Symbols in the Book of Revelation

[keras]

setst RE: True. However, for clarification, the Lord's Day is not the same as the Tribulation. The Day of God's wrath occurs at the end of the Tribulation - which is cut short unless all men were destroyed. The Islamic nations will come against Israel before that Great Day of God's Wrath.

Blessings

This is not correct and violates the given sequence of Revelation. Plainly the Sixth Seal is years before the end of the GT and when Jesus Returns, He simply disposes of the attacking armies at Armageddon and chains up Satan. Revelation 19:11-21

 

[setst777]

<<
setst777 said: ↑
setst RE: True. However, for clarification, the Lord's Day is not the same as the Tribulation. The Day of God's wrath occurs at the end of the Tribulation - which is cut short unless all men were destroyed. The Islamic nations will come against Israel before that Great Day of God's Wrath.

Blessings
>>

This is not correct and violates the given sequence of Revelation. Plainly the Sixth Seal is years before the end of the GT and when Jesus Returns, He simply disposes of the attacking armies at Armageddon and chains up Satan. Revelation 19:11-21

setst RE: Revelation 19 describes exactly what I stated.

Revelation 19:13
15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

In this great battle, the beast and false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire, therefore, this wrath of God comes after the Tribulation. After God's wrath is poured out, and the beast and false prophet are done away with, the tribulation is now past, and God's wrath has now been poured out, and now Lord Jesus begins to reign with a rod of iron.

Revelation 19:17-21
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

You are thinking that Revelation is organized in chronological order. That is not the case. Rather events are unfolded and described in more detail within the chapters of Revelation.

 

[Christian Gedge]

The Anti-Christ will destroy the RCC, Revelation 17:16, and demand on pain of death; worship of himself.

That's what it seems to be saying. Not just the RCC, but the whole lot of us. I get the impression from 'new age' rumblings that they want to put Christians, Muslims, and Jews into a melting pot, and come up with religion of their own making. Needless to say, Jesus' divinity would be denied. Antichrist will be the new Messiah. Scary.

 

[keras]

Why would the AC need to put a stop to animal sacrificing in a Jewish temple? To accomplish exactly what?

It makes perfect sense to put an end to animal sacrificing in a Jewish temple 2000 years ago. It does not make perfect sense to do it yet again some 2000 years later, but this time the AC causing it to cease.

God's sense makes your sense; nonsense.

 

[keras]

<<
setst777 said: ↑
setst RE: True. However, for clarification, the Lord's Day is not the same as the Tribulation. The Day of God's wrath occurs at the end of the Tribulation - which is cut short unless all men were destroyed. The Islamic nations will come against Israel before that Great Day of God's Wrath.

setst RE: Revelation 19 describes exactly what I stated.

Revelation 19:13
15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

In this great battle, the beast and false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire, therefore, this wrath of God comes after the Tribulation. .

It is the Judgement of God that destroys the beast and the FP.

Jesus will Return to rule the world, not to destroy it .
His terrible Day of fiery wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible, will commence the end times and the surviviors will establish a One World Govt. Those who stood strong in their faith during that Day, all the faithful Christians, will travel to and live in all of the holy Land. John sees them there in Revelation 7:9
They are there when the AC conquers them; Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, but many are taken to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14, for the 1260 of the Great Trib.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I understand your angle. I also appreciate your knowledge and heart for history.

Anything is obviously possible, but the understanding of the NT writers from Christ's statement re the temple was that the temple was spiritual.

Another side note is that according to this, Jesus could not come any day. We are going to have to wait for this rebuilding in order for this to occur. I struggle with that.

Fair enough, but the dispies are going to wave 2 Thess 2:4 in your face. Having said that, you do have the prophecy of a great falling away, and yes, we are Gods temple.

 

[DavidPT]

God's sense makes your sense; nonsense.

You have your right to your opinion, yet I'm guessing, God who already knows what will be, is not seeing a literal temple in the future, with animal sacrificing resuming, then being put to a stop yet again, except this time around, the AC causing it to cease by placing an abomination in a temple God has zero use for to begin with.

 

[DavidPT]

setst RE: True. However, for clarification, the Lord's Day is not the same as the Tribulation. The Day of God's wrath occurs at the end of the Tribulation - which is cut short unless all men were destroyed. The Islamic nations will come against Israel before that Great Day of God's Wrath.

I don't know if you are correct about that last sentence or not, but everything else you said is spot on. I fully agree with those parts.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Fair enough, but the dispies are going to wave 2 Thess 2:4 in your face. Having said that, you do have the prophecy of a great falling away, and yes, we are Gods temple.

I take it to fit in with the context of the falling away: the flesh operating in the midst of the people of God, as if it were God. We are there now!

 

[DavidPT]

God's sense makes your sense; nonsense.

Keras, I'll tell you what, if, in the near future, the Jews rebuild a temple in Jerusalem where the other one stood, then resume animal sacrificing in this temple, I will be the first to admit that I apparently got these things bad wrong. But until then, I think I will just stick with my current position, that even though I think the 70th week is in the end of the age, it won't be involving literal temples in Jerusalem, where animal sacrificing resumes, etc.

 

[setst777]

It is the Judgement of God that destroys the beast and the FP.

Jesus will Return to rule the world, not to destroy it .
His terrible Day of fiery wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible, will commence the end times and the surviviors will establish a One World Govt. Those who stood strong in their faith during that Day, all the faithful Christians, will travel to and live in all of the holy Land. John sees them there in Revelation 7:9
They are there when the AC conquers them; Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, but many are taken to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14, for the 1260 of the Great Trib.

setst RE: The Great Tribulation is a result of the Beast and the False Prophet being in power. In the Battle of Armageddon, God destroys the armies and throws the Beast and False prophet alive into the Lake of Fire. The Tribulation has ended, and God sets up the Rule of Christ on earth for 1000 years.

After the 1000 years, Satan will be released one last time to deceive the nations, and they will again surround Israel to attack her, but fire comes from God to destroy the armies. After that, the New Heavens and New Earth are brought into being and the New Jerusalem steps out of Heaven as the Bride of Christ - and so God will dwell with mankind on earth forever more.

If you have all the armies destroyed in the Battle of Armageddon, and the Beast and False Prophet - who deluded the earth to follow the Anti-Christ - are removed by God, then I wonder why you feel the Tribulation is still in force???

 

[setst777]

Keras, I'll tell you what, if, in the near future, the Jews rebuild a temple in Jerusalem where the other one stood, then resume animal sacrificing in this temple, I will be the first to admit that I apparently got these things bad wrong. But until then, I think I will just stick with my current position, that even though I think the 70th week is in the end of the age, it won't be involving literal temples in Jerusalem, where animal sacrificing resumes, etc.

Matthew 24:12-19 (NIV)
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’ In the middle of the ‘seven (the middle of the one seven begins the Tribulation period)’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 24:12-19 (NIV)
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’ In the middle of the ‘seven (the middle of the one seven begins the Tribulation period)’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

I fully agree with the connections you submitted here. But that doesn't have to mean this will be involving literal temples in Jerusalem though. There was a time in the past where I thought it did, but I have since changed my position on that over the years.

 

[Douggg]

SUN, MOON (Rev 12:1) The sun, moon and 12 stars is the nation of Israel (Genesis 37:9) through whom the human ancestry of Christ is traced. (Romans 9:5)

Okay, on that one, basically.

THE WOMAN (Rev 12:1) The pregnant woman is the true Israel of God - those of faith within natural Israel (Rom 9:6-8) down through the generations (Galatians 3:7) until Mary who finally gave birth to Jesus.

The bible does not refer to an untrue Israel. So I would leave the "true" off.

Israel over there right now is the Israel, the woman, in the rest of Revelation 12, having fulfilled a nation born in a single day in Isaiah 66:7-9.

MAN CHILD

(Rev 12:5) The child of the woman was Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Messiah. (Isaiah 9:6)

agree.

RED DRAGON (Rev 12:3) The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, is Satan with his authority over the kingdoms of the world, and his power to give them to whomsoever he will. (Luke 4:5-6)

THIRD STARS (Rev 12:4, 7-12) A third of the stars, cast out of heaven, were Satan’s angels, defeated during the ministry of Christ. (Luke 10:18)

agree, as far as the dragon being Satan and a third of the stars as being the angels that sided with Satan.

IRON SCEPTRE (Rev 12:5) Christ's rule over the nations with a rod of iron, represents God’s unyielding and all-powerful authority over his enemies. (Psalm 2:9)

The millennium rule of Jesus over the nations.

1260 DAYS (Rev 12:6 13-14) An ancient calendar formula that occured in the last half of the 7-year cycle. Therefore, when used as a symbol, it represents a 'last days' span of time at the end of an era of God's dealing with man.

The first half of the forth coming 7 years in terms of literal days.

HER OFFSPRING (Rev 12:17) Satan turns his attention to the Church – those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 5:8-9)

Refers to the Jews who will not have escaped in the wilderness in time when the AoD is setup. Will be captive, and rescued when Jesus returns in Zechariah 14:2-5.

THE SEA (Rev 13:1, 17:1) The ‘Seas’ from which the beast emerges, and upon which the great harlot is seated, are the turbulent masses of mankind – peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. (Rev 17:15)

agree.

THE BEAST (Rev 13:1) The ‘Beast’ rising from the sea of nations is the aggregation of world power into empires – the end result of secular human government, independent of, and antagonistic to God.

One specific kingdom - the end times roman empire, the final form of the EU. Also the leader of the EU, as dictator, in his final role.

7 HEADS (Rev 17:10) The ‘7 Heads’ are seven empires from history that persecuted the people of God - Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Islam. (cf. Dan 7:17)

wrong on that one. 7kings, not empires according to the text. 7 kings of the fourth kingdom. All related. 7th of which will be the little horn person, in his first role, leader of the roman empire of the end times.

8TH KING (Rev 17:8,11) The ‘8th King’ is the last manifestation of the beast, following a period when no world empire existed. The world will be astonished when it reappears.

Not a manifestation, but a king. The last king of roman empire, having started out as the little horn person - after he claims to be God, and after he is killed and brought back to life.

10 HORNS (Rev 17:12-14) The ‘10 Horns’ are the geo-political regions that make up the last beast empire. Their number is a re-appearance of Daniel’s 10 horns (cf. Dan 7:24) which originally emerged during the breakup of Rome. Therefore, they refer to Europe and the Islamic domains.

No, not regions, but kings, i.e. leaders, hieracrchy of the EU, under the little horn person. Nothing to do with Islam.

THE EARTH (Rev 13:11) The ‘Earth’ from which the second beast emerges, is human wisdom from below – not what comes from above, but earthly, unspiritual, demonic. (James 3:15)

wrong on that one. It is referring to Israel. As opposed to the sea, the rest of the nations.

2nd BEAST (Rev 13:11) The ‘Beast’ rising from the earth, is religious power arising from human wisdom, and serving the secular power (1st beast) by deceiving people into worshiping it. (Rev 13:12-14)

The false prophet, initially claiming to be Elijah, who will anoint the little horn person, following Gog/Magog, as the king of Israel (messiah) making the person the Antichrist. Comes out of the earth, signifying Israel, and soley a man without his own kingdom - different from the dual meaning of the first beast in Revelation 13 of being both a king and a kingdom.

IMAGE OF BEAST (Rev 13:15, 14:9,16:2, 20:4) The final beast will be an empire, but it will also be personified in the form of a man. (2 Thess. 2:4) Other scriptures call him 'Antichrist.' Revelation calls him the 'Image of the Beast.'

The abomination of desolation, to be placed in the temple, triggering the great tribulation.

It will be a statue image of the slain and come back to life first beast person, the 8th king. The false prophet will have the people of the world make the statue. Initially it will be inanimate, simple materials, no technology trickery.

When Satan is cast down to earth, having a time, times, half time left - Satan will incarnate the lifeless image, making it appear to miraculously come to life - and people (the unsaved) will worship the image.

 

[DavidPT]

Why is the 'woman' metaphorical in your list when the 'child' is identified as a real person (Jesus) and even the dragon is identified at the real person (Satan)?

If one has the text meaning a real person, in regards to the woman, while some of the text might seem to make sense, all of it wouldn't though. So let's assume the woman is a real person, in this case Mary. Let's see how that might work with some of the text.

Revelation 12:6 And MARY fled into the wilderness, where MARY hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed MARY there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted MARY which brought forth the man child.
14 And to MARY were given two wings of a great eagle, that MARY might fly into the wilderness, into MARY's place, where MARY is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after MARY, that he might cause MARY to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped MARY, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with MARY, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Who can show in any of the 4 gospels, or anywhere in the Bible for that matter, where any of these things were ever true of Mary at any time? But if one can't, doesn't it seem plainly obvious why the woman should be treated as a symbol rather than a literal single individual?

 

[Christian Gedge]

Okay, on that one, basically.

Thanks for going to the trouble of answering each point one by one. But since we are so different on many of the other points, I wont get into a disagreement with you on each of them. Ill limit my reply just to the 1260 days. You say:

The first half of the forth coming 7 years in terms of literal days.

If we count a last-day period in literal days as you say here, then we will reach a time where we will know the countdown of actual days up until the return of Christ. This is unacceptable because Jesus explicitly told us that no one - not even the angels - would know this day!

I believe it is better to treat the 1260 days as a symbolic figure representing a time of trial. Although short, it should not be interpreted as an exact literal count.

 

[DavidPT]

I believe it is better to treat the 1260 days as a symbolic figure representing a time of trial. Although short, it should not be interpreted as an exact literal count.

I have thought along those same lines before, not that I agree with you here. Still these 1260 days, assuming they mean what you have in bold letters, have to have a literal beginning. So how does one determine when that might be?

 

[Douggg]

If we count a last-day period in literal days as you say here, then we will reach a time where we will know the countdown of actual days up until the return of Christ. This is unacceptable because Jesus explicitly told us that no one - not even the angels - would know this day!

There is at least one leap month (an extra month) in the 7 years, called Adar 2 on the Jewish calendar. There may be two or three over the course of the 7 year, depending on when the 7 years begin.

No-one can therefore project when Jesus is going to return - as far as the exact day. Nor the month, nor the year, at this point. We can know that we are closing in based on the parable of the fig tree... and not be in darkness concering the times.

Once the 7 years begin, although it can be narrowed down considerably (in respect to the 7 years), the exact actually day will work out to more that 2520 days (7 years x 360 days/year) it appears.

But - for purpose of understanding bible prophecy, the 2520 days must be used to represent the 7 years with Jesus returning on day 2520 (if the years were exactly 360 days each, with no leap months).

The general segments are in order: 1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 1256 1/2 days (called 42 months) = 2520 days.

Another way, taking into account Satan's time left after he is cast down to earth: 1260 days + 3 1/2 days + war in second heaven time + time, times, half time = 2520 days.

The time, times, half time is the unknown factor, as far as exactly how many days it is.
________________________________________________________

The main point I was making though was that the 1260 days is the first half of the 7 years, not the second half. The second half is not expressed as 1260 days, but a combination of other units.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If one has the text meaning a real person, in regards to the woman, while some of the text might seem to make sense, all of it wouldn't though. So let's assume the woman is a real person, in this case Mary. Let's see how that might work with some of the text.

Revelation 12:6 And MARY fled into the wilderness, where MARY hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed MARY there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted MARY which brought forth the man child.
14 And to MARY were given two wings of a great eagle, that MARY might fly into the wilderness, into MARY's place, where MARY is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after MARY, that he might cause MARY to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped MARY, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with MARY, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Who can show in any of the 4 gospels, or anywhere in the Bible for that matter, where any of these things were ever true of Mary at any time? But if one can't, doesn't it seem plainly obvious why the woman should be treated as a symbol rather than a literal single individual?

Interesting. But if the woman is symbolic, and not Mary as you say it couldn't be, what symbol ever gave birth to a human being who was Jesus the Christ? Where is that in any of the four Gospels?

 

[Christian Gedge]

I have thought along those same lines before, not that I agree with you here. Still these 1260 days, assuming they mean what you have in bold letters, have to have a literal beginning. So how does one determine when that might be?

A formula existed in the original Hebrew calendar before it was tampered with during the Greek era. They used to count 1260 (or 1290) days from the Day of Atonement to the start of a new sabbatical cycle. So, the "literal beginning" was always on the 11th day of Tishri, at the end of the DoA.

So the significance must have had something to do with Atonement and new beginnings? Whenever I see these numbers in the book of Revelation, I get the impression the John was aware of this ancient system, and was using it symbolically.