few questions came up in my thoughts, for good, aiming at truth and clarity in all things.
Was Mary born with a complete womb already present ? (no)
Was Chava created with a complete womb already present ? (yes)
Was there ever a supernova 8 billion LY away ? (no one knows except the Creator and Jesus)
When Jesus created wine (or the best ever juice of grapes) , the house guests and others there acknowledged it was the best they had had / tasted. Did they EXPECT or think that it came from grapes from a vineyard somewhere ?

Well, that's all for the moment. Might be necessary for a different thread; even a different forum ? A lot of ungodly speculation is posted around this one, too much to read thru, with no known benefit. It seems a lot of humanism, et al, is encouraged/ supported, contrary to all Scripture.
 
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River Jordan

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? Who cares what flies in the overactive natural only imagination of science?
You apparently, given how much time you've spent arguing about it.

Try to realize that the natural has nothing to do with creation.
Why do you believe God can't use natural means to create things?

No. The ratios had nothing to do with any ages. The ages are something you manufacture by looking at the different ratios and assigning ages based on current processes.

? I assume that all the ratios were there at creation more or less.
So how did they get there? And why do you think anyone else besides you should accept your assumptions?

They only BECAME parent or daughters after when the rules and nature He set up here took effect
Where did you get that from? Did you just make it up?

The question is what events. Lots of events happened in creation moments. Lots of events happened as God then formed the world and made land etc. Then plenty happened later also.
So how do you decide which events evidenced in the geologic record happened, and which ones didn't?

The pattern could also fit other scenarios. Basically something deposited layers on a regular basis.
What scenarios? What "something"?

You can bring us up to snuff
That's not an answer. Have you worked with or studied ice cores or lake varves? Yes or no.

Creation is reality. Jesus is reality.
That's what we believe, yes.

The fabricated models based on only the natural that you concoct are not reality
That's your opinion. But unless you actually do the work to demonstrate that to be so, and share it with scientists, that's all it'll ever be...your opinion.

Why would little specks of light in far away space (supernovas etc) never happen?
Think about it for a sec. Under the embedded age idea, God would have to create the starlight from distant stars, galaxies, etc. already here. If He'd created the stars and galaxies where they are and let the light get to us on its own, we wouldn't see them until billions of years later. So with supernovae that are billions of light years away whose light we can see from earth right now, under embedded age God must have created that light pretty much as is, already here and showing the process of stars in their last stages of decline (going supernova).

But it takes much longer than one day for a star to go supernova and the light showing that event to get from the star to earth.

So how can that be?

If God made the oceans, why would storms and earthquakes and tsunamis etc not happen?
I don't recall anyone saying they wouldn't.

You seem to be thinking that the time involved out there is anything like natural based models have imagined it was! That is the error, not that stuff happens out there.
Well, in order for you to convince anyone of your beliefs about embedded age and creation, you're going to have to get into the details and provide some evidence. FYI, most people aren't going to be swayed by simplistic rhetoric from some random person in an internet forum.

How long did the tree of life take to grow? What was it's life cycle like, and how could there have been 12 different types of fruit on the tree? You don't know. What do you think the rings on that tree of life actually represented in time? Ha. You have no idea. All you do is look at nature today and invent accordingly
Exactly! We don't know because we don't have that tree to study, and here's the kicker....neither do you.

? Not the way you thought apparently at least.
You've given absolutely no reason to think otherwise.

There was no parent daughter material at creation. It never got here that way. The processes came later, after it existed.
How do you know that?

[quote[He is not in the business of redoing creation and doing the things you thought He needed to do to fit your natural only dreamscapes.
[/QUOTE]
You still didn't answer the question. At this point, I can only assume you keep dodging the question because you don't have an explanation for why God would go out of His way to manipulate so many different things to make things look older than they actually are, and never once mention it in scripture.
 
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River Jordan

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Jordan, Welcome , peace, shalom, in Jesus.
Thank you Aaron! :)

Was Mary born with a complete womb already present ? (no)
I never knew that was even a question.

[quote[Was Chava created with a complete womb already present ? (yes)[/quote]
How do you know that?

Was there ever a supernova 8 billion LY away ? (no one knows except the Creator and Jesus)
I'm confident that if we can see something like that, it's real. I've seen no reason to conclude otherwise.

When Jesus created wine (or the best ever juice of grapes) , the house guests and others there acknowledged it was the best they had had / tasted. Did they EXPECT or think that it came from grapes from a vineyard somewhere ?
No, because He did it right in front of them.

Well, that's all for the moment. Might be necessary for a different thread; even a different forum ? A lot of ungodly speculation is posted around this one, too much to read thru, with no known benefit. It seems a lot of humanism, et al, is encouraged/ supported, contrary to all Scripture.
As someone who's both a scientist and a Christian, it really bothers me when I see other Christians telling people that they have to choose between the conclusions of science and Christianity. I've personally seen it drive several people away, and that's always stuck with me.
 
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Aaron112

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I'm confident that if we can see something like that, it's real. I've seen no reason to conclude otherwise.
Sometimes what is seen is real. Sometimes not. If YHVH Reveals something, anything to someone, it is certainly truth. If scientists(or anyone) explain something, it needs to be tested before being accepted.
No, because He did it right in front of them.
Did the guests at the wedding know that Jesus provided the refreshments ?
 
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River Jordan

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Sometimes what is seen is real. Sometimes not. If YHVH Reveals something, anything to someone, it is certainly truth. If scientists(or anyone) explain something, it needs to be tested before being accepted.
Ok.

Did the guests at the wedding know that Jesus provided the refreshments ?
According to scripture, only the servants knew.
 
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roman2819

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? Who cares what flies in the overactive natural only imagination of science? Try to realize that the natural has nothing to do with creation.

No. The ratios had nothing to do with any ages. The ages are something you manufacture by looking at the different ratios and assigning ages based on current processes.

? I assume that all the ratios were there at creation more or less. They only BECAME parent or daughters after when the rules and nature He set up here took effect

The question is what events. Lots of events happened in creation moments. Lots of events happened as God then formed the world and made land etc. Then plenty happened later also.

The pattern could also fit other scenarios. Basically something deposited layers on a regular basis.

You can bring us up to snuff

Creation is reality. Jesus is reality. The fabricated models based on only the natural that you concoct are not reality

Why would little specks of light in far away space (supernovas etc) never happen? If God made the oceans, why would storms and earthquakes and tsunamis etc not happen? You seem to be thinking that the time involved out there is anything like natural based models have imagined it was! That is the error, not that stuff happens out there.

How long did the tree of life take to grow? What was it's life cycle like, and how could there have been 12 different types of fruit on the tree? You don't know. What do you think the rings on that tree of life actually represented in time? Ha. You have no idea. All you do is look at nature today and invent accordingly

? Not the way you thought apparently at least.

There was no parent daughter material at creation. It never got here that way. The processes came later, after it existed.

He is not in the business of redoing creation and doing the things you thought He needed to do to fit your natural only dreamscapes.

Jesus fasted for 40 days, Moses in mountain 40 days., the hebrews wondered in the desert for 40 years. Many of the kings including David reigned for 40 years. I believe the number 40 has a certain connotation and not always literal. However they refer to the physical months and days as we know now. However, the word 'day' with regard to creation is certainly not 24 hours, but instead, refer to a passage of time or stage of time. The creation happened created in stages
 
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Aaron112

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However, the word 'day' with regard to creation is certainly not 24 hours,
re-check this. I believe 'day' is 24 hours, and this is confirmed in Scripture. (related to the Instructions of Shabbat).
 
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BCP1928

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So when it says He was in the mountain 40 days that is literal?
Different story, different characters, different author, different language, different literary conventions, there is no comparison. But the number 40 has symbolic significance throughout the Bible, ultimately stemming from the 40 weeks of human gestation.
 
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truthpls

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Why do you believe God can't use natural means to create things?
Why should we think that? What natural means was used to have a resurrection body? Or walking on water? Why would we say He is limited to the natural?
So how did they get there? And why do you think anyone else besides you should accept your assumptions?
The same way the rock and universe and world got here. God spoke and it was so. That's what creation is all about
Where did you get that from? Did you just make it up?
Well, the process of elimination. They got there from creation, not from decay. Therefore the processes of decay is not what made the rock.
So how do you decide which events evidenced in the geologic record happened, and which ones didn't?
Why would any not happen? They never happened the way natural only dunnit folks think.
What scenarios? What "something"?
Scenarios like the pools from the fountains of the deep having ebbs and flows daily.
That's not an answer. Have you worked with or studied ice cores or lake varves? Yes or no.
Not so much
That's what we believe, yes.
And part of that reality is that Jesus was telling the truth about Scripture, that it is from God and right.
That's your opinion. But unless you actually do the work to demonstrate that to be so, and share it with scientists, that's all it'll ever be...your opinion.
No that is fact, only the natural is used in your models and a lot of history was not natural at all.
Think about it for a sec. Under the embedded age idea, God would have to create the starlight from distant stars, galaxies, etc. already here.
No. The earth was here first. Stars came days later. So if you created lights in the sky for man and animals on earth, would you not make it seen there?
If He'd created the stars and galaxies where they are and let the light get to us on its own, we wouldn't see them until billions of years later.
According to your concept of the universe. (as some uncreated thing)
So with supernovae that are billions of light years away whose light we can see from earth right now,
None of your distances are right. Not a one for the stars. They are natural only reasoning and belief.
under embedded age God must have created that light pretty much as is, already here and showing the process of stars in their last stages of decline (going supernova).
The so called decline you speak of takes millions of years right? No such thing. The actual processes and new things made and old things that go away or whatever has zero to do with millions of years.
But it takes much longer than one day for a star to go supernova and the light showing that event to get from the star to earth.
So what? That is only in your head that it takes that much time let's see the proof.
Well, in order for you to convince anyone of your beliefs about embedded age and creation, you're going to have to get into the details and provide some evidence. FYI, most people aren't going to be swayed by simplistic rhetoric from some random person in an internet forum.
Apparently many have been swayed by simplistic, naturalonlydunnit ideas.
Exactly! We don't know because we don't have that tree to study, and here's the kicker....neither do you.
Great so we can leave it at that. You do not know. So rings of trees may not be entered into evidence
How do you know that?
We know that creation came before all natural processes. Adam had to be alive first before his metabolism was working to eat for example.

Nice try
 
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truthpls

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Jesus fasted for 40 days, Moses in mountain 40 days., the hebrews wondered in the desert for 40 years. Many of the kings including David reigned for 40 years. I believe the number 40 has a certain connotation and now always literal. However they refer to the physical months and days as we know now. However, the word 'day' with regard to creation is certainly not 24 hours, but instead, refer to a passage of time or stage of time. The creation happened created in stages
How about Moses years he lived? How about Jesus dying for 3 days? The word day refers to a day unless the context is otherwise.
 
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truthpls

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Different story, different characters, different author, different language, different literary conventions, there is no comparison. But the number 40 has symbolic significance throughout the Bible, ultimately stemming from the 40 weeks of human gestation.
40 days Jesus fasted. That does not mean He fasted for a million years.
 
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River Jordan

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Why should we think that?
Easy.

Amos 4 says God creates mountains and wind. We see mountains and winds forming by natural means right now. So if you believe scripture and your own eyes, God creates mountains and winds by natural means.

What natural means was used to have a resurrection body? Or walking on water? Why would we say He is limited to the natural?
Because it's not an either-or situation. God can use natural means to create as well as supernatural means.

The same way the rock and universe and world got here. God spoke and it was so. That's what creation is all about
No, there's nothing in scripture about God putting or manipulating element ratios in rocks. You're just making that up, which is turning out to be a theme.

Well, the process of elimination. They got there from creation, not from decay. Therefore the processes of decay is not what made the rock.
Not only are you still just making up your own scenarios, you're getting confused (no one is saying radioactive decay "makes the rock").

Why would any not happen? They never happened the way natural only dunnit folks think.
Never mind.

Scenarios like the pools from the fountains of the deep having ebbs and flows daily.
Again, another scenario you just made up off the top of your head. This is getting silly.

Not so much

And part of that reality is that Jesus was telling the truth about Scripture, that it is from God and right.

No that is fact, only the natural is used in your models and a lot of history was not natural at all.

No. The earth was here first. Stars came days later. So if you created lights in the sky for man and animals on earth, would you not make it seen there?

According to your concept of the universe. (as some uncreated thing)

None of your distances are right. Not a one for the stars. They are natural only reasoning and belief.

The so called decline you speak of takes millions of years right? No such thing. The actual processes and new things made and old things that go away or whatever has zero to do with millions of years.

So what? That is only in your head that it takes that much time let's see the proof.

Apparently many have been swayed by simplistic, naturalonlydunnit ideas.

Great so we can leave it at that. You do not know. So rings of trees may not be entered into evidence

We know that creation came before all natural processes. Adam had to be alive first before his metabolism was working to eat for example.

Nice try
It's all a repeat of the same basic theme.

You've created a rather unique interpretation of scripture that includes assuming things not in it, adding things to it, and just plain making things up in a completely ad hoc manner (IOW you just make things up in the moment, as needed, off the top of your head).

From that, you've created a rather bizarre reality where a lot of what we think we see isn't really as it seems, specifically because God tinkered with various processes, events, etc., for reasons you can't explain.

Then you chastise, often in very abrasive ways, anyone and anything that doesn't agree or align with this unique, and personal version of reality.

I humbly suggest that if you want to persuade people over to your views, you give them a reason to do so. Since we''re in a Physical and Life Sciences sub-forum, posting some evidence that you believe supports your version of reality would be a good start.
 
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Kylie

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But whatever is tested and repeated, it had to come from something first, didn't it?

Else it can't be tested ... right?
You know that you've been told why the first cause argument doesn't hold up, right? Why do you keep resorting to those points refuted a thousand times?
 
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Kylie

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Once again you call true things untrue
Since you don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to science, you are in no position to claim they are untrue.
In other words the natural and nothing but the natural. That is why it can't talk about the creation of God. That was not natural.
No.

See, once again, you repeat a claim even after I have told you it is untrue.
You are welcome to speak, but what you sat will be weighed in the balances and so far you have been found wanting.
Remind me, what does the Bible say about judging not, lest ye be judged?

For someone who claims to hold the Bible in such high regard, you seem quite happy to ignore its advice whenever you want.
 
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