Sunday Worship/Mark of the Beast

[woobadooba]

What happened in Eden? Most people forget that Genesis was not written at the time the Creation occurred.

I don't know of anyone who ever believed that it was written at the time of creation.

It was written much closer to the Exodus.

And so your point is?

That aside we have taken a simple statement of fact and turned it into a doctrine. When He was finished creating God stopped. What more can you do after you have finished the work you have to do? God did not rest. He rested from His work. It was all done. We quote Ex. 20:8-10 but need to take a look at

What you are failing to see here is that in Ex. 20:11 the Lord makes it clear that the purpose of the Sabbath wasn't just because of The Jews Exodus, rather it is brought back to the act of creation thus, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day."

hence, we can conclude that the Sabbath existed even at the time in which Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden!

The Sabbath was made for man to meet man's needs.

Yes, Jesus did say, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mk. 2:27

By the way, the word 'man' so as it is used here in the original denotes the idea of mankind/humanity. Hence, it isn't specific in that it is referring to a particluar type of man, such as a Jew, but general in that it is referring to all men, women, and children alike!

The only person who had worked for six days when the first seventh day arrived was God. To attempt to place the Sabbath in Eden is to say that the Sabbath was made for God.

But in a sense the Sabbath was made for God, that is why elsewhere in the Bible He says, "My Sabbath"

Yet, it was made for man too. It was made for God to commemorate the work that He had done in creating the heavens and the earth, and it was made for man to honor such a commemoration, to 'remember' God!

 

[payattention]

His theology for giving it may apply, but He certainly didn't say that until later, so they would not have necessarily viewed it that way.

Nor have you shown that Adam would have no use for a day with God before the fall. Why wouldn't he?

I don't understand your reasoning on the relevance of Jesus' theology. As to the fact that God told Adam to keep the garden. It was only after sin entered that work became tedious. Work has always been an aspect of worship. Adam was not worn out by his work in the garden nor did his work separate him from his creator. In fact, they met for a chat everyday. This is quite unlike us who labor in the devil's prison. We do need the Sabbath both for practical reasons and to remind us of our deliverance from sin (cf Heb. 4).

 

[payattention]

Woobadooba, all I can say is that it is much more efficient to cut the cloth to fit the man than to try to make the man fit into a suit already made. Long ago I decided to stop wresting the Bible to make it fit my doctrines, especially when those doctrines do not add anything to the gospel.

 

[woobadooba]

I don't understand your reasoning on the relevance of Jesus' theology. As to the fact that God told Adam to keep the garden. It was only after sin entered that work became tedious. Work has always been an aspect of worship. Adam was not worn out by his work in the garden nor did his work separate him from his creator. In fact, they met for a chat everyday. This is quite unlike us who labor in the devil's prison. We do need the Sabbath both for practical reasons and to remind us of our deliverance from sin (cf Heb. 4).

In post 92 I addressed this issue. The purpose of the sabbath isn't to give man rest from his toil, but to commemorate what God did in creation, and to give man the opportunity to remember what God did, thus honoring such a commemoration.

It's not so much about rest from work as it is about worship of God!

 

[payattention]

Moreover, there is silence EXCEPT for the account in the garden. Why would that not count? Because you don't think it really happened?

Because when Moses wrote Genesis the Sabbath was already being kept. He would have no reason for not mentioning it in Gen. 2 if it had been set aside as a Sabbath.

 

[payattention]

In post 92 I addressed this issue. The purpose of the sabbath isn't to give man rest from his toil, but to commemorate what God did in creation, and to give man the opportunity to remember what God did, thus honoring such a commemoration.

It's not so much about rest from work as it is about worship of God!

Why would Adam need to commemorate the creation? Was he likely to forget? Every argument you proffer points to a sin-cursed environment.

 

[woobadooba]

Woobadooba, all I can say is that it is much more efficient to cut the cloth to fit the man than to try to make the man fit into a suit already made. Long ago I decided to stop wresting the Bible to make it fit my doctrines, especially when those doctrines do not add anything to the gospel.

Yes, but for those of us who have paid thousands of dollars and spent years in college learning this stuff from highly trained theologians, we know better.

It's called Exegesis, and I know it well.

 

[payattention]

Yes, but for those of us who have paid thousands of dollars and spent years in college learning this stuff from highly trained theologians, we know better.

It's called Exegesis, and I know it well.

For hundreds of years highly trained scientists taught that the earth was the center of the universe. Even the highly trained make errors.

 

[tall73]

I brought up Jesus' theology because I find it odd that you read things back into a text that did not say them to prove a point about that time. God did give it as a blessing, fair enough. But were there not people before then that needed it? Why were they the only ones to that point who would?

Moreover, if the text of the garden account was written so close to the exodus, why would the author feel a need to quote it? It would not be overly authoritative if it was a brand new text. THey might not be familiar with it at all.

Of course, if the same author who wrote Genesis and shared it with them (the traditional view of Moses, which you might or might not accept) was now reminding them of what it said that would make sense. But then, why would He tell them something he knew he read into it, that never happened anyway? Unless of course you are saying that Moses was just doctoring things to make these new commandments more firm. In which case, I don't believe that either. .

EDIT, you seem more or less to confirm that view already. With the modification that Moses wrote it after the exodus, and apparently made up the idea that God did anything in the garden.

If God gave blessed it in the garden...and it says it did...then He surely had a reason for it. Whether you agree with that reason doesn't change that fact in my mind. It is clear that we simply have different ideas of the nature of Scripture, so I doubt that it can be resolved.

EDIT 2, Saying that Moses included anochronistic elements just because it was already being observed is not taking it as it is. It is reading into it.

 

[woobadooba]

Why would Adam need to commemorate the creation? Was he likely to forget? Every argument you proffer points to a sin-cursed environment.

Are we going to get into the semantics game again?

Ok, back at you, why would God tell the Jews to "Remember the Sabbath day", if it had not been forgotten already? Hmmmm.

It would have been better just to say, "Keep the Sabbath Day holy", but the word remember tells us something more.

 

[woobadooba]

For hundreds of years highly trained scientists taught that the earth was the center of the universe. Even the highly trained make errors.

There are basic incontrovertable principles or laws, that can be found in any discipline. In science there are basic laws, such as the law of causality. It is the same in logic, there is the law of non-contradiction. And so in Exegesis there are basic laws that can't be changed, laws upon which all subjects agree upon.

And I am telling you that, I know what those laws are, and you are violatiing them.

You are doing an eisegesis not an exegesis.

 

[tall73]

agreed woobadooba.

It is quite clear that you are not taking ANYTHING in Genesis having to do with the blessing of the day as it is. Instead you are

a. asserting that the overall theology of it being given for man must make determinations about when it was given--that doesn't follow. Especially since man, even sinful man, needed it long before the slaves came out of Egypt.

b. asserting that Moses basically made some things up to back up the commandments given at Sinai. Quite a strange thing to do for a man who then included a commandment about not giving false testimony in the same document he recorded those commandments.

Do you really think that is taking it as it is rather than trying to make it fit?

 

[woobadooba]

agreed woobadooba.

It is quite clear that you are not taking ANYTHING in Genesis having to do with the blessing of the day as it is. Instead you are

a. asserting that the overall theology of it being given for man must make determinations about when it was given--that doesn't follow. Especially since man, even sinful man, needed it long before the slaves came out of Egypt.

b. asserting that Moses basically made some things up to back up the commandments given at Sinai.

Do you really think that is taking it as it is rather than trying to make it fit?

Unfortunately, as I have learned, and I'm sure you have too, it makes no difference how sound your argument is, you can show them how it is clearly supported by text after text after text, and yet, they will reject everything you have to say that doesn't agree with what they determine to be truth.

 

[Cliff2]

I am saying that it was given to them as a gift at the Exodus. We have tried very hard to overlook the fact that the Sabbath is not mentioned until Exodus 16. The Sabbath is a celebration of our deliverance from sin as we enter into God's rest.

It is very obvious that you fail to see that what is recorded in the Bible is fact and not fiction.

Genesis 2



1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

 

[payattention]

Are we going to get into the semantics game again?

Ok, back at you, why would God tell the Jews to "Remember the Sabbath day", if it had not been forgotten already? Hmmmm.

It would have been better just to say, "Keep the Sabbath Day holy", but the word remember tells us something more.

Not if something new is being introduced that is a dramatic change from the past and is liable to be forgotten. I'm sure you have heard of people who went to work only to realize that they had retired, or drove up to the house they moved out of a short while ago.

 

[payattention]

agreed woobadooba.

It is quite clear that you are not taking ANYTHING in Genesis having to do with the blessing of the day as it is. Instead you are

a. asserting that the overall theology of it being given for man must make determinations about when it was given--that doesn't follow. Especially since man, even sinful man, needed it long before the slaves came out of Egypt.

b. asserting that Moses basically made some things up to back up the commandments given at Sinai. Quite a strange thing to do for a man who then included a commandment about not giving false testimony in the same document he recorded those commandments.

Do you really think that is taking it as it is rather than trying to make it fit?

The problem you are having is that Moses wrote both Genesis and Exodus. You can't get around the fact that the Sabbath is first mentioned in Exodus 16. We must be true to the text because it says what we think of God.

 

[payattention]

It is very obvious that you fail to see that what is recorded in the Bible is fact and not fiction.

Genesis 2



1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

There is no Sabbath in that passage; don't try to insert one.

 

[woobadooba]

There is no Sabbath in that passage; don't try to insert one.

Sabbath is translated rest! The word rest is in the passage. Furthermore, God said "Remember the Sabbath day", and then He went on to describe how He created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, and rested on the 7th Ex. 20:11!

Thus Sabbath = rest

And the word rested is no different from rest except in tense.

Three people now have informed you of this, and have given you solid arguments that are founded on scripture. Why do you still reject it?

 

[tall73]

Let's take it a step further. It is clear we won't agree on this part of the question anyway.

So, do you feel the command is binding on everyone SINCE the giving of the commandments?

 

[woobadooba]

Let's take it a step further. It is clear we won't agree on this part of the question anyway.

So, do you feel the command is binding on everyone SINCE the giving of the commandments?

But then this raises a further question...

If the 10 commandments were only given after the exodus from Egypt, what then were those "commandments", "statutes", and "laws" that Abraham obeyed? Gen. 26:5

The answer is quite obvious. And for the simple fact that God began the command thus, "Remember the Sabbath day", this evidences that it existed prior to the exodus, but was some how forgotten, or neglected by God's people.

Hence, it is reasonble to conclude that Abraham kept the Sabbath day holy, and also honored the rest of God's commands!