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Sunday Worship/Mark of the Beast

StormyOne

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menno said:
Something this serious would obviously separate SDA from most other denoms. Do you see yourself as evangelists to other denoms since they are in a grievous error according to your understanding of scripture? I would think this ranks higher than baptism modes and other issues that divide Christendom.

3rd attempt at getting a answer on this one.

Menno... here is my take....(which is embraces more than the traditional interpretation)

I would say that the seal of God is Christ's character within the believer and the mark of the beast (who is a proxy for Satan) is the character of Satan within those who have chosen to reject Christ.....My studies have led me to believe that the seal and the mark are so much more than a day chosen for worship and are the essence of the value system that has been incorporated in the lives of those who are rational enough to make a choice of those two very different value systems.... My studies have led me to the following conclusion. If the seal of God is Christ's character and mindset imprinted in the believer, then the Mark of the Beast must be the character and mindset of the beast imprinted on people or organizations.

So then, are believers in their walk becoming more like Christ? Or are they less like Him? Is the church becoming more like Christ or less like Him?

If they are becoming less like Him, then they are becoming more like the beast. The bible gives us clear answers to what Christ is like.... Matt 5, especially the last part tells us the values of His kingdom... The beast which is really a proxy for Satan hold a completely different set of values.

One example. The bible says that Christ HUMBLED Himself. So one of the characteristics of Christ, His kingdom, and His followers is humility. The opposite of humility is self-glorification. One of the characteristics of Satan, his kingdom, and those who knowingly or unknowingly follow him would be self-glorification, i.e. look at me, look at what I can do, me, me, me.... See the difference? So then if a person never worshipped on any day it would be clear by their life who they were "worshipping," who they were following, who they were loyal to.....

As for your question... yes adventists feel that they are correct in their interpretation and must expose the error in teaching by others....


 
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MrJim

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StormyOne said:
Menno... here is my take....(which is embraces more than the traditional interpretation)

I would say that the seal of God is Christ's character within the believer and the mark of the beast (who is a proxy for Satan) is the character of Satan within those who have chosen to reject Christ.....My studies have led me to believe that the seal and the mark are so much more than a day chosen for worship and are the essence of the value system that has been incorporated in the lives of those who are rational enough to make a choice of those two very different value systems.... My studies have led me to the following conclusion. If the seal of God is Christ's character and mindset imprinted in the believer, then the Mark of the Beast must be the character and mindset of the beast imprinted on people or organizations.

So then, are believers in their walk becoming more like Christ? Or are they less like Him? Is the church becoming more like Christ or less like Him?

If they are becoming less like Him, then they are becoming more like the beast. The bible gives us clear answers to what Christ is like.... Matt 5, especially the last part tells us the values of His kingdom... The beast which is really a proxy for Satan hold a completely different set of values.

One example. The bible says that Christ HUMBLED Himself. So one of the characteristics of Christ, His kingdom, and His followers is humility. The opposite of humility is self-glorification. One of the characteristics of Satan, his kingdom, and those who knowingly or unknowingly follow him would be self-glorification, i.e. look at me, look at what I can do, me, me, me.... See the difference? So then if a person never worshipped on any day it would be clear by their life who they were "worshipping," who they were following, who they were loyal to.....

As for your question... yes adventists feel that they are correct in their interpretation and must expose the error in teaching by others....



So what I am hearing you say is that you would view evangelizing the ones in error more as conversion than proselytizing?
 
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tall73

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First, I am going to address the issue of differences with other denominations, but I think a more thorough explanation is necessary.


Stormy, I think you are right on!

Understanding the underlying Old Testament Allusions within the book of Revelation can indeed be a key to understanding the passages in revelation that speak of the mark of the beast.

The mark always has its opposite, the seal of God. They key texts are Revelation 13 (already posted), Revelation 7, and 14. In each of these we learn something about the seal of God or the mark of the beast.

In the particular case of the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast one of the key allusions is to the vision of Ezekiel in chapters 8 and 9. Here we see an account of the false worship of the Israelites, practiced by the leaders, in the temple itself. God pronounces judgement on them, and in the vision that Ezekiel sees this judgement is immediate. It foreshadows the actual judgement brought about during the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon.

Here is the key part of the passage as it regards the Seal of God.

EZE 8:17 He said to me, "Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a trivial matter for the house of Judah to do the detestable things they are doing here? Must they also fill the land with violence and continually provoke me to anger? Look at them putting the branch to their nose! 18 Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them."

EZE 9:1 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." 2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.

EZE 9:3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."

EZE 9:5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

As you notice the imagery of a mark in the forehead of those who are faithful to God was already seen here. And it is clear from the vision and subsequent fulfillment of the vison that

a. the mark is not a literal mark
b. The mark is a sign of loyalty to God, and grieving over apostasy and false worship.

In revelation we likewise see God placing a sign of loyalty on those who are faithful to Him amid widespread apostasy. The remnant concept was well firmly anchored in the OT where God had a group that were faithful to Him.

Compare the above vision with this of John's in Revelation 7. Again we see the idea that those who are spared are those who receive the Seal of God.
Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."

The mark of the beast is likewise the sign of loyalty to false worship. In fact we see in Revelation a false trinity (dragon, beast, false prophet), a false lamb (lamb-like beast), a false worship and a false seal, which is the Mark of the Beast.

While we often say that the Sabbath is the seal of God, mainly because it is one of the contested issues of loyalty, it is more true to say that the seal is a sign of one who is completely loyal to God in all things and who grieves and lament over all of the detestable things done in the land.

In fact, the Bible pretty much says that God's Spirit is the seal, not just the Sabbath. That does not mean that the Sabbath is not part of the picture. In fact, as the one commandment of the 10 that is actually DISPUTED in christendom it IS the center of the dispute. But to reduce the seal to just that is a bit simplistic.

And I also believe that God's law is in fact involved in the seal. Walking in the Spirit is how a Christian keeps the law.

Some may object, but I hope to demonstrate the above claims from scripture:

First of all the sealing is mentioned in a few places, I already noted the main ones, Ezekiel's vision, and Revelation 7 and 14. Also the Holy Spirit sealed us for the day of redemption. It is a down payment guaranteeing what is to come, accordingEphesians.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.


In all of the texts about the sealing the key issue was that the people were COMPLETELY dedicated to God. In all but the text in Ephesians there was also a reference to His commandments, and obeying his Will. In fact Paul goes on to talk about Godly living later in Ephesians also, in chapters 4 and 5, so I don't see that he divorces it from this context either. This is obviously more than just keeping the Sabbath, though the Sabbath was included. The reason that the Sabbath will be a key in the last days is because it is an outward sign of loyalty when others are not holding fast to all of God's commandments, as reflected in the 10 commandments.
 
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tall73

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Part 2...sorry for the length, even the forum choked and said it was too long, but I want to be thorough on this one.

Now onto showing that in fact God requires the keeping of His commandments, and the Spirit enables it. The two key books involved in this discussion are Galatians and Romans, as both speak very much on the subject of walking in the Spirit, or keeping the spirit and not the written code.

I will start with Romans. In Romans 1-3:21 Paul covers the failure of all men to keep God's law. Everyone is condemned, but God has made a new means of salvation, grace, apart from law, which is made possible by Jesus' death. Then in chapters 3:21-5 he goes over the ground of Abraham and David not saved by works, Jesus the new Adam, etc. These are all focused on Justification. However, in chapter 6 he takes a turn towards sanctification. He covers the slavery to sin, in chapter 6, and how we should not as Christians submit to the old master. But then in chapter 7 he hits a note of despair, describing the inability of the natural man to keep the law. In fact though, this whole chapter is a DEFENSE of the 10 commandment law.

Since this and the next are key chapters we will look at them in more detail.

RO 7:1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

RO 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

This passage is similar to chapter 6 where Paul says that we died to the old slave master of sin, and are now free from him. This is saying that we are now freed from the passions aroused by the law. Previously we were married to the law. Now, because we died to Christ, we are being married to a new spouse, to Christ. Paul, in his previous life as a pharisee, was married to the law. It was both his goal and his curse, because he dedicated his life to keeping it, but it condemned him because he could not keep it perfectly. It was a slave master. But now he was free from the burden of the law, and served Christ, the new spouse, willingly. Note he does not say we are free from the law completely. He says we are free from the law as a master (for the husband was a master in those days), to serve a new master in the new way of the Spirit (willingly, with the heart), rather than in the cold formalism of the written code.

Now it clearly says we are released from the law, but it will soon be clear (and should be from chapter 6 already) that this does not remove our obligation to keep the law, but simply means that keeping the law through Christ is not a burden (even John says that His commands are not burdensome). Instead we go beyond the letter to keep the spirit in a new way, willingly.

Chapter 6 makes clear Paul's view of continued sinning when he says:
RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Paul is not here changing his mind. But the difference is that before the law aroused passions in us by telling us we couldn't have what we wanted. We resented the law and its bondage. Now we are living for a new master and we naturally do what pleases Him.

Paul is aware that what he has just said will be challenged because it sounds like he is saying there is a problem with the law. He now goes on to defend the law. The problem is not with the law but with US!

RO 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. RO 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Paul makes it clear here that the law is not the problem. The law is not bad. In fact, he says that it serves a very important purpose of REVEALING sin. Note also please that he makes it clear that he feels the ten commandment law in particular is good because he makes reference to the 10th commandment when he says that the law states not to covet.

He then says that sin seized the law, which was good, and used it to produce all kinds of covetous desires. The sinful nature, when it hears it can't have something, reacts. Just ask my 2 year old! He says that it was sin, using the commandments, that put him to death, and affirms that the law itself is holy, righteous and good. In other words, the law is not the problem, sin is the problem. The law is a revelation of God's will that points out sin. If we were not sinning, it would be life giving, not life condemning. Therefore God does not get rid of His law, but our sin. He also wants to get rid of our sinful nature through His Spirit so we can KEEP His law.

RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Paul here goes on to further demonstrate the problem...sin is not the problem, we are. He says the law is Spiritual, but he is not. He agrees that the law is good. But every time he tries to keep it he can't. He finds that it his sinful nature living in him that keeps him from obeying God.

RO 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Here Paul sees that there are two conflicting forces in struggle. God's law in his inner man, and the law or principle, or power of sin working in his body. Sin always wins. Therefore his body is a body of "death" because his continual betrayal of God because of His sinful nature is breaking God's commandments and assuring him the penalty of death. He seems then indicates how utterly in despair someone in this condition is..but then hints that hope is available through Jesus.

Chapter 8 is a radical shift from the life controlled by the sinful nature to a life controlled by the Spirit.
RO 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Ok, now in chapter 8 Paul introduces a third law to this battle. There is still the law of God in his mind which he is unable to keep. Then there is the law of sin in his body. But now through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set him free from the law of sin and death at work in his body. It is important to note that the law of sin and death is not the commandments but the law or principle of the sinful nature that he earlier referenced.

Another way of saying it is that God through His Spirit has overcome the problem of our sinful nature. Verse 3 spells this out. The law was powerless to overcome the sinful nature, but Jesus' death made it possible. He freed us from the guilt of sin, and its power, and CONDEMNED sin in sinful man (He doesn't intend for it to continue). He did this so that the RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW might be fully met in us who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. It is only the Christian by faith who can keep God's law perfectly. The legalist can never hope to because his sinful nature is not capable of keeping God's law.

God has freed us to keep the law, not to get rid of it. But we keep it in a new way through His spirit. The rest of the chapter continues this theme noting that

a. The sinful mind cannot please God. So the natural life of the flesh won't cut it.

b. Those who belong to Christ have His Spirit and live in a new way.

Paul affirms the same thing to the Ephesians, who were sealed with the Spirit:

EPH 4:20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.


We see this throughout the Scriptures in different descriptions...new self, new attitude in our minds, Transformed in your minds, setting thoughts on things above, and walking by the Spirit, etc. All of these are descriptions of the new life in Christ that keeps His law but in a radical new way.



This was part of the new covenant God made:

"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

HEB 8:9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.

HEB 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

HEB 8:11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

HEB 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

God clearly states that he found fault with the people who in Exodus 19 said they would do all the Lord commanded, and he promised to bless them. He says they did not keep His commandment, and therefore broke His covenant. He makes a new covenant that does not depend on their promise to keep the law at all. Instead he says he will

a. forgive sins

b. Be their God

c. put the law in their minds and in their hearts

Part of the new covenant is that God helps us to WANT to keep His law.
 
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tall73

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Galatians too affirms this. The whole book is a condemnation of legalism, but it does not say that we should be lawless at all. The Galatians were depending on heredity, circumcision, etc. as a basis for standing with God. This was not acceptable. So Paul says if you started with the Spirit, why now depend on human effort. But he still affirms that the Spirit will in fact make them obey, and in a better way than the judaizing legalists.

GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

GAL 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Those who are in Christ have gone BEYOND the law. Now this sounds terrible to some I am sure, but it is time we admit that this is precisely what Paul is saying. The point is not that we don't keep the law. The point is that the Spirit will keep the law far more than the flesh ever could. The flesh results in all things sinful ,and it is futile for the fleshly legalist to think to keep God's law. But the one walking in the Spirit goes beyond the prohibitions of the law to do what is GOOD. And he does it naturally. Or as John says, his commands are not burdensome.

Now, it should be noted that if someone is in the Spirit, going beyond the law, if as it says in Romans, the "righteous requirements of the law are fully met in them", then will they disobey the letter of the law? Of course not. The spirit of the law is always MORE stringent than the letter. Jesus' redefinition of adultery was more stringent than the letter of the command. He said that anyone who LUSTS after a woman has committed adultery.

In conclusion I want to note that those who have the seal of God will in fact keep the commandments, and more than that will do all that pleases God and will be GRIEVED over those who do not.

Adventists would do well to remember that those who keep the Sabbath but break all the other commands are no better off. Neither are those who keep the commands legalistically through the flesh.

Others might also do well to note that the spirit which leads one to disregard God's will or His commandments is not the Spirit of God but a spirit of the evil one. The one who walks in the Spirit does not gratify the cravings of the sinful nature.

As to which law, the moral law is cited by Paul and Jesus as binding. But Paul references the shadows of the things to come as being obsolete..those dealiing with the sacrificial system which pointed to Jesus' death and atonement. Even in the text itself the 10 commandments were spoken by God and were seen as far different from the regulations that expanded upon them , and that outlined the sacrificial system later in the book.

Therefore I believe it is the moral law, specifically the 10 commandments, being referenced. Even in their compromise decision in Acts 15 the church did not require the whole mosaic law to be kept, but Paul certainly, as can be seen in the texts above did not believe the moral law of the 10 commandments was done away with. There is little doubt that Romans was written after the indicent in Acts 15 ( though galatians well could have been).

The Sabbath is contained within the 10 commandment law, but in fact predates it. It was instituted at Creation, and the command itself states this as the basis for the commandment. Therefore it also predates the sacrificial system and the Israelite nation. It is part of God's enduring law for humanity.

Now, on to your question about whether we try to correct other denominations.

a. This teaching as to the identity of the beast is not unique to us, though perhaps the identification of the mark itself is. Luther taught it long ago. In fact it was the dominant view of the protestant reformation. So to say that we disagree on a wide basis, while perhaps true in relatively recent times shows a short view of history. However, perhaps I am not being clear becaue you have not yet received a full view on who we think the beast is. We believe it to be the teachings and institution of the papal (Catholic) church. Do we do this because we hate catholics? No. My dad in fact was catholic. I don't hate him. We do it because we honestly believe that is the power the scriptures point to. I will post deatils soon.

b. This teaching, like any other, is one in which other Christians can learn. If God did indeed point out clear signs of who the antichrist is, then I would think we should warn not just other Christians but everyone. However, we must note that in doing so we are not condemning those within the church but the system itself. Afterall God says "come out of her my people," regarding Babylon. His people are there as well as in other places. There are doubtless sincere Christians there doing ALL That they know to do according to what God has revealed. They are His people.

Moreover, we also interpret the second beast in Revelation 13 to be the protestants in America who press the same agenda as the beast, limiting religious freedom and ultimately imposing false worship. So we are not limiting this to one group, but in fact are pointing out the overall themes in the prophetic scenarios.

I might post more on the details in a bit regarding the actual evidence for the identification of the beast and his mark beginning with the most significant passage, Daniel 7. This is the OT basis for the later expansion in Revelation 13.
 
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tall73

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As I referenced earlier, the Sabbath being a key part of the seal of God is an involved topic because it is the result of our whole understanding of prophecy in the scriptures. In other words, for Sunday to be the mark of the beast (a simplification anyway as I already stated in my opinion above) we have to first know what the beast is. To understand that we must look at the references to the beast power. The first is in Daniel 7. But the backdrop for Daniel 7 is Daniel 2 (no I am not being needlessly difficult, just that it is an involved topic you asked about! ) So we will start by laying out the foundation with Daniel 2. Then when I get time I will delve into Daniel 7 and show how it outlines clear guidelines as to who the antichrist/beast power is. ( Incidentally, many t Christians recognize the general outlines of of Daniel 2 and 7 here though not necessarily the final conclusions to our view. )

Then we will finally look at Revelation 13, 14to see how it all ties together. Due to time constraints this could take a few days, so bare with me :)


Daniel two begins with the record of Nebuchadnezzar's dream:
DA 2:1 In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep. 2 So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, "I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means. "
Dreams being very important to the Neo-Babylonian people, as often being a portent of the future, Neb. Wanted to understand this one. Perhaps he could not remember the details, or perhaps he simply wanted to test his wise men. But he asked them to tell what it was that he had dreamed. Of course they could not. So he threatened them with death. To make a long story short Daniel was shown by God the interpretation and I now want to look at the details of the dream for a moment.
First the dream is obviously prophetic, as it describes" the days to come." And was intended for the purpose to impress upon Neb. The reality of God's working in history and especially the point that Neb. was NOT indeed the ruler of his ultimate destiny.
DA 2:27 Daniel replied, "No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come.

The particulars of the dream are as follows:
DA 2:31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue--an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

(I have a nice little picture of the statue here, but I don't have enough posts to put it ...ah well. )


The chief aim of any expositor then is, of course, to identify the different metals in the statue. Daniel begins this task for us in his explanation starting in vs. 36
DA 2:36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
Clearly Daniel says that Nebuchadnezzar himself is the head of gold. Therefore we see that the metals represent monarchs...and more specifically as we shall see, kingdoms. At first glance, one might think that if Neb. is the head of gold, then the silver, etc. are other kings. But the next statement of Daniel shows that this is not the case:
DA 2:39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.
Daniel is not simply implying a succession of kings within the Neo-Babylonian empire, but in fact a new kingdom. This must have greatly troubled Neb. As flattering as it was to be the head of gold, it was even more depressing to hear that his kingdom would not last forever as he had hoped and planned. In fact, it was perhaps because of this disappointment that Neb. later erected an image COMPLETELY of gold on the Plain of Dura, as if to say to God "we will just see about your prophecy." Of course, God did show Neb. through different events that God's will in the end will be done.
So we can conclude that the first metal in the image represents Babylon, the empire that Neb. hoped to establish forever. After his death the empire declined quickly, and another came on the stage.
The book of Daniel clearly identifies the successor to the Babylonian Empire, and certainly history agrees with that. In fact God predicted the rise of Cyrus and the Persians and Medes long before it even happened. It is a fascinating story how it occurred of course, one which you may be familiar with, but which is outside the scope of this post.
The second metal, that of the Medo-Persian Empire, later identified as Media and Persia in Chapter 8:20, is represented by silver. Silver is both less precious than gold, yet more enduring. This is the trend we see in the empires, that in some way the following kingdoms are less wealthy, or perhaps cultured, but more militarily strong.
The next kingdom to come on the world stage, which took over the empire of the Persians (the Medes eventually faded in significance, till the empire became simply known as the Persian Empire) is also equally well known in history. Daniel says this about it:
DA 2:39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth
And in fact it is mentioned in 8:21, as the king of Greece, or Grecia. (By the way I should point out that chapters 2, 7, 8 and to some degree 11 are most likely parallel, telling the same story, or parts of the story, but focusing on different details. The first vision, that of chapter 2 starts out with a broad sweep, and then the details are provided.) The king of Greecia, as history bears out, is none other than Alexander the Great. Alexander united the people of Greece under the banner of his country, Macedonia, and quickly dispatched the largest empire to rule the world to that point, though greatly outnumbered. Again this is another great tale, but too long to place here. Nonetheless, a providential hand was involved.
After the belly and thighs of bronze we have a new metal legs of iron.
Da 2:40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron--for iron breaks and smashes everything--and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.
Here we see again the ascending strength of the metals emphasized. Each empire becomes larger and more powerful than the one before. Each one also lasts longer than the one before, a sign of its strength. The Hellenistic, or Greek/Macedonian empire established by Alexander had a more varied history than the kingdoms before it. In fact, after Alexander died suddenly, the empire went to his son, who was really a figure head. Then the generals basically divided power. There will be more on this in Chapter 7 as it alludes to this. Still, despite the fact that the empire was divided, and that the generals fought among themselves, a common culture dominated the world scene until the next empire came along and smashed these lands to pieces. This empire, according to history was Rome. Rome gradually conquered each of the General's kingdoms, and became truly iron in power, spanning a great deal of territory and time. Amazing that God would foresee all of this! No earthly mind would have picked the little settlements in Italy to rule the world in the time of Daniel... but as Daniel said, God is the one who throws down nations and sets them up.
Now lets say for a moment that I were making up a prophecy. I had one kingdom, then another, then another, each one getting stronger... four in all. What would I do next? A bigger kingdom! But not so in Daniel. Next Daniel says will be a time where no empire dominates.
Da 2:41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
History indeed bears this out. Who conquered the Romans? What empire followed them? Well you can read that big book, "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" if ya like to find out. But I don't suggest it ,cause as long as it is, you might still be reading when the end of this prophecy occurs! But history indeed tells us that Rome fell partly from internal problems, and partly from outside forces. Obviously one of the big factors was the invasion of Rome by Barbaric tribes. None of these tribes gained dominance over the others for long. In fact, these tribes form the basis for the nations of Europe today, though of course this is in some ways a generalization. There were scores of tribes, but some major ones that shaped the world following this. There were also three large tribes that disappeared, and this also is alluded to in Chapter 7. The major tribes, and their corresponding nations are as follows:
Visigoths Spain
Anglo-Saxons England
Franks France (hehe, you knew that one didn't you? )
Alemani Germany
Burgundian Switzerland
Lombards Italy
Suevi Portugal
Heruli, Ostrogoths, Vandals - disappeared, see later posting on chapter 7
Now the prophecy predicted that power would be divided, some of the nations being strong, some weak.
41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
Indeed the latter part was also fulfilled. There have been many attempts to unite the nations that came about from the fall of Rome. Hitler, Napoleon, Charlemagne, Charles V, Kaiser Wilhelm II, etc. Some attempted military, some intermarriage, but whatever happened the prophecy rings true. The nations though they may try to unite have not been successful.
The next part of the prophecy is the most significant. It is still future.

DA 2:44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands--a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."
What an amazing prophecy! God himself will establish an everlasting kingdom. Kings had built there empires, trying to make them eternal, but in the end, history has played just as God foretold. And it is almost up. The prophecy says that "in the time of those kings" God will set up His kingdom. Folks we are at the very end of Neb. image. We are in the Toenails of time, so to speak. In this time we should realize that the God of history is also the God of every individual, and He is coming soon.
Now I want to address a couple of questions that might be asked about the identifications of these metals. As I said it is important to understand them, because much of Daniel parallels this image. Therefore when we get to chapter 7, which discusses the blasphemous little horn power, we will see that it is giving more detail on this vision.
First, some ask why very prominent world Empires are not mentioned in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. For instance, what about China, or the Americas? This is a fair question. But the answer is simply that God was showing Nebuchadnezzer what would happen in the future from HIS point of view. He wanted Neb. to see what would become of his kingdom, and how eventually God's would reign supreme. Moreover, the prophecy deals with the nations that would influence the Israelite people throughout history. Now by the way, Revelation, I believe, brings the U.S. into the picture too, but we will have to look at that later. Suffice to say that these are the nations that were in direct line from Neb. and that would influence God's special people.
Second, some may object by saying that the nations WILL be united in the last days. This is true to a degree, but just as in former times, though the nations seem about to join for good, God intervenes, and it is not successful. In the end times, again, God will intervene, this time by setting up His own kingdom, though for a time it will appear that the world will be united. Now certainly we do see one world worship, and it is supported by political leaders, but this is only allowed to proceed for a short time before God steps in.

This all sets the scene for chapter 7 which expands on the last part of this prophecy, especially the beast.
 
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Cliff2

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woobadooba said:
The people aren't worshipping Sunday! They are worshipping God, and no, it isn't wrong to worship God on Sunday! Does God only want to be worshipped one day a week?

Did I not tell you that you need to see the principle behind the law? Why do you refuse to look for it?



But where does God say it is wrong to worship HIM on Sunday in the Bible? Where! I challenge you right now to show me one verse where He says it is wrong to worship HIM on any other day but the 7th!



You don't understand what the mark of the beast is, and that is why you condemn people for worshipping God on any other day but the 7th.

I too am a Sabbath keeper, but I also believe God wants us to worship HIM daily, not just once a week. That is my point! Again, you judge me without asking questions!

When a person takes a commandment of God and substitutes it with something else, that is sin.

For those of you who may think I am being harsh with Cliff in my response, I assure you that there is a context to it. He sent me an email stating that he has no respect for me because I, an SDA, asked him this question, and should know better.


So will people receive the mark of the beast simply because they worship God on Sunday?

Is worshipping God on Sunday an evil thing Cliff?


For a person who claims to be an SDA and asks "Is worshipping God on Sunday and evil thing" leaves at best a lot to be desired.

We know and believe that as SDA's God say that His remnant followers will keep the Commandments of God.

If these people are going to keep the commandments of God then that does not include Sunday which is the first day of the week where I come from.

No one has the mark of the beast right now but at some time in the future it will happen.

It will be revealed by those who worship on Sunday, the first day of the week.

We should not be holding back God's truth and trying to say that Sunday worship is acceptable to God.

This is an SDA Forum where we should be able to say that in black and white without fear of punishment.

Particularly from others who claim to be SDA's.
 
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payattention

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Cliff2 said:
For a person who claims to be an SDA and asks "Is worshipping God on Sunday and evil thing" leaves at best a lot to be desired.

We know and believe that as SDA's God say that His remnant followers will keep the Commandments of God.

If these people are going to keep the commandments of God then that does not include Sunday which is the first day of the week where I come from.

No one has the mark of the beast right now but at some time in the future it will happen.

It will be revealed by those who worship on Sunday, the first day of the week.
Cliff, I believe that you have a right to loudly proclaim what you believe but you should be aware of the foundation on which you stand. No one on earth knows what the mark of the beast will be. The Bible does not say what it will be either. We say what we think it will be after submitting it to a mathematical equation. We decided that the mark of the beast must be the spitting image of the seal of God. Having made that conclusion we then set about to determine what the seal of God is. It turns out that the Bible does not directly tell us what the seal of God is. We don't need to know since God is the one who will be administering it. Once we had decided what we thought the seal of God is we then chose what we thought to be the opposite of that and labelled that as the mark of the beast. Do you see the danger in that approach?
 
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payattention

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Tall73, you have not proven in any fashion that the Mark of the Beast must be a reflection of the Seal of God, nor have you shown that the Seal of God is the Sabbath. It is best if we leave what has not been revealed to God instead of muddying the waters with what can best be only speculation. I remember the earlier days when we used to preach that the Sunday was the mark of the beast until we were shamed into admitting that that could not be possibly true. We then changed it to say that it won't be until the Sunday laws have been passed. That was not much of an improvement but it is where we are today. Why can't we just obey God as we believe and allow the power or our lives convict those who observe us instead of telling them how far in hell they have already sunk?
 
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Cliff2

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payattention said:
Cliff, I believe that you have a right to loudly proclaim what you believe but you should be aware of the foundation on which you stand. No one on earth knows what the mark of the beast will be. The Bible does not say what it will be either. We say what we think it will be after submitting it to a mathematical equation. We decided that the mark of the beast must be the spitting image of the seal of God. Having made that conclusion we then set about to determine what the seal of God is. It turns out that the Bible does not directly tell us what the seal of God is. We don't need to know since God is the one who will be administering it. Once we had decided what we thought the seal of God is we then chose what we thought to be the opposite of that and labelled that as the mark of the beast. Do you see the danger in that approach?

You claim to be an SDA and do not know what the mark of the beast is.

Also do not know what the seal of God is.

What type of SDA's are we making today?

Haven't you ever been through a set of studies before you became an SDA?

If so then what type of studies were they?
 
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payattention

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Cliff2 said:
You claim to be an SDA and do not know what the mark of the beast is.

Also do not know what the seal of God is.

What type of SDA's are we making today?

Haven't you ever been through a set of studies before you became an SDA?

If so then what type of studies were they?
I will not be distracted. Please address issues I raised. You can always return to these supplemental questions at a later time.
 
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MrJim

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Cliff2 said:
You claim to be an SDA and do not know what the mark of the beast is.

Also do not know what the seal of God is.

What type of SDA's are we making today?

Haven't you ever been through a set of studies before you became an SDA?

If so then what type of studies were they?


Hey folks-sounds like y'all don't have this all worked out.

It was said elsewhere that there is a "reforming" movement happening amongst the SDA. Am I witnessing some of the fallout from that?
 
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woobadooba

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Cliff2 said:
You claim to be an SDA and do not know what the mark of the beast is.

Also do not know what the seal of God is.

What type of SDA's are we making today?

Haven't you ever been through a set of studies before you became an SDA?

If so then what type of studies were they?


Cliff, if you're up to it, I have an excellent book that I would like to reccommend you read.

It is The 1888 Message by George Knight

I know it is off the topic of the mark of the beast, but it is a book that you really need to read.
 
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woobadooba

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Cliff2 said:
For a person who claims to be an SDA and asks "Is worshipping God on Sunday and evil thing" leaves at best a lot to be desired.

We know and believe that as SDA's God say that His remnant followers will keep the Commandments of God.

If these people are going to keep the commandments of God then that does not include Sunday which is the first day of the week where I come from.

No one has the mark of the beast right now but at some time in the future it will happen.

It will be revealed by those who worship on Sunday, the first day of the week.

We should not be holding back God's truth and trying to say that Sunday worship is acceptable to God.

This is an SDA Forum where we should be able to say that in black and white without fear of punishment.

Particularly from others who claim to be SDA's.

Cliff, I know this is difficult for you to do, but go back and read my post more closely please!

You totally missed my point!

Pay special attention the the last sentence that I made concerning the substituting of God's command.
 
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tall73

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menno said:
Hey folks-sounds like y'all don't have this all worked out.

It was said elsewhere that there is a "reforming" movement happening amongst the SDA. Am I witnessing some of the fallout from that?


In all truthfulness you could be. Of course, one man's reforming is anothers heresy :)

As a summary the church, far from prescribing every point of this doctrine, actually has TWO possible solutions listed in its Bible Commentary for the identification of many elements in prophecy, but the majority of members have always held to the traditional view of the beast being the papacy, and the mark being Sunday.

I think the latter is a bit off, but does include that element.


payattention said:
Tall73, you have not proven in any fashion that the Mark of the Beast must be a reflection of the Seal of God, nor have you shown that the Seal of God is the Sabbath. It is best if we leave what has not been revealed to God instead of muddying the waters with what can best be only speculation. I remember the earlier days when we used to preach that the Sunday was the mark of the beast until we were shamed into admitting that that could not be possibly true. We then changed it to say that it won't be until the Sunday laws have been passed. That was not much of an improvement but it is where we are today. Why can't we just obey God as we believe and allow the power or our lives convict those who observe us instead of telling them how far in hell they have already sunk?

Payattention, please note that I did NOT say that Sunday is the mark of the beast. In fact I said at least twice that was a simplification, and the largest part of my argument was to state that in fact we would be more biblical to say that the HOLY SPIRIT is the seal of God, and that the mark of the beast is the opposite....being loyal to the beast.

And while I know it is a long post, I am not yet to the point where I analyze chapters 13 and 14 in depth. I think at that point it will be quite clear to many that the seal and mark are related. If you are not among them, that is fine. No one is holding your feet to the fire to agree :) (ok, some might be, I am not one of them).

It is true by the way, that the specific fulfillments of prophecy are indeed often hidden until AFTER their fulfillment, and prophecy is really more for encouragement than for specific help in interpreting every part of the future. But part of that encouragement is that you gain confidence in the general OUTLINE of the future prophecies, because the former ones came true.

Therefore, the general trends are indeed visible, and the relation of the mark to the seal, and the issue of loyalty in both are quite evident. So why throw out any study just because you feel you can't know the specifics? Truly God said there would be a blessing in the reading of the book. It has to be a blessing for some reason.

Now some of the things I will cover are specifics. They are my best guess for now. If you don't agree. That is fine. Show other evidence. I am not opposed to it.
 
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payattention

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tall73 said:
Payattention, please note that I did NOT say that Sunday is the mark of the beast. In fact I said at least twice that was a simplification, and the largest part of my argument was to state that in fact we would be more biblical to say that the HOLY SPIRIT is the seal of God, and that the mark of the beast is the opposite....being loyal to the beast.
I agree with that. I did not read your long post because I consider these forums as a conversation, not a lecture hall. If it is too long I will try to scan it but I won't read it. I gave my best shot at what I thought you were saying and I am pleased that you responded the way you did. You clarified your point and we did not spoil the thread.

It was also great to see you say that the purpose of prophecy is encouragement. I leave the details to God. If He wanted us to know the future He would have given us the details. I am disappointed at those who believe that the angels will seal us and also believe that we can determine the seal. God says He will seal His own. All we need to do is surrender to Him so we can be certain we are His own. The sealing is in His hands. Since the seal is out of our hands the same is true of the mark of the beast. Even if we could know what it is, having that knowledge would not mean we won't get it.
 
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tall73

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payattention said:
I agree with that. I did not read your long post because I consider these forums as a conversation, not a lecture hall. If it is too long I will try to scan it but I won't read it. I gave my best shot at what I thought you were saying and I am pleased that you responded the way you did. You clarified your point and we did not spoil the thread.

It was also great to see you say that the purpose of prophecy is encouragement. I leave the details to God. If He wanted us to know the future He would have given us the details. I am disappointed at those who believe that the angels will seal us and also believe that we can determine the seal. God says He will seal His own. All we need to do is surrender to Him so we can be certain we are His own. The sealing is in His hands. Since the seal is out of our hands the same is true of the mark of the beast. Even if we could know what it is, having that knowledge would not mean we won't get it.

Yup, no problem. I realize it was long. I guess I felt that the lady asking the questions has no idea why we believe what we do because it involves a large area of study. And that is hard to always impart in conversation mode. (hehe, besides, I am long winded!)

Whether she decides to read it is up to her.
 
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