Superiority Complex.

[Josiah14]

Haha! I think I'm getting to understand how you feel! It's kind of like saying to Catholics and Orthodox: "No, tradition is not necessary to achieve salvation, nor the veneration of saints."

God is not the God of the dead, but the living. The Saints are a part of our Church here and now just as much as my friend standing beside me in Church is. Only difference is they have completed their physical earthly life and now stand before the throne of God and pray for the salvation of the world. Even if you don't NEED the Saints for salvation, why would you not ask for their prayers and intercessions?

As far as Tradition goes, the disparity of doctrines and beliefs which has result in such mass uncertainty and confusion and disunity among the protestants is itself a testimony against anti-Traditionalism. Problem is, we Orthodox tend to be judged based upon a lot of the Roman Patriarchate's failings. I can understand leaving the Catholic Church, as I lost count of how many times they have changed their Tradition, and how often the new Tradition stands in opposition to the Christian worldview to which the Scriptures testify, and against the stances of previous Popes, whom the Catholics would deem as doctrinally 'infallible'. Even today, Pope Leo III's defence against the filioque anathematizes the modern Catholic Church, and the modern Catholic Church's stances on many doctrines anathematize the Catholic Churches of earlier centuries. However, imposing these faults on the Orthodox just isnt fair unless you have done your research. There is a reason the 4 Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates told Rome to take a hike in 1054.

 

[Josiah14]

I'm aware that my above post packs a punch. I hope this does not upset anyone too much.

 

[Dragons87]

I find the Catholic vs. Orthodox debate very interesting. The Catholic/Orthodox vs Protestant debate is far far less interesting.

Are you sure that one man's battle against a omnipotent but corrupt institution is far less interesting than the trivial dispute over one single Latin word? Are you sure????

T'is a joke. Okay? Laugh.

God is not the God of the dead, but the living. The Saints are a part of our Church here and now just as much as my friend standing beside me in Church is. Only difference is they have completed their physical earthly life and now stand before the throne of God and pray for the salvation of the world. Even if you don't NEED the Saints for salvation, why would you not ask for their prayers and intercessions?

But why would I?

As far as Tradition goes, the disparity of doctrines and beliefs which has result in such mass uncertainty and confusion and disunity among the protestants is itself a testimony against anti-Traditionalism. Problem is, we Orthodox tend to be judged based upon a lot of the Roman Patriarchate's failings. I can understand leaving the Catholic Church, as I lost count of how many times they have changed their Tradition, and how often the new Tradition stands in opposition to the Christian worldview to which the Scriptures testify, and against the stances of previous Popes, whom the Catholics would deem as doctrinally 'infallible'. Even today, Pope Leo III's defence against the filioque anathematizes the modern Catholic Church, and the modern Catholic Church's stances on many doctrines anathematize the Catholic Churches of earlier centuries. However, imposing these faults on the Orthodox just isnt fair unless you have done your research. There is a reason the 4 Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates told Rome to take a hike in 1054.

I oppose nothing in the Catholic or Orthodox doctrines; unlike some Protestants I don't see it as my battle.

My point is that for every viewpoint along the "Abrahamic continuum" (I made that up), someone further down the line is going to look back and tell people standing behind them they are missing something. Christians will tell Jews they are missing Jesus. The Orthodox and Catholics will tell Protestants they are missing certain doctrines and traditions. The Catholics will tell the Orthodox that they are missing one single word in their creed. The Muslims will tell Jews and Christians they are missing the Koran. The Baha'i will tell everyone before them they are missing Baha'i's prophet. And it goes on.

I merely say that as a Protestant standing behind Catholics and Orthodox that I can turn around and say to the Jew, "I know how you feel."

 

[b&wpac4]

Are you sure that one man's battle against a omnipotent but corrupt institution is far less interesting than the trivial dispute over one single Latin word? Are you sure????

T'is a joke. Okay? Laugh.

If you mean Luther...
I hate Luther.

 

[Dragons87]

If you mean Luther...
I hate Luther.

If his story comes out in a film or a hit TV series I will like him.

 

[b&wpac4]

If his story comes out in a film or a hit TV series I will like him.

I'm not sure if anything could come out that would ever allow me to like Martin Luther.

 

[Catherineanne]

I'm not sure if anything could come out that would ever allow me to like Martin Luther.

I agree there is not anything particularly endearing about him. Not that I have ever found, anyway.

The best I can say is that he was a product of his own uncertainty, and that in the quest for his own inner peace he did not much care what harm he caused to anyone outside himself. So you can imagine, if I tried to find the worst I could say, it would not be good.

Not really a very nice person, I think. And his language in some of his works is really, really vile. However, so is the language used by St Thomas More, so perhaps that was just part of the age they lived in; they both thought that you can destroy opposition by burying it in invective. Neither succeeded.

 

[Catherineanne]

It's kind of like saying to Catholics and Orthodox: "No, tradition is not necessary to achieve salvation, nor the veneration of saints."

Why exactly? As far as I am aware, neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe that tradition effects salvation; that comment makes no theological sense. Salvation is always by Grace, for apostolics and non apostolics, and Grace is always an act of God, not of man.

What makes you think they/we think as you suggest?

 

[b&wpac4]

Not really a very nice person, I think. And his language in some of his works is really, really vile.

and that's putting it nicely.

 

[Dragons87]

Why exactly? As far as I am aware, neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe that tradition effects salvation; that comment makes no theological sense. Salvation is always by Grace, for apostolics and non apostolics, and Grace is always an act of God, not of man.

What makes you think they/we think as you suggest?

I don't want to make judgments on any Catholic and/or Orthodox doctrines, nor do I want to start any sort of debate on the matter (even if I wanted to, this is not the place to do it).

I raised the point only to say that I empathise with b&w facing Christian comments that "Jews need Jesus". That's all.

 

[Catherineanne]

and that's putting it nicely.

Indeed so. If I quoted his or St Thomas More's worst language here, I would certainly get an infraction of some kind.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Personally, I prefer Luther to Calvin, even though Luther's anti-judaic ramblings are indeed quite odious.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't want to make judgments on any Catholic and/or Orthodox doctrines, nor do I want to start any sort of debate on the matter (even if I wanted to, this is not the place to do it).

I raised the point only to say that I empathise with b&w facing Christian comments that "Jews need Jesus". That's all.

Fair enough, but perhaps use actual examples next time, rather than commenting on what nobody believes, as if we do.

Feel free to talk about, and even deride if you choose, devotion to the BVM or Theotokos, veneration of the Blessed Sacrament, emphasis on the Eucharist or the veneration of the Blessed Saints. But not that Tradition effects salvation, because it doesn't. Never did, never will.

 

[b&wpac4]

Personally, I prefer Luther to Calvin, even though Luther's anti-judaic ramblings are indeed quite odious.

Sadly, I really have trouble with all of the reformers.

 

[Catherineanne]

Sadly, I really have trouble with all of the reformers.

Luddite.

 

[b&wpac4]

Luddite.

It's just that in some point in almost all of the reformer's works, you find some really terrible remarks against the Jews.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It's just that in some point in almost all of the reformer's works, you find some really terrible remarks against the Jews.

The same could be said about the Catholics they rebelled against.

Christianity as a whole was quite adamantly anti-Judaic throughout most of its history; that only changed pretty recently - and given that the Pope recently re-introduced a prayer imploring God to "save" the Jews from their grievous "errors", I'm not even sure that it's a permanent state.

 

[b&wpac4]

The same could be said about the Catholics they rebelled against.

Never claimed I gave them a free pass.

The Papal Bull that restricted Jews to ghettos comes to mind.

 

[Dragons87]

Fair enough, but perhaps use actual examples next time, rather than commenting on what nobody believes, as if we do.

I don't think you can account for all the comments that all Catholics have made to me and/or other Protestants regarding the status of my or their salvation, regardless of what your or the official position is.

I said I didn't want to get into it; I didn't say verbal or textual expressions of such beliefs, whether you hold them or not, were never made.

Feel free to talk about, and even deride if you choose, devotion to the BVM or Theotokos, veneration of the Blessed Sacrament, emphasis on the Eucharist or the veneration of the Blessed Saints. But not that Tradition effects salvation, because it doesn't. Never did, never will.

I'm glad you endorse that position. But as the rules say, this is not the right place to discuss this, and I'm not interested in discussing it anyway.

 

[Catherineanne]

It's just that in some point in almost all of the reformer's works, you find some really terrible remarks against the Jews.

This is one point where St Thomas More does score well. In all his writing, and all his diatribes, he does not anywhere show any kind of anti semitism.

In this, he was very unusual for his day. Although a humanist, and in favour of some reform, he is scathing about Luther. But he does not write or speak against the Jews.

I am not sure about Erasmus. He is usually a voice of reason, and certainly more temperate than More. I don't know what he said about the Jews, though.