Swedenborg

[nightflight]

I don't disagree entirely, but if hell is gruesome, this is hardly a POV that Swedenborg introduced. In fact, his view of it (that you correctly described but only in passing) is much less horrific, I think it's safe to say, when compared to what the Catholic and Protestant churches of his day were preaching.

To Swedenborg, those in hell go there because they want to be there and would not want to be in heaven. They are not "sentenced" to hell, and the nature of hell (to Swedenborg) is not one of fiery torture, etc. The reason it's not pleasant is because of the character of the inhabitants themselves. They are cheaters, haters, and so on and inflict themselves on other souls like themselves.

Some followers of Swedenborgism have said that those in hell are happy. Have you ever seen the movie What Dreams May Come?

 

[Albion]

Some followers of Swedenborgism have said that those in hell are happy. Have you ever seen the movie What Dreams May Come?

I have not seen that movie, although I suppose I should, considering how many people have commented on it to me. I am somewhat surprised, though, to have any follower of Swedenborg say that those in hell are happy to be there.

I don't think Swedenborg took that view, and I wonder if there's a little misunderstanding somewhere along the way, thinking that because the evil people wouldn't be happy to be in heaven and that they prefer instead to be where the cruelness and cheating, etc. that they have pursued in life continues on with other people of the same sort means that this makes them happy. It's what they know, and they're "at home with it," but I don't think Swedenborg maintained that they were anything like "happy."

 

[Noxot]

they are as happy as they can be just the same as the people in the world in whatever conditions that they are in are. many Christians have said hell is like such and that is a much better alternative than God tossing people into hell due to a just punishment of a holy God or of him deleting them and it gives the souls freedom which is why universal salvation is something that can only happen when people are all willing for it to happen and so it is something based in the faith, hope, and love in the kingdom of heaven.

so that is why some people reject universal salvation, because it it God forcing his will on everyone, which is not love. of course some reject universal salvation because they unconsciously believe God is evil and that he will make everyone suffer who does not confess a few magical words or some other silly, unrealistic, and naive notion of a just, loving, and good God.

the truth is that many people do take delight in evil and don't like or don't understand that goodness is better. so those people might fear goodness because they might suffer when they do see how much better goodness is and they might not be able to tolerate seeing how they look in comparison to it because it might be very tormenting to them. they also might be insane and not at all see things how they are and so they would react to what is good in an irrational way because evil is irrational.

if God in some sense has no power over our own perceptions and desires then that would make sense. God seems to only be able to work with what a person is + what others are but can't take away a persons freedom at the same time, which would describe a lot of why religions and the world in general are how they are. and it means that each of our freedom is a responsibility that we must take up. we must be truly born from above, not only magically affirm it in a creed or confession.

 

[Albion]

they are as happy as they can be just the same as the people in the world in whatever conditions that they are in are.

Now wait a minute. IF they are, by definition, cruel, selfish, lovers of evil, etc., how can they be fulfilled "just the same" as those who are in heaven? They cannot be because of the nature of their character--which is what Swedenborg pointed to.

 

[Noxot]

Now wait a minute. IF they are, by definition, cruel, selfish, lovers of evil, etc., how can they be fulfilled "just the same" as those who are in heaven? They cannot be because of the nature of their character--which is what Swedenborg pointed to.

have you never taken delight in evil pleasures? I have and it was a kind of happy though not the same as Gods love. they are not fulfilled the same as those in heaven. if they were then they would not be what they are.

 

[Noxot]

so yeah i dunno who was saying "just the same" I think swedenborg said something like "as much as they can be". a dead body is far different from a living one.

here are 2 videos from the swedenborg foundation that explains part of it:

 

[Albion]

have you never taken delight in evil pleasures? I have and it was a kind of happy though not the same as Gods love..

There you go! That explains quite well why it's wrong to say that the experiences of those in hell are "just the same" as what's experienced in heaven.

 

[Fizzywig]

Pure land requires being washed by the blood of Christ.

Hi, that is the subject of dialogue - where human beings seek to understand the meaning of words as used within different Faiths, and do not just throw them at each other.

Maybe we could both learn from this?

Thanks

 

[Chesterton]

What in the sig bothers you? This was written to show the reasoning of some protestants.

It's just that I don't understand it, and I've been having trouble understanding things in this particular forum lately. Maybe I'm just getting old.

 

[Chesterton]

have you never taken delight in evil pleasures? I have and it was a kind of happy though not the same as Gods love. they are not fulfilled the same as those in heaven. if they were then they would not be what they are.

Another thing about the evil pleasures is you tend to sort of build up a kind of immunity to them and need more and more to get the pleasure. You see it with greed for money, lust for sex, drinking and drugs, etc. And that can happen in our short time on earth. Imagine that played out in eternity and it would be hellish desiring such pleasures as they become more and more impossible to obtain.

 

[Noxot]

yeah having infinite desires can only be fulfilled by infinite love.

 

[-57]

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

After the resurrection there will be two judgements....the White Throne for the non-believers and the Judgement (bema) seat of Christ for the believers.

 

[-57]

Hi, that is the subject of dialogue - where human beings seek to understand the meaning of words as used within different Faiths, and do not just throw them at each other.

Maybe we could both learn from this?

Thanks

I think the problem is, is you're trying to fit the Word of God into a humanist view...and that can't be done.

 

[Fizzywig]

I think the problem is, is you're trying to fit the Word of God into a humanist view...and that can't be done.

No, as I have explained before, I am not a "Humanist" as such. I chose that label simply because first and foremost I am a human being, as we all are.

I am a human being who understands life through Pure Land Buddhist eyes.

( Just to add, through those eyes, and converting Pure Land words into Christian terminology, the Word is not the text of the Bible.)

 

[-57]

so yeah i dunno who was saying "just the same" I think swedenborg said something like "as much as they can be". a dead body is far different from a living one.

here are 2 videos from the swedenborg foundation that explains part of it:

I watched the second video and it's the farthest thing from christianity.

We may have been designed by God...made in His image...but mankind is in a fallen state.
Until we are regenerated (born again) the Spirit of God is not in us. That's basic bible 101.

 

[-57]

No, as I have explained before, I am not a "Humanist" as such. I chose that label simply because first and foremost I am a human being, as we all are.

I am a human being who understands life through Pure Land Buddhist eyes.

( Just to add, through those eyes, and converting Pure Land words into Christian terminology, the Word is not the text of the Bible.)

One thing I do know is that what you are mentioning isn't what the bible speaks of.
You may hold claims to be one who understands life through Pure Land Buddhist eyes...but you don't undertand salvation.

 

[EmSw]

After the resurrection there will be two judgements....the White Throne for the non-believers and the Judgement (bema) seat of Christ for the believers.

So which judgment is speaking of salvation and life?

How does one neglect Jesus' words about doing good to attain to the resurrection to life? Jesus said all in the grave will rise to one or the other.

 

[Noxot]

I watched the second video and it's the farthest thing from christianity.

We may have been designed by God...made in His image...but mankind is in a fallen state.
Until we are regenerated (born again) the Spirit of God is not in us. That's basic bible 101.

to be regenerated is to be born from above which means for our spirits to be alive in Christ rather than our lower natures leading us along. we must be the virgin Mary and give birth to Christ.

Song 8:4 (ESV2011)
I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, that you not stir up or awaken love until it pleases.

 

[Fizzywig]

One thing I do know is that what you are mentioning isn't what the bible speaks of.
You may hold claims to be one who understands life through Pure Land Buddhist eyes...but you don't undertand salvation.

My only understanding is that salvation is pure gift; realised, not attained; given, not earned.

If your own understanding is different, then we shall have to agree to disagree.

Thank you.

 

[tdidymas]

When does a cult become an orthodoxy? Is it by democratic vote? Truth by numbers?

You mean when is someone an apostate as opposed to orthodox? There has to be a consensus about what is essentially Christian, since there is a New Testament standard of what is and isn't. Ultimately, God will judge between the sheep and the goats. I'm simply judging what people say, whether it be Biblical or not, whether it be orthodox or cultlike in nature. John wrote "test every spirit," and that's what I'm doing here.
TD