Sunday Is Not the Sabbath

[BobRyan]

It sounds to me like you are basically in agreement with Baptists on that point, then.

True.

We (Reformed and Lutherans) don't view salvation as based on a persons ability to accept Christ

I thought that might be the case.

, but on God's grace. Christ accepts us first, not the other way around. Salvation is covenantal and sacramental, and not thought of as individualistically.

What do you do with John 1:11?

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"? How is that even possible from your POV?

2 Cor 5 ends with this statement "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"

Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Isaiah 5:
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

===========================

From your POV - don't these texts look exactly like the sort of thing the Baptist and Adventist understanding of free will would allow for?

 

[FireDragon76]

True.

I thought that might be the case.

What do you do with John 1:11?

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"? How is that even possible from your POV?

2 Cor 5 ends with this statement "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"

Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Isaiah 5:
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

===========================

From your POV - don't these texts look exactly like the sort of thing the Baptist and Adventist understanding of free will would allow for?

I'm uncertain what point you are making exactly.

I have no definitive opinion on the controversies between American Arminianism and Calvinism, though I am probably closer to what you'ld think of as a Calvinist than an Arminian. However, I don't find the above Scriptures problematic. I don't accept the notion that we are made right with God by obedience to any law, as I identify with the Evangelical (Reformed and Lutheran) theological tradition of Europe (albeit I am a theological liberal and modernist, and not a fundamentalist). So I believe that God's grace is more central in our salvation than our works or obedience.

 

[PeterDona]

"The Faith Explained" - A Catholic Commentary on the Catechism after Vatican II - states clearly that nothing at all is said in the actual Bible about changing the Lord's Day from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath is Saturday and that document states it is the Lord's Day as God gave it - but then later tradition made a change to it.

I cannot get the text that you are quoting here, so there is no way to confirm the veracity of your words, or to establish how much of it is direct quote and how much is your rewording. Sunday is the day that Jesus rose from the dead, and thereby fulfilled his work for us (Romans 4:35). So sunday is "the Lord's day".
Catholics did NOT change the sabbath, they just stopped keeping it. Sabbath keeping was required in the law of Moses (deuteronomy 5:15) but is not binding on christians. Catholics go to church EVERY day. It says in the Lord's prayer: "give us THIS DAY our daily bread".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm uncertain what point you are making exactly.

I have no definitive opinion on the controversies between American Arminianism and Calvinism, though I am probably closer to what you'ld think of as a Calvinist than an Arminian. However, I don't find the above Scriptures problematic. I don't accept the notion that we are made right with God by obedience to any law, as I identify with the Evangelical (Reformed and Lutheran) theological tradition of Europe (albeit I am a theological liberal and modernist, and not a fundamentalist). So I believe that God's grace is more central in our salvation than our works or obedience.

We are all living in grace because we are all sinners. Grace does not give us a license to sin as Paul tells us. Romans 6:1-2

A good example of this is if one is pulled over for speeding. The law was broken, but if the police officer decides to give you a warning (grace) does that mean the law went away and you can speed off going over the posted speed limit. Of course not. So it’s silly to make the argument because we are living in God’s grace gives us the license to break God’s law and sin. If that were the case Jesus would have died in vain.

 

[Gary K]

EGW changed the way scripture is interpreted and convinced others her way was the right way to interpret. Not too unlike Charles Taze Russell and Marry Baker Eddy.

You're completely mistaken in that assertion. Ellen white did not create SDA theology.

I have been hoping that there would be a thorough reformation, that the principles for which we fought in my girlhood, and which were brought out in the power of the Holy Spirit, would be maintained. Night after night in our early experience our brethren studied out the truths which we now hold. When they came to something that they could not understand, they would get down on their knees and would remain there for hours sometimes. Sometimes the sun would rise before they would give up the struggle. At times, when they said, “We can do nothing more,” the power of God would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and instruction would be given me. Then I could explain what they could not understand. I would read the Scriptures to them, never looking at the printed page. Thus light was given in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood, and the great points of our faith were firmly established. But during this period of our experience, my mind was locked to an understanding of the Scriptures. It was one of the greatest sorrows of my life. Thus it was every point of our faith was established in harmony with the Word of God. Manuscript 46. 1904

When we take the words of others without investigating to find out if what they say is true or not we can be led far astray from what is true.

 

[ozso]

You're completely mistaken in that assertion. Ellen white did not create SDA theology.

She did a lot of plagiarizing like Joseph Smith, but also like him she's still the founding prophet.

 

[Gary K]

She did a lot of plagiarizing like Joseph Smith, but also like him she's still the founding prophet.

So, are you calling her a liar?

And as to the plagiarizing charge she did nothing more than fair use. Plus she came to different conclusions than the sources she used. I've seen studies in which were side by side comparisons and there was never more than a single paragraph quoted verbatim and most of the time not more than a few sentences. You can't tell the same stories as someone else without the writing being very similar as there are only so many ways to tell a story. But have it your way as I know you're far more interested in condemning her than searching for the truth about her. That's your choice and you have the God given liberty to be as wrong as you choose to be.

No hard feelings on my part. We just see things differently.

 

[ozso]

So, are you calling her a liar?

I'm saying in my opinion she holds as much credibility as the slew of other 19th century American prophets such as Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddie etc.

And as to the plagiarizing charge she did nothing more than fair use. Plus she came to different conclusions than the sources she used. I've seen studies in which were side by side comparisons and there was never more than a single paragraph quoted verbatim and most of the time not more than a few sentences. You can't tell the same stories as someone else without the writing being very similar as there are only so many ways to tell a story. But have it your way as I know you're far more interested in condemning her than searching for the truth about her. That's your choice and you have the God given liberty to be as wrong as you choose to be.

No hard feelings on my part. We just see things differently.

Whatever the case Ellen G White is the prophet figurehead mother of SDA.

 

[Gary K]

I'm saying in my opinion she holds as much credibility as the slew of other 19th century American prophets such as Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddie etc.

Whatever the case Ellen G White is the prophet figurehead mother of SDA.

You have your opinion even though it is not upheld by the evidence. I prefer to have my opinions upheld by the evidence of the matter. But you are correct in rhat I believe Ellen White to be a prophet, a true prophet.

I don't get why you have to be insulting about it though.