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Superiority Complex.

Dragons87

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How recent of an invention is it?

Also, the Zohar does concur with this explanation. It does at some point equate the suffering servant to the messiah, but also to Moses and Elijah. It is surprising you don't mention the times it doesn't say it is the messiah, but zero in on the few times it does. More often than not is is corporate Israel.

What sources are you quoting when you say 1st century rabbis said it was about the messiah? Can I see them?

I have noticed, b&wpac4, that many a time when someone mentions "servant" in Isaiah you insist that it means "Israel" as a whole. I think it is quite clear from the pages of previous posts that "servant" can mean a variety of things, and even different things even though they might be verses apart. So neither the Jewish nor the Christian interpretations are wrong; they are just different.
 
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b&wpac4

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I have noticed, b&wpac4, that many a time when someone mentions "servant" in Isaiah you insist that it means "Israel" as a whole. I think it is quite clear from the pages of previous posts that "servant" can mean a variety of things, and even different things even though they might be verses apart. So neither the Jewish nor the Christian interpretations are wrong; they are just different.

I only look at what Isaiah says. He never identifies the servant as anything but Israel. Everything else is an interpretation.
 
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b&wpac4

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If you say so. I can agree to disagree. :)

That's fine.

When I am looking for passages about the messiah, I look for some key phrases such as "son of David" or even just David or a passages talking about the king "in those days".

Any other times people tell me it is speaking of the messiah, I tend to have trouble seeing it.
 
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b&wpac4

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Instead of refering and reading other peoples writings have you ever thought about thinking things out for yourselves?
why are you all so concerned with how other people thought about things? what do you think about things?
just asking.

Because when I go to the doctor, I don't try to figure it out on my own, I trust that their education and experience will lead them to the correct conclusion even if my own little research I do on my conditions disagree with the diagnosis.

When I want to learn about space, I don't just stare at space, I go to the experts who have studied and who know the work of previous generations of scientists.

All of us, to some extent, trust the word of authorities. So, I view Isaiah as an authority on matters that involve my faith, so I will see what he says in order to make a determination.
 
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Dragons87

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That's fine.

When I am looking for passages about the messiah, I look for some key phrases such as "son of David" or even just David or a passages talking about the king "in those days".

Any other times people tell me it is speaking of the messiah, I tend to have trouble seeing it.

Fair enough.
 
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b&wpac4

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Fair enough.

I really want to thank both you and Josiah for the conversation. I really really enjoy seeing the multiple points of view, even if I disagree with them, because they force me to go and evaluate the claims and see how my views stand up to what is there. If I ever give the impression that I don't think Christians have a valid understanding, I am sorry for that. I just argue pretty hard because, well, it's what I do. I only get really upset when I am told that my view is not logical.
 
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Josiah14

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That's fine.

When I am looking for passages about the messiah, I look for some key phrases such as "son of David" or even just David or a passages talking about the king "in those days".

Any other times people tell me it is speaking of the messiah, I tend to have trouble seeing it.


You will never see it without the aid of God.

Besides, the Bible is not a proof-text for Christianity, and it was never meant to be. The New Testament Scriptures didn't even exist in the very early days of the Church, and a canonized New Testament didn't exist until the 4th century. The NT Scriptures were written from the Church's Tradition, just as the Old Testament Scriptures were written from the Jewish Tradition, over time, as God was revealed to the Jewish people. It would be silly to try and reverse the process, trying to prove all of the Tradition through the Scriptures. The ultimate proof of Christ's Sonship is His resurrection, so, unless you are resurrected with Christ in some way in the nous, you will never accept Christianity. Historical evidence bears testimony to the fact that Jesus existed and was crucified. The question becomes, do you believe what His Apostles wrote about Him, do you believe the things that those who saw Him in the flesh and believed were martyred for, do you believe Christ was resurrected, or are all these people just lunatics? Bear in mind, of the 12 Apostles (including not Judas Iscariot, but Matthias, who replace him) 11 were martyred while still confessing Christ.

There is testimony today of the resurrection, even in the physical world. Every year, Holy Fire ignites the Jerusalem Patriarch's candle on Christian Pascha, and, unlike white phosphorus, the flame does not burn flesh or hair. Every year, a cloud of light descends on Mount Tabor during the feast of the Transfiguration, and every year the Jordan River flows backwards during the feast of Theophany, when Christians celebrate Christ's baptism.

You may deny and accept whichever interpretations of the Scriptures you like, but the physical creation bears testimony only to one of these interpretations, from what I haev seen.
 
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Josiah14

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I really want to thank both you and Josiah for the conversation. I really really enjoy seeing the multiple points of view, even if I disagree with them, because they force me to go and evaluate the claims and see how my views stand up to what is there. If I ever give the impression that I don't think Christians have a valid understanding, I am sorry for that. I just argue pretty hard because, well, it's what I do. I only get really upset when I am told that my view is not logical.


Right on. I'm glad we can have a civil exchange without people taking offense or chewing each other out.

I took no offense to anything said. As a Jew, I wouldn't expect you to just agree with me. If you did, I'd get suspicious.

I can come on pretty hard, too, so, I also hope that nobody takes offense at my posts. I present the world as I see it, and I can be rather blunt about it at times, but, I do not say things in order to be offensive or bigoted.
 
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b&wpac4

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Bear in mind, of the 12 Apostles (including not Judas Iscariot, but Matthias, who replace him) 11 were martyred while still confessing Christ.
I've looked into the historical evidence for this, and you're left with Church tradition. I understand that and would not say it is invalid for you, I simply would like to see people other than the Church fathers report this.
There is testimony today of the resurrection, even in the physical world. Every year, Holy Fire ignites the Jerusalem Patriarch's candle on Christian Pascha, and, unlike white phosphorus, the flame does not burn flesh or hair. Every year, a cloud of light descends on Mount Tabor during the feast of the Transfiguration, and every year the Jordan River flows backwards during the feast of Theophany, when Christians celebrate Christ's baptism.

You may deny and accept whichever interpretations of the Scriptures you like, but the physical creation bears testimony only to one of these interpretations.

I will have to look into these events. This is the first time they have been brought to my attention.
 
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Josiah14

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I've looked into the historical evidence for this, and you're left with Church tradition. I understand that and would not say it is invalid for you, I simply would like to see people other than the Church fathers report this.


I will have to look into these events. This is the first time they have been brought to my attention.


Theres videos on YouTube of people putting their beards and hands directly in the Holy Fire. I can tell you from experience, normal fire burns human hair practically instantly (theres videos of people burning their beard on YouTube, also, if you dont believe me) lol.

As for the events at the Jordan River and Mt. Tabor, it was a foreign news program that made me aware of this. I don't know if the video is online or not, but I did some extra research at the time and it looked legitimate based on what I found.

Take your time on your research, here. If you find evidence to the against these miracles, please let me know so I can have my conclusions about these things tested.
 
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Josiah14

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For anyone curious who is able to make it (probably nobody), the Orthodox Feast of the Transfiguration happens August 19th. If you really wanted, you could go to Mt. Tabor and see for yourself.
 
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b&wpac4

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For anyone curious who is able to make it (probably nobody), the Orthodox Feast of the Transfiguration happens August 19th. If you really wanted, you could go to Mt. Tabor and see for yourself.

You do, of course, realize that miracles would not, in their own right, convince me of anything? It would still have to line up with God's word for me to believe. I remain skeptical of the miracles you speak of, mostly because I have now read some people who claim they can reproduce these events. I have to look closer, and I will.

The problem, as I see it, is most people tell me that I have to accept Jesus to see. But that sets up a big problem, in my eyes.

Once you make Jesus the single most important element in your religious beliefs, I think it becomes quite easy to see him everywhere. In fact, it becomes a great motivator to find him everywhere, because if he were not in the Jewish scriptures, there would be a great contradiction.

So, basically, anybody who tells me I have to "take the plunge" before I understand automatically fails. This is how I was made, this is how God has made me. I am a skeptic by nature. I spent a long time as an atheist because I lacked proof, and it was only by finding proof that convinced me that I was able to believe in God.

Also, let me explain something to everybody. I did pray for understanding, and I feel that I was led down the path I am on specifically. This is where I am supposed to be, and I am utterly convinced of that. Never assume that the person you are telling to ask God to guide them has not already done so. The big difference is that I don't think you are being mislead, I think you may indeed be on the path God intends for you to be on.
 
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Josiah14

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You do, of course, realize that miracles would not, in their own right, convince me of anything? It would still have to line up with God's word for me to believe. I remain skeptical of the miracles you speak of, mostly because I have now read some people who claim they can reproduce these events. I have to look closer, and I will.

The problem, as I see it, is most people tell me that I have to accept Jesus to see. But that sets up a big problem, in my eyes.

Once you make Jesus the single most important element in your religious beliefs, I think it becomes quite easy to see him everywhere. In fact, it becomes a great motivator to find him everywhere, because if he were not in the Jewish scriptures, there would be a great contradiction.

So, basically, anybody who tells me I have to "take the plunge" before I understand automatically fails. This is how I was made, this is how God has made me. I am a skeptic by nature. I spent a long time as an atheist because I lacked proof, and it was only by finding proof that convinced me that I was able to believe in God.

Also, let me explain something to everybody. I did pray for understanding, and I feel that I was led down the path I am on specifically. This is where I am supposed to be, and I am utterly convinced of that. Never assume that the person you are telling to ask God to guide them has not already done so. The big difference is that I don't think you are being mislead, I think you may indeed be on the path God intends for you to be on.


I dont expect any miracles to convince you. I dont really expect anything, honestly.

as for the faith plunge, in Christianity, the faith comes from recognizing Christ as the one who releases you from sin. As long as you believe you are a pretty good person and pretty ok, it is very hard to find Christ. As we say, Christ came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

As I have said before, the best evidence for Christianity is the 12 Traditions. Many who start in the 12-step programs end up in a christian church because, for them, their experience is that of the man by the pool of Bethesda. He was paralyzed and could not get to the water to be healed, so Christ came and healed him. However, Christ did not tell the man he was Jesus, the Christ, until later. This is what happened to me. Christ came, healed me (and is still healing me), and now I relay what I know. I do not testify in order to convert you or anyone, but, rather, in order to testify about my own experience, that the glory of Christ might be exposed and brought to light for people to do with as they choose.

You may be right, that God lead you to Judaism, but that does not mean it is your final destination. God will lead you your entire life, and as long as you are willing to listen to Him, you will be fine.

For me, I know Orthodox Christianity is it because, well, there is nowhere else to go after this. Orthodoxy is the fulfillment of Judaism, it is the fulness of the shadow of the church that Western christianity is, and it is truer and deeper to the human soul than any other religion I've ever come across. In fact, it appears to me that every belief system has preserved in it some remant of Christ which would point one to Orthodoxy, such that it would seem that Christ has prepared all the world for the chance to accept Him (indeed, He has sown everywhere, that the Gospel could be received by any who is willing to hear). It was, actually, protestantism that lead me to Orthodoxy.
 
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b&wpac4

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as for the faith plunge, in Christianity, the faith comes from recognizing Christ as the one who releases you from sin. As long as you believe you are a pretty good person and pretty ok, it is very hard to find Christ. As we say, Christ came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

But, that's not what I believe. That's not even the common Jewish belief. We do believe we sin, we do believe that we need to repent and through recognizing this we are able to strive to sin less.

I sin so I turn back to God, as God's word tells me to do, and I am confident that God will forgive me because He said so. As I go on, I make the same mistake less, and learn to overcome that mistake. I mean, at some point I get a little frustrated having to ask for the same sin to be forgiven, so I work to make it so that I do not continue to make that mistake.
 
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razeontherock

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There is testimony today of the resurrection, even in the physical world. Every year, Holy Fire ignites the Jerusalem Patriarch's candle on Christian Pascha, and, unlike white phosphorus, the flame does not burn flesh or hair. Every year, a cloud of light descends on Mount Tabor during the feast of the Transfiguration, and every year the Jordan River flows backwards during the feast of Theophany, when Christians celebrate Christ's baptism.

Whoa! What's Pascha?
 
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Josiah14

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But, that's not what I believe. That's not even the common Jewish belief. We do believe we sin, we do believe that we need to repent and through recognizing this we are able to strive to sin less.

I sin so I turn back to God, as God's word tells me to do, and I am confident that God will forgive me because He said so. As I go on, I make the same mistake less, and learn to overcome that mistake. I mean, at some point I get a little frustrated having to ask for the same sin to be forgiven, so I work to make it so that I do not continue to make that mistake.


You do not come to this conclusion by reasoning. It takes a profound recognition of your own inability to conquer sin on your own to begin to believe in this way. Until life experience grants you the humility to see that it was never apart from God's help that you ever did any good thing, Christianity will remain out of your reach.

My experience is that I tried so hard to overcome my sin, and what actually happened was I became more sinful. I started making progress when I began to 'let go and let God'. That is, I gave up, said I couldn't do it, and let God take on the burden of my character defects. This isnt a one time thing, but I have to do this every day, all the time. Only then did I begin to make progress against my passions. Eventually, one comes to realize that the character of this God who frees men from their sinful tendancies is that of the Christian God, and no other, and it could not be any other way.
 
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Livindesert

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Whoa! What's Pascha?

It is the name for Easter in the Orthodox churches. There was a big deal about it because some in the early church wanted the holy days the same but different cities had differing traditions on Easter/Pascha.
 
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b&wpac4

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You do not come to this conclusion by reasoning. It takes a profound recognition of your own inability to conquer sin on your own to begin to believe in this way. Until life experience grants you the humility to see that it was never apart from God's help that you ever did any good thing, Christianity will remain out of your reach.

Well, again, I go with what God has said in God's word. He says, directly, that you can conquer sin and that the things He commands are not out of reach.

I understand that runs contrary to Christian views, but it is in the Bible.
 
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