Sufficient vs Necessary

[FreeGrace2]

So you think reconciliation occurs without salvation ?

It has to. Paul wrote that Christ reconciled the WORLD[/U] to God. I notice that he didn't write that Christ reconciled the "elect", or "believers" or any subgroup of humanity.

What is the cause of our reconciliation if not Christs death ?

It IS Christ's death that is the cause of our reconciliation.

If. Christs death is not the cause of our salvation and mans faith is then clearly anyone can lose their salvation .

No, man's faith is NOT the cause of their salvation. God is ALWAYS and ONLY the cause of one's salvation.

If Christ's death caused salvation, then everyone would be saved, because He died for everyone. But only believers are saved.

But the key is 1 Cor 1:21; God is pleased to save those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

On what basis is a person justified?

God declares righteous those who believe Him. The basis is faith. Do you disagree?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So then you don't believe God's work satisfies the requirement of your justification. It is instead, your work. Glad we could clear that up.

Actually, you've cleared nothing up. Your conclusions are wrong totally. I'm sorry that my posts keep misleading you, apparently.

Seems your view is that faith is a work, because of your repeated "work" comments.

Why should anyone believe that faith is a work? Paul was clear that it isn't a work. Work is something that earns something. Faith earns nothing.

Why isn't it enough to say that God credits righteousness to those who believe? What is the point in trying to make it way more complicated than necessary?

If it can be proven that man's act of believing in Christ is a gift from God, then RT "wins". So, please proceed.

If that can't be proven from clearly worded and unambiguous Scripture, I'll believe it. Otherwise, there is no point to believe what can't be found in Scripture.

 

[guuila]

God declares righteous those who believe Him. The basis is faith. Do you disagree?

Okay, so does God provide that faith?

 

[guuila]

Paul was clear that it isn't a work. Work is something that earns something. Faith earns nothing.

Exactly. Paul taught faith is a gift from God.

Why isn't it enough to say that God credits righteousness to those who believe?

It is. But now you're changing the subject.

What is the point in trying to make it way more complicated than necessary?

Not sure. Maybe you should direct your question to someone who is actually doing that.

 

[janxharris]

Okay, so does God provide that faith?

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

 

[guuila]

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Amen! Care to answer my question?

 

[janxharris]

Amen! Care to answer my question?

Abraham believed God because God tweaked Abraham so that he could believe?
If that is the case, why the accreditation of righteousness?

 

[cygnusx1]

It has to. Paul wrote that Christ reconciled the WORLD[/u] to God. I notice that he didn't write that Christ reconciled the "elect", or "believers" or any subgroup of humanity.


It IS Christ's death that is the cause of our reconciliation.


No, man's faith is NOT the cause of their salvation. God is ALWAYS and ONLY the cause of one's salvation.

If Christ's death caused salvation, then everyone would be saved, because He died for everyone. But only believers are saved.

But the key is 1 Cor 1:21; God is pleased to save those who believe.

what do you think being reconciled means ?

reconciliation without salvation ? in your view yes !

 

[guuila]

Abraham believed God because God tweaked Abraham so that he could believe?
If that is the case, why the accreditation of righteousness?

I'm sorry that you're unable to reconcile the fact that God gives what he requires in your mind. I really don't know what else to say to you. If you'd rather God leave it up to you, more power to you I guess.

 

[janxharris]

I'm sorry that you're unable to reconcile the fact that God gives what he requires in your mind. I really don't know what else to say to you. If you'd rather God leave it up to you, more power to you I guess.

No reconciliation needed. It doesn't say, 'Abraham tweaked believed God,' it says 'Abraham'.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay, so does God provide that faith?

I asked a question, and your question dodges my question.

Here it is again:
God declares righteous those who believe Him. The basis is faith. Do you disagree?
Please answer my question before asking one. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Exactly. Paul taught faith is a gift from God.

No he didn't. Salvation is the gift, per Eph 2:8.

It is. But now you're changing the subject.

No, I'm getting to the point. Whatever else has been brought up is unnecessary.

Not sure. Maybe you should direct your question to someone who is actually doing that.

I thought I was. The one asking all the questions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

what do you think being reconciled means ?

This is what a Greek lexicon says about the word:
katallassō

1) to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
1a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)
1b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one
1c) to receive one into favour

I don't see anything about salvation here. I do see an "exchange", which would refer to Jesus paying the sin debt for all of humanity. I do see that Jesus removed the sin barrier between man and God, which can be understood as a "return to favor" in God's eyes.

iow, by the payment of sin for all of humanity, Jesus removed the barrier that stood between man and God. By that removal, the justice of God was satisfied and God is free to grace mankind.

reconciliation without salvation ? in your view yes !

Yes, that's what I said. And explained.

If you disagree, how so?

 

[shturt678s]

God declares righteous those who believe Him. The basis is faith. Do you disagree?

Not disagreeing, however what I see around me today, ie, especially compared to just 3 decades ago - ICor.15:2, "unless you believed in vain." Some-time believers, make-believers, and deceived-believers should be concerned, ie, true believers, "no worry, be happy."

Old Jack

 

[AndOne]

I asked a question, and your question dodges my question.

Here it is again:
God declares righteous those who believe Him. The basis is faith. Do you disagree?
Please answer my question before asking one. Thanks.

He said "okay" - which leads me to believe he agreed with you - then he asked you a question...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not disagreeing, however what I see around me today, ie, especially compared to just 3 decades ago - ICor.15:2, "unless you believed in vain." Some-time believers, make-believers, and deceived-believers should be concerned, ie, true believers, "no worry, be happy."

Old Jack

Thanks for bringing up 1 Cor 15:2. The Greek word for "in vain" is:
eikē

1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort

I believe the word means to believe "without a purpose", which would be in vain.

What is the purpose for faith in Christ? Wealth, health, happiness, etc? No. There is no such thing as a "prosperity gospel", in spite of the many books and TV preachers pushing it.

The purpose of faith in Christ is FOR eternal life. iow, that's what we need to believe in Him FOR.

1 Pet 1:9
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Even more clear:
1 Tim 1:16
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Those who place their faith in Christ FOR eternal life ARE saved.

Saving faith requires 2 things: object, which is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and purpose, which is eternal life.

Apart from both of these, faith is "in vain". And doesn't save.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He said "okay" - which leads me to believe he agreed with you - then he asked you a question...

I'll let him respond. I didn't take "okay" the way you have.

 

[guuila]

No reconciliation needed. It doesn't say, 'Abraham tweaked believed God,' it says 'Abraham'.

Ok so Abraham wasn't a sinner?

 

[guuila]

I asked a question, and your question dodges my question.

Here it is again:
God declares righteous those who believe Him. The basis is faith. Do you disagree?
Please answer my question before asking one. Thanks.

No. Did God provide that faith?