Symbols in the Book of Revelation

[Christian Gedge]

I’ve put together a chart of symbols from Revelation chapter 12 to17. (would like to do the whole book but got puffed out)

One of the things that intrigues us is how Revelation, although symbolic, also manifests sometimes as literal. Anyway, here is the chart. Please pick out the symbol that interests you and discuss.

 

[DavidPT]

I’ve put together a chart of symbols from Revelation chapter 12 to17. (would like to do the whole book but got puffed out)

One of the things that intrigues us is how Revelation, although symbolic, also manifests sometimes as literal. Anyway, here is the chart. Please pick out the symbol that interests you and discuss.

View attachment 270433

Let's consider this last symbol listed---Image of the beast. Obviously there is a beginning of it and an ending of it. When would you conclude the beginning of it is?

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast , which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Until verse 14 is fulfilled first, there cannot yet be this image of the beast, correct? What I have underlined, when is this initially fulfilled? One reason I feel it is important to know the when is because of what we are told in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Isn't it reasonable to conclude that there cannot be any martyrs for not worshiping the beast's image, until Revelation 13:14 has been fulfilled first? And in the process doesn't Revelation 13:14 help us determine the timing of Revelation 20:4, telling us at least the time meant in Revelation 13:14-15 is fulfilled and in the past before satan is even loosed after the thousand years, that according to Revelation 20:4?

Or are you of the school of thought that a chronology of events is irrelevant in this particular case?

 

[HTacianas]

Let's consider this last symbol listed---Image of the beast. Obviously there is a beginning of it and an ending of it. When would you conclude the beginning of it is?

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast , which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Until verse 14 is fulfilled first, there cannot yet be this image of the beast, correct? What I have underlined, when is this initially fulfilled? One reason I feel it is important to know the when is because of what we are told in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Isn't it reasonable to conclude that there cannot be any martyrs for not worshiping the beast's image, until Revelation 13:14 has been fulfilled first? And in the process doesn't Revelation 13:14 help us determine the timing of Revelation 20:4, telling us at least the time meant in Revelation 13:14-15 is fulfilled and in the past before satan is even loosed after the thousand years, that according to Revelation 20:4?

Or are you of the school of thought that a chronology of events is irrelevant in this particular case?

What are we to make of those who lived at the time of the writing of the Revelation who were beheaded for refusing to worship the image of the Roman emperor?

 

[DavidPT]

What are we to make of those who lived at the time of the writing of the Revelation who were beheaded for refusing to worship the image of the Roman emperor?

Let's look at some of the texts involved then.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Did anything back then involve anything like what I have underlined above, where it then connected with what you are referring to?

 

[Christian Gedge]

Let's consider this last symbol listed---Image of the beast. Obviously there is a beginning of it and an ending of it. When would you conclude the beginning of it is?

A future day is coming when a shocking event will re-occur centered on an 'antichrist', and around a blasphemous object standing with him in the temple. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Mark 13:14, Daniel 11:36) Whether this is a Jewish temple or a 'politically correct' world religion is a matter of opinion. I personally think the latter, tho we are all guessing when it come to details aren't we?

However, 4 things can be deduced because the abomination has already happened before. (168 BC, 70 AD) Hence a future completion of it will be of the same nature - a final fulfillment in the likeness of previous precursors fulfillments.

• Firstly, the abomination has something to do with the place where the temple once stood.
  
  
• Secondly, it will involve an alternative method of atonement to the blood of Christ.
  
  
• Thirdly, it will culminate in a man claiming to be God and standing where he ought not be.
  
  
• Fourthly, it will erupt into severe tribulation which, except for divine intervention, would destroy mankind.

 

[Christian Gedge]

What are we to make of those who lived at the time of the writing of the Revelation who were beheaded for refusing to worship the image of the Roman emperor?

It was a precursor that will have a more complete fulfillment in the future.

 

[HTacianas]

Let's look at some of the texts involved then.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Did anything back then involve anything like what I have underlined above, where it then connected with what you are referring to?

Sure. This is a scene from the movie Kingdom of Heaven. It depicts fire raining down on Jerusalem.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

With the advance of technology, we can see how the image of the beast can come to be. The artificial intelligent robot called Sophia is interesting. Please view this video, it is only 5 minutes long. What do you all think?

 

[DavidPT]

Sure. This is a scene from the movie Kingdom of Heaven. It depicts fire raining down on Jerusalem.

View attachment 270463

I'm clueless about this movie you are referring to since I never heard of this movie, let alone seen any of it. This fire raining down on Jerusalem in the movie, what is behind it and why is it raining on Jerusalem? And does it involve deceiving anyone at the time, since Revelation 13:13 indicates he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast?

Does any of that sound like the reasons fire is raining down on Jerusalem in that movie you mentioned? But if it doesn't, isn't it a bit of a stretch to even entertain the idea that Revelation 13:13 has anything to do with Jerusalem in the first century?

 

[DavidPT]

With the advance of technology, we can see how the image of the beast can come to be. The artificial intelligent robot called Sophia is interesting. Please view this video, it is only 5 minutes long. What do you all think?

I have been thinking for some time now that this will likely involve AI. And this robot Sophie, I have heard of her and saw videos about her in the past.

 

[DavidPT]

A future day is coming when a shocking event will re-occur centered on an 'antichrist', and around a blasphemous object standing with him in the temple. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Mark 13:14, Daniel 11:36) Whether this is a Jewish temple or a 'politically correct' world religion is a matter of opinion. I personally think the latter, tho we are all guessing when it come to details aren't we?

If it were to be a Jewish temple where that took place, why would the rest of the world care one way or the other about it? Though I don't know if your latter opinion is correct, it at least sounds more reasonable than the former to me.

 

[HTacianas]

I'm clueless about this movie you are referring to since I never heard of this movie, let alone seen any of it. This fire raining down on Jerusalem in the movie, what is behind it and why is it raining on Jerusalem? And does it involve deceiving anyone at the time, since Revelation 13:13 indicates he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast?

Does any of that sound like the reasons fire is raining down on Jerusalem in that movie you mentioned? But if it doesn't, isn't it a bit of a stretch to even entertain the idea that Revelation 13:13 has anything to do with Jerusalem in the first century?

The best way to get fire to fall down from heaven is to fling it up in the air. Just like the hailstones the weight of a talent. It describes the projectiles from Roman trebuchets. The miracles performed were Greek and Egyptian "magic". They made vending machines that dispensed water and even made their idols speak. To the simple people of the time all those things seemed like miracles.

If you take the story of the destruction of Jerusalem, tell it using the imagery of the old testament prophets, mix in the plagues of Egypt, organize in the order of the ancient temple liturgy, and describe the armies by their religious symbols, you get the Revelation.

 

[DavidPT]

I’ve put together a chart of symbols from Revelation chapter 12 to17. (would like to do the whole book but got puffed out)

One of the things that intrigues us is how Revelation, although symbolic, also manifests sometimes as literal. Anyway, here is the chart. Please pick out the symbol that interests you and discuss.

View attachment 270433

What about this iron Sceptor symbol in your chart? Since your chart is an image, therefore can't copy any of the text from it then paste into this thread(I hate typing any more than I have to, call me lazy I guess). Are you then applying that to the here and now? Revelation 19 seems to indicate that the timing of it is after John saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

A big majority of us interpret this as the 2nd coming. Do you interpret this differently?

 

[DavidPT]

If you take the story of the destruction of Jerusalem, tell it using the imagery of the old testament prophets, mix in the plagues of Egypt, organize in the order of the ancient temple liturgy, and describe the armies by their religious symbols, you get the Revelation.

I think I'm grasping your methodology here, yet this is vastly different than the methodology I use. My perspective is that there are two advents of Christ, so I don't see Revelation being limited to just the first century up until 70 AD.

 

[HTacianas]

I think I'm grasping your methodology here, yet this is vastly different than the methodology I use. My perspective is that there are two advents of Christ, so I don't see Revelation being limited to just the first century up until 70 AD.

The entire story is not limited only to the first century. It extends far forward in history. And given that the "forty two months", "seven years", and "time and times and half a time" are the same time periods of both Daniel and the Revelation -also Maccabees- any of is likely to occur again at any point in history.

 

[keras]

If it were to be a Jewish temple where that took place, why would the rest of the world care one way or the other about it? Though I don't know if your latter opinion is correct, it at least sounds more reasonable than the former to me.

The new Temple will be dedicated to the Glory of God and His Shekinah glory will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-27
This is logical and scriptural, because why otherwise would the AC sitting in the Temple be a desecration?

What you and many don't seem to know about or see from the many prophesies, is the Jewish State of Israel will be gone after the Lord has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land, as many prophesies tell us. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

 

[DavidPT]

The new Temple will be dedicated to the Glory of God and His Shekinah glory will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-27
This is logical and scriptural, because why otherwise would the AC sitting in the Temple be a desecration?

What you and many don't seem to know about or see from the many prophesies, is the Jewish State of Israel will be gone after the Lord has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land, as many prophesies tell us. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

If one uses the 70th week as a pattern, then takes that to involve a literal temple in the future. This is what one ends up with---animal sacrificing has resumed, apparently at the beginning of this 70th week, where it is then put to a stop altogether some 3.5 years later by the AC.

I totally agree the 70th week is in the end of this age. But surely none of it can be meaning in the literal sense though, where it will involve a literal temple in Jerusalem, with a literal person sitting in it, where, in the middle of the 7 years this same one sitting in it puts an end to animal sacrificing yet again, even though 2000 years ago, by Christ first dying then resurrecting, then the temple in Jerusalem getting utterly destroyed in 70 AD, these things together already putting an end to animal sacrificing in a temple 2000 years ago. There is no logic to animal sacrificing resuming then 3.5 years later being put to a stop yet again. If that was true wouldn't the AC be being doing God a favor since God wouldn't be desiring for animal sacrificing to be resuming in the first place?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I’ve put together a chart of symbols from Revelation chapter 12 to17. (would like to do the whole book but got puffed out)

One of the things that intrigues us is how Revelation, although symbolic, also manifests sometimes as literal. Anyway, here is the chart. Please pick out the symbol that interests you and discuss.

View attachment 270433

Excellent, once again!!!!

 

[sovereigngrace]

A future day is coming when a shocking event will re-occur centered on an 'antichrist', and around a blasphemous object standing with him in the temple. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Mark 13:14, Daniel 11:36) Whether this is a Jewish temple or a 'politically correct' world religion is a matter of opinion. I personally think the latter, tho we are all guessing when it come to details aren't we?

However, 4 things can be deduced because the abomination has already happened before. (168 BC, 70 AD) Hence a future completion of it will be of the same nature - a final fulfillment in the likeness of previous precursors fulfillments.

• Firstly, the abomination has something to do with the place where the temple once stood.
  
  
• Secondly, it will involve an alternative method of atonement to the blood of Christ.
  
  
• Thirdly, it will culminate in a man claiming to be God and standing where he ought not be.
  
  
• Fourthly, it will erupt into severe tribulation which, except for divine intervention, would destroy mankind.

Could it not be the flesh being allowed to operate among the people of God (the Church) prior to Christ's return?

 

[Christian Gedge]

Could it not be the flesh being allowed to operate among the people of God (the Church) prior to Christ's return?

A reasonable possibility if all we had was the book of Revelation. But we also have precursors from former days, and non-symbolic scriptures such as 2 Thess 2:4. Also, the abominations in earlier times had an uncanny habit of repeating in the same place.

1. Antiochus Epiphenes swine flesh (168 BC)
2. The defiant mending of the curtain (30 AD)
   
3. The defilement by Roman soldiers (70 AD)
4. The erection of Dome of the Rock (692 AD)

So, this particular prophecy seems to be unfolding gradually, and this is why I think something will happen there again. I doubt that the Zionist Jews will get their rebuilt animal-sacrificing temple. What I think will happen (only thinking ) will be some kind of 'world religion' where Jerusalem is chosen to build a blasphemous 'new age' temple. I think they will promote it as a final solution for the ongoing strife in the world between the world religions.