Sunday Is Not the Sabbath

[FireDragon76]

hint: Protestant Reformation
As a Lutheran - perhaps you have heard of it.

Luther didn't proselytize. He wasn't inducing people to join a new religion. He certainly didn't claim to be a prophet. In fact he confronted false prophets and asked for proof of their charism. When they refused to give any biblical evidence for their prophetic gifts, such as a sign from God, they ran away in shame.

 

[BobRyan]

Funny thing that sda's (seventh day adventists) are better versed in what the catholic church believes than I am.

I am not clear on how that helps your point.

And I have probably said it before, but ... the catholic church is the church that provides the best fit to the Bible as I know it until now

Ok so when I point out that the ceremonial laws on sacrifice and offerings ended at the cross according to Heb 10:4-12 and that even your own denomination affirms this point , but the moral law of God that includes the TEN -- remain -- what about this do you find the least bit "new" or different from what you already believe?

 

[BobRyan]

So? I see no reason to believe that Adventists have a special knowledge of prophecy.

You have free will - you can reject whatever teaching you like.

But that was not your statement before. Earlier you made the claim that having direct information from God was in same way "bad" and I simply point out that you condemn the entire NT church when you make those sorts of general statements.

Ellen White's prophecies did not come true

Some say that - but It is not true. However my argument is not to argue for Ellen White's 1 Cor 12 prophetic gift. My point is that Bible doctrine is true and that the Bible says in Eph 4 and 1 Cor 12 that spiritual gifts continue until the end of time.

I am not one of the "all Ellen White all the time" thread starters on CF.

 

[BobRyan]

Luther didn't proselytize

"the protesting Catholics" actually proselytized existing Catholics to join their movement. Have you heard of it?

Luther nailed his 95 objections to a Catholic church door - years later Luther started calling the Pope "Antichrist". His reformation movement put Germany in a state of civil war. IT also spread to strong opposition in other nations against the Catholic church and new reformation groups sprang up in France, in Switzerland -- all over Europe.

The NT Jewish Christians were proselytizing non-Christian Jews in Acts 2 - and Acts 17, and Acts 18:4 and ... -- to join them.

. He wasn't inducing people to join a new religion.

ITs all Christianity - just as the case with Methodists, Baptists, and Adventists. Its the same religion but a different denomination.

When they refused to give any biblical evidence for their prophetic gifts, such as a sign from God, they ran away in shame.

Numbers 12:5-8 and 1 Cor 12 never argue that that prophet must perform "a sign from God" to have the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy.

I suspect we all now that.

 

[PeterDona]

Ok so when I point out that the ceremonial laws on sacrifice and offerings ended at the cross according to Heb 10:4-12 and that even your own denomination affirms this point , but the moral law of God that includes the TEN -- remain -- what about this do you find the least bit "new" or different from what you already believe?

You already know the answer. The sabbath is no longer a mandatory day off. Jesus did not require it in the NT. He did require the other 9. How could this be difficult?

p.s. you probably do not need to answer the question which is more like rhetorical. Because I know full well what the sda's believe, funny thing that the sabbath keeping was not even in their original set of beliefs, but it was introduced by a guy who was ... seventh day baptist, of all Just goes to show what a mix pot of doctrines the sda movement turned into.

 

[FireDragon76]

"the protesting Catholics" actually proselytized existing Catholics to join their movement. Have you heard of it?

He just preached the Gospel. He didn't rebaptize people. In fact he was very much opposed to that. Lutherans confess "one holy Catholic and apostolic church", the same as Roman Catholics do. We are not a sect or a new teaching.

Luther nailed his 95 objections to a Catholic church door

There were no other churches. At any rate, the story has been widely exaggerated, but in reality he sent a letter to a bishop making a case for his objections. It's sort of like the story of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, it's more of a legend.

- years later Luther started calling the Pope "Antichrist".

Only after he had been excommunicated.

His reformation movement put Germany in a state of civil war.

Which he didn't intend. Luther was a complicated man, of course, but he wasn't a fan of war.

 

[FireDragon76]

You have free will - you can reject whatever teaching you like.

But that was not your statement before. Earlier you made the claim that having direct information from God was in same way "bad" and I simply point out that you condemn the entire NT church when you make those sorts of general statements.

Not true. Jesus preached in public, and that was his plea at his trial in front of the Jewish elders. It was the claim he preached in secret his enemies used against him.

Some say that - but It is not true. However my argument is not to argue for Ellen White's 1 Cor 12 prophetic gift. My point is that Bible doctrine is true and that the Bible says in Eph 4 and 1 Cor 12 that spiritual gifts continue until the end of time.

I don't doubt that. I just doubt that a particular sect has any expertise in discerning them.

 

[FireDragon76]

hint: Protestant Reformation
As a Lutheran - perhaps you have heard of it.


"the protesting Catholics" actually proselytized existing Catholics to join their movement. Have you heard of it?
The NT Jewish Christians were proselytizing non-Christian Jews in Acts 2 - and Acts 17, and Acts 18:4 and ... -- to join them.

Out of curiosity - how is it you think SDA claim that the reformation was an apocalyptic event??

Do you mean that we claim that the Bible predicted the "falling away" in 2 Thess 2 in the case of false doctrines entering the church and then it would need to be "restored"? What is your meaning?

We do not view the Reformation as a restoration, as Adventists and similar groups seem to. We don't deny that Catholics are actual Christians with valid baptisms and valid sacraments.

 

[BobRyan]

We do not view the Reformation as a restoration, as Adventists and similar groups seem to. We don't deny that Catholics are actual Christians

We don't deny the Catholics are Christians either - but we claim they are a different denomination just as Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Adventists etc.

We share open communion with all of them in OUR services.

 

[BobRyan]

Which he didn't intend. Luther was a complicated man, of course, but he wasn't a fan of war.

His doctrines were distinct "enough" from the Catholic denomination that he ended up forming his own and getting the Bible into the language of the people was a big part of that.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

But that was not your statement before. Earlier you made the claim that having direct information from God was in same way "bad" and I simply point out that you condemn the entire NT church when you make those sorts of general statements.

Not true. Jesus preached in public,

And so do we. And so do all other Christian denominations.

 

[FireDragon76]

His doctrines were distinct "enough" from the Catholic denomination that he ended up forming his own and getting the Bible into the language of the people was a big part of that.

Lutherans actually don't consider themselves to be their own denomination, as a sect or new church. Other groups pinned that on them. In fact the term "Lutheran" is an epithet that others gave us. In Europe, most Lutherans will not identify themselves as such, they will just say "I was baptized in the Church" or "I am an Evangelical".

The vernacular thing isn't so simple. The Augsburg confession was first written in Latin, and it is still considered a valid confessional statement. There is nothing in the Lutheran doctrine that says Jerome's Vulgate doesn't contain the Word of God also. There is also no prohibition on using Latin in worship, and Lutheran theological terms often use Latin as well.

 

[BobRyan]

The sabbath is no longer a mandatory day off. Jesus did not require it in the NT.

He did not quote "Do not take God's name in vain" but that did not delete the commandment - as we all know.

Jesus kept the Sabbath as per the scriptures and even in the NT "sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 -- Jesus claimed He was not a transgressor of God's Law.

EVERY example of a weekly worship service in the NT is always the Bible Sabbath.
So then "Every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 for those weekly Gospel preaching services to both gentiles and Jews.

Such that in Acts 13 GENTILES who have just had the gospel preached to them stand by and wait for all the Jews to leave the synagogue then they ask for MORE Gospel preaching to be scheduled for them on "The NEXT Sabbath"

"The Faith Explained" - A Catholic Commentary on the Catechism after Vatican II - states clearly that nothing at all is said in the actual Bible about changing the Lord's Day from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath is Saturday and that document states it is the Lord's Day as God gave it - but then later tradition made a change to it.

 

[FireDragon76]

We don't deny the Catholics are Christians either - but we claim they are a different denomination just as Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Adventists etc.

We share open communion with all of them in OUR services.

Do SDA's recognize the validity of infant baptism, or do you commune the unbaptized?

 

[BobRyan]

You know what kind of organizations say they have secret knowledge that nobody else has?

The NT Christian church for one

Cults

that's what the Non-Christian Jews said about the early Christians

Simple name-calling is not as effective once mankind passed the age of the dark ages. I guess a lot of us knew that.

All I hear is a sect claiming they have the truth and nobody else has it. This is the same thing numerous other cults and sects preach.

The early Church never claimed to have special knowledge in that manner.

The NT church claimed to have direct Revelation from God. Are you familiar with the book of Revelation? Or 2Thess 2? or 2 Thess 1? Or Acts 1? or 2 Cor 12? or ....

The Gospel of John actually contradicts this notion, it says Christ is the light that enlightens all (John 1:9)

But the NT does not claim that ALL have the gift of Prophecy - read 1 Cor 12 regarding that point. In fact in 1 Cor 14"1-3 Paul says "I WISH That you all had the gift of prophecy"

. My point is that Bible doctrine is true and that the Bible says in Eph 4 and 1 Cor 12 that spiritual gifts continue until the end of time.

I don't doubt that. I just doubt that a particular sect has any expertise in discerning them.

NT writers did in fact claim to have pure doctrine - and very specific expertise in discerning correct doctrine as we see in the claims made in Eph 4.

 

[BobRyan]

Do SDA's recognize the validity of infant baptism, or do you commune the unbaptized?

We hold communion with those who claim to have accepted Christ as their Savior and we do not believe in what is called "Baptismal regeneration". Rather we believe in what 1 Peter 3 calls "The appeal to God for a clean conscience" which can only be made by "believers" not infants.

So while infants are not invited to partake of the communion emblems we do invite knowing-believers to do so. And we only practice baptism of believers.

 

[BobRyan]

Lutherans actually don't consider themselves to be their own denomination,

Well I suppose you know that the rest of Christianity does view Lutherans as a denomination. In fact they are more than one denomination. Just as Baptists are more than one denomination.

Other groups pinned that on them.

No doubt - but Lutherans have a body of doctrines that define them -- and that is the issue we are talking about.

There is nothing in the Lutheran doctrine that says Jerome's Vulgate doesn't contain the Word of God also.

I am not aware of any denomination that claims that the Vulgate is not a translation of scripture -- what are you talking about??

I am pretty sure there is no Purgatory doctrine in the Lutheran church and no indulgences... do you have "communion with the dead" as the Catholic church speaks of it?

 

[FireDragon76]

We hold communion with those who claim to have accepted Christ as their Savior and we do not believe in what is called "Baptismal regeneration". Rather we believe in what 1 Peter 3 calls "The appeal to God for a clean conscience" which can only be made by "believers" not infants.

So while infants are not invited to partake of the communion emblems we do invite knowing-believers to do so. And we only practice baptism of believers.

You said you communed everyone, right? Everyone includes children. My religion doesn't discriminate against Christians based on age.

 

[BobRyan]

You said you communed everyone, right? Everyone includes children. My religion doesn't discriminate against Christians based on age.

infants do not share the communion bread.. but they are in church.
Children are also in church.
What is the point of having someone participate in communion who either can not or does not claim to have accepted Christ as their Savior of their own free will -- in your POV?

 

[FireDragon76]

infants do not share the communion bread.. but they are in church.
Children are also in church.
What is the point of having someone participate in communion who either can not or does not claim to have accepted Christ as their Savior of their own free will -- in your POV?

It sounds to me like you are basically in agreement with Baptists on that point, then.

We (Reformed and Lutherans) don't view salvation as based on a persons ability to accept Christ, but on God's grace. Christ accepts us first, not the other way around. Salvation is covenantal and sacramental, and not thought of as individualistically.