Submission.

[sunlover1]

Well I'm not sure what any of those verses except 1 Pet 5:5 has to do with the question, but that one verse settles it: as Christians we need to be respectful and attentiveness to the shepherding of our pastors.

And our leaders should be our servants, dying for us so to speak...
As Christ, (perfect theology) taught us.

 

[sunlover1]

Hi,
Dearest,
You are so off the point. I have the Bible, because of that Church, and no, to you I say, they did not write that book. I have much from them. Never would I, nor never could I, just like you throw all that is good away, for a few errors. I also if you are not merely argumentative, or have a hidden agenda, am not willing to throw you away either. The choice is yours.
LOVE, for real,
...Katherina., .... .

You're right, we do have Scripture in part, thanks to "the church". If by "the church" you mean, those who follow/followed Jesus.
If by "the church" you mean a particular denomination, then I have to disagree and wonder why it's even mentioned.
Blessings.
sunlover

 

[katerinah1947]

You're right, we do have Scripture in part, thanks to "the church". If by "the church" you mean, those who follow/followed Jesus.
If by "the church" you mean a particular denomination, then I have to disagree and wonder why it's even mentioned.
Blessings.
sunlover

Hi,
Of course I do. Even Paul followed Jesus, after of course he saw the Light, Literally, and was changed. I do mean that.
Yet, in those days, wasn't it the one's we now call The Roman Catholics, who made sure we had the Bible? If not fine. I care not actually, but only because that book in its present form is Real. I do not mean every translation. I mean if you just look at the simple things, and if you check all translations, and try and figure out if God said something or not. I mean if you either then test those items, non foolishly, or if God somehow speaks to you, then who cares anymore, because God is Real then, and it is He who guides, even in reading scripture, or who to go to, to find the correct answers that are verified by God, within you.
I am tired sorry. I should probably say more, to be clear.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

And our leaders should be our servants, dying for us so to speak...
As Christ, (perfect theology) taught us.

Hi,
I so totally agree with you. Many fail the test, of Matthew 7:16, thus we are to only listen to their quoted words, from the Bible, and nothing more, ever.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

If nobody minds, I'm gonna give all the glory to God.

 

[sunlover1]

Hi,
I so totally agree with you. Many fail the test, of Matthew 7:16, thus we are to only listen to their quoted words, from the Bible, and nothing more, ever.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

That's what He said!

As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

 

[sunlover1]

Hi,
Of course I do. Even Paul followed Jesus, after of course he saw the Light, Literally, and was changed. I do mean that.
Yet, in those days, wasn't it the one's we now call The Roman Catholics, who made sure we had the Bible? If not fine. I care not actually,

I don't care either.
Could care less who He used to bring Scripture, to copy it, protect it, be it
the Jews or the Christians or both or many.
But no, according to what I've read, it was "the church".
I understand how you feel, I, as a former Roman Catholic used to tell
my friends that MY religion (catholicism) was founded by Jesus lol.
Which was partly true lol, but certainly so was theirs (this was at an
Awana class in a Baptist church) Funny thing was, none of them knew
any better so they probably thought, "wow". Maybe they went home and
asked their dads lol.

but only because that book in its present form is Real. I do not mean every translation. I mean if you just look at the simple things, and if you check all translations, and try and figure out if God said something or not. I mean if you either then test those items, non foolishly, or if God somehow speaks to you, then who cares anymore, because God is Real then, and it is He who guides, even in reading scripture, or who to go to, to find the correct answers that are verified by God, within you.
I am tired sorry. I should probably say more, to be clear.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

Oh no, you're very clear, and this all bears witness with my spirit as well.
Very nicely said!
Sweet dreams!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I have the Bible, because of that Church

No, because of your individual denomination. Yours has a UNIQUE Bible that NONE other has EVER, EVER accepted. It is one more point at which the individual RC Denomination is in disunity, standing all by itself, an issue where that has ALWAYS been the case.


But IMO the reality that you have a UNIQUE Bible does not document that if an individual teacher among us (person, church, denomination, sect, cult) insists that all submit and obey it itself as God Himself ergo we must.

Never would I, nor never could I, just like you throw all that is good away, for a few errors.

1. Perhaps you have no awareness of Lutheranism....

2. A few ERRORS? You have to swallow WHATEVER your singular, individual denomination currently says AS THE VERY WORDS OF GOD HIMSELF (see what the RC Denomination demands of you in CCC 87). IF you even entertain the theoretical possibility of doctrinal errors in the RCC, you have left Catholicism and are no longer Catholic. When I stated what you just did, I had the integrity, the honesty to leave and not continue in pretense.


See post # 3.



Thank you.


pax


- Josiah

 

[katerinah1947]

.



Authority = Dictator? Authority Negates Accountability?


I think a thread to discuss authority might be helpful...... Normally, "authority" among human leaders carries with it an equal responsibility.
..... Yes, but the responsiblility might be to steal. ......

It perhaps could be argued that President Obama has the greatest authority of any American - but he also has the greatest responsibility: his authority does not negate accountability, it simply increases it.
....Yes, but what about hidden agendas. ......

I think some equate "authority" with "Dictatorship."
..... Who cares......

Perhaps something of that nature could be ascribed to God, but not man.
.... poor seque. .....


When I was a Junior in college, I suddenly realized I had missed a core requirement.
.... Okay .....


To fulfill it, I could have AGAIN taken some lower division intro class in US or world history but instead, I got the prof's okay to take an upper division course in "Classical History" (Greece and Rome).
..... Okay .....


I took it in hopes of learning about the world of Jesus (which the class hardly touched on) but I learned MUCH about the milieu, the mentality, the spirit of ROME.
..... Okay .....

It's incredibly obsessed with POWER - unmitigated, unaccountable, anything-goes POWER.
..... Okay .....

Centrality.... CONTROL..... submission.... obedience....... lording it over all.
..... Okay. Read Romans 13 1-5.

All this is uber-Roman.
.....Okay

Truth, morality, right.... these are all off the radar, what matters is the POWER one can exercise over others to cause them to submit, obey.
.... Woah. That is not what Paul said. It is not.
.... Paul lived during that era
.... Paul is Roman
.... Your professor is neither
.... The writers of text are neither
....


This was especially true after the Republic fell.
....So, you took and unproven and possibly falacious point, and now want to talk about it.
.... This is based on a false premise.
.... So, the rest of this is also probably false. Your origial premise is False. Read
what Paul a Roman Citizen of the Times said in Romans 13 1-5.

Of course, the RC Denomination, formed by Rome in the image of Rome, had the paradigm of Rome to guide it (there was no other paradigm - especially in the west). The prof (a non-religious man) STRESSED that Rome never "fell" but continued - and his primary example was the Roman Catholic Church. For me, a LOT fell into place - all my experiences in the RC Denomination and with fundamentalist Catholics. And this uber-obsession with POWER, Dictatorship.... this obsession in the RC Denomination with denying accountability and responsibility, this uber-obsession with lording it over others..... it was a big part of why I left that denomination.



The great philosopher/theologian Mr. Miyagi:


There is a balance here..... Yes, as in all organizations (institutional or organic), in all disciplines (nothin' unique about Christian theology on this point)... there is the issue of authority; there is a repudiation of the extreme individualism (of say the RCC - nowhere is radical individualism better illustrated). BUT there is a counter, a balance - that of accountability, responsibility. Finding that BALANCE can be hard! But I sense that the RCC (and to a lesser degree, the LDS and also some groups many could label "cults") tend to ignore the accountability part. But I think modern Western Christianity often errs on the other side too - and we are left with relativism and "personal" religion. BALANCE. Authority and Accountability. One of the great philosophers and theologians of the 20th Century, Mr. Miygi of "The Karate Kid" said, "Go find the balance!" Ah.... not so easy. Most go to the extremes and loose it entirely.


True Teachers, False Teachers


Another point: "presbyter" who is uber-obsessed with the unmitigated POWER that self gives to self is one who should not be submitted to (See the Catholic Catechism # 87, see also "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle and Prophet Bruce McConkie, see just about any "cult" on this point). If I signed up for a class and the Prof began by insisting, "What I'M saying - individually, exclusively, currently - is exempt from truth (and anything and everything else for that matter) and you are to OBEY and SUMMIT to ME individually regardless of truth or right - don't question, don't hold ME accountable!" Well, I'd not only leave the class but report it to the Administration.

I sense that the TRUE TEACHER welcomes the light and comes into the light, insists on accountability, because for the TRUE TEACHER, truth matters rather than the unmitigated power of self alone to lord it over others who passively submit. The true teacher desires truth to prevail (not the power of self) and is confident that God's truth will prevail.

My study of the "cults" convinced me that the FALSE TEACHER hides from the light, denies the light, rejects accountability (in the sole case of self alone), and builds around self HUGE, THICK, TALL walls of egoism, self-centeredness, self-glorification, insisting that SELF is so special, so enormously powerful as to exempt self alone from accountability, responsibility.... all must SUBMIT to SELF ALONE as unto God Himself because what matters to the false teacher is the power and lordship of self.



God's Warning Should NOT be Ignored..... God MEANT it!


Over and over and over - OT and NT - God repeatedly warns us of false teachers.... to beware of false teachers..... to test all teachers. I think this at least implies that teachers CAN be wrong. And nowhere - nowhere - is the singular, individual, exclusive, particular, individual, current RC Denomination ever given a complete "pass" on accountability. Those that exempt SELF from this probably realize they need to. See CCC 87, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. See "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie. See just about every "cult" here is on this issue.


Dictators.... false teachers...... must deny accountability/responsibility and must demand obedience/submission - sometimes as unto God Himself. It's a function of dictators. They must stress SELF.... they must insist how SPECIAL (almost divine) is SELF.





Thank you.


pax


- Josiah




.

Hi Dear,
Your premise about Rome is built on a class, that is countered by what Paul said. You took what the class said, and applied it as though it were the total truth. This could mean many things. Yet, the most disheatening thing is , the first time I told you that you had made errors, in this post. You did not go back to look for them. You instead now have told me three more times, that I should go back and read what I have already read. To prove that I read it, I have responded to that here.
I cannot throw Paul's words out. God, yes God, told us through Paul something amazing here. He told us that at their core, every Government is from Him, God, and as such we are to follow their laws also.
This is graduate material. This is also Ph.D. candidate type of material. See the point. God told us there that He makes even the laws for civilians (those not belonging to the Christian Faith, which God says He causes to happen in people, and we do not. He gives faith. He calls. We are called. We are not great. We have been called.).
If God tells us, we are to follow His Civlian laws, and those laws exist in Rome, than you position of it being so uber wrong with God, are not right. God says the core of every government is good. And it is. Your class was about "Dismantlers"
Dismantlers are all those whose main purpose is to undo, the Good that is in the world, and in Governments. Your class was not about that Government. It was about the dismantlers.
LOVE still,
...Katherna., .... .

 

[MoreCoffee]

Holy scripture recommends submission.

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17)​

 

[katerinah1947]

Holy scripture recommends submission.

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17)​

Hi,
But this is still for Josh. Mr/Miss MoreCoffee says that they agree also. We are to submit to our leaders. You did not read the Catechism in context. This is what they say. We get our infomation from Scripture. We spend our lives on finding out what it says. You should listen to us, on ,,,,,those.....points.
Yet, that Scripture also says to listen to what the Civilian authorities say because those laws also come from God. (Romans 13 1-5). Mr MoreCoffee is hopefully also agreeing with following that also, as that is scriptural.
Following those laws, both the Religious ones and the Civilian ones, are a submission, but a submission of love. Initially, no, following good civilian laws and also good religious laws, are not out of love. They are out of terror or fear, and of what no one knows, but many words like hell and death are thrown around. Both of those scare. Later, it is out of something else, and hell and death take on a whole new meaning, connected with love.
But, we have another law to follow. It is the Law put into our hearts, yes our hearts by God. We are to follow those, And to complete things, blessings by God upon all of us, are Laws also. We are to follow those.
If like you imply above, you are a college person. Your next step is to decide wheter or not you are scholarly. If you dive into what you have just read, and find you are wrong, by a test/method I will give you before I leave here, then you are enntering in, to true knowledge, rather than just quoting what others have told you is true.
To find the truth of anything that you do not know, and no one else has a provable answere either, Take a Guess, and Try and Prove your Guess Wrong to Yourself.
That's it. Out of that, every great thing, from Science and even Religion has been given to us. There is more. When you master that, then realize this. Even what you prove to be right, and no one can prove your guess wrong, that inoformation, and that insight, came from God, so you have still done no great work.
LOVE,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[MoreCoffee]

I pay a lot of attention to the CCC but I do not think that brother CaliforniaJosiah gives it much credence in his doctrine.

 

[katerinah1947]

I pay a lot of attention to the CCC but I do not think that brother CaliforniaJosiah gives it much credence in his doctrine.

Hi,

I am going to tell much here, in hopes of making CaliforniaJosh feel wonderful. I don't know how else to do this, without saying much, in Magnitude.

And I am so hoping that he is an engineering student. Let me tell you why in short form and then in long form.

Short form: God has us all do different things for him, but it is still God, assigning one to do this and another to do that.

Long form, with LOVE:
I recently went through a seminar of sorts with God. He sent an angel years ago to help a boy in a closet. He was praying the Rosary. There were two angels there, one was Michael, and I think Jesus of The Sacred Heart was there, I seem to recall.
The boy is terribly frightened, and for a lot of reasons. One right then is his parents were fighting. So here He is Jesus. Jeus of The Sacred Heart in this case. ~This is your guardian angel ****. He is to protect you. He is also to talk to you and you to him. Michael is there. He will remember that years later, in a flash back incident, and I will hear this story for the first time. Then I already knew he had a "talking guardian angel", although it took me awhile to finally believe this. I did though, and by a seeing process as well as a verbal process. I am miles apart from this angel and his boy. They are in Europe and I am in America. One day the angel drops a bomb on me. "I am also to tell you things." Prior to this I argued with that angel, I didn't think he was real. Yet, this was after I stopped thinking that so much. One day he has written to me: "You have leaned all you were supposed to" What I learned from God really but through him, is that most people on this world, who are just and right, where both words mean the same thing, he said, are in fact so Good with God, that they can do no more for themselves with God, to help them, anymore. I also found out, that a person was sent by God to this world, working acctually for God, but was not really that religious. I was stunned, and a litte pleased.~
Now one day, with a graduate student, who always thanke me for getting him though Grad school, in place of me going through Grad school, I had to tell him to knock it off, as the real reason I gave up my Ph.D. attempt for him, was because he had no wisdom, and I was hoping he would get some. Today, that man, ever misunderstanding me, is heading up a lab, and he is the director of research there. One day, I happen across him and he wants to talk to me, yet it is I who was then sent in by God to do something for him. I told him of what that is. Hopefully I told him also of how he cannot know God, and yet he still can be working for God totally.
I will not tell you what I was ~sent in by God to do for him.~ but after it was all over, I knew why. This man, cannot even concieve that anyone is immoral or dihsonest. He cannot. He can't because none of those Qualities, are resident in him. Then I knew, why God sent me in. It was for me and for him. It was for me to know that people totally acceptable to God, can also know pricisely nothing about God, and even believe in what Philosophers say, and push those points.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Hi,
But this is still for Josh. We are to submit to our leaders. You did not read the Catechism in context.

See post #3. I do not disagree with the concept of authority or submission. I disagree with the exclusion of accountability and responsibility. See post # 3.

Yes, the latest edition of the Catechism of the RCC itself for it itself DOES designate it itself as the infallible/unaccountable, all-authoritarian One to whom all are to submit/obey - as unto God. See CCC # 87 for example. It not only misleads all concerning the Scripture but then uses that to insist that when it itself individually speaks, ERGO GOD IS - and thus is to get God-like submission/obedience. This is fundamental to Catholicism, as we all know.

See post # 3. I did not frame that as a Catholic (or Muslim) thing - CATHOLICS have done that.

Yet, that Scripture also says to listen to what the Civilian authorities say because those laws also come from God. (Romans 13 1-5).

See post #3. It's not absolute. And while it could be argued that Mr. Obama is the most authoritative man on the planet, he is not God and he does not get (OR ASK) for such authority, power, lordship (he's not a DICTATOR). I think you are simply doing what post # 3 is about.... confusing authority with dictatorship.

You want to draw a line between obedience to Mr. Obama and to the RCC Denomination.... but Mr. Obama does not claim that when HE ALONE speaks, ergo GOD in heaven above must agree with him. He is not saying that obedence to HIM ALONE is the same as obedience to GOD Himself. I think you are missing the whole point. See post # 3.


Curious: have you studied any of the "cults" on this point?




Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Hi,

I am going to tell much here, in hopes of making CaliforniaJosh feel wonderful. And I am so hoping that he is an engineering student.

Why talk behind my back?

Why do you "so hope" I'm specifically "an engineering student?"

Short form: God has us all do different things for him, but it is still God, assigning one to do this and another to do that.

Of course, God never told the RCC to do anything (at least that we all have a record of).

And God told us - over and over and over - to beware of false teachers, be on guard for those who teach wrongly, to test the teachers - and He never exempted the specific, exclusive, singular, unique, individual RC Denomination. God NEVER stated, "When the individual, specific RC Denomination speaks - ergo I am, and it and it itself exclusively gets a pass from truthfulness, responsibility, accountability and all my warnings and instructions, but just it...." See post # 3.


As for the rest of your post, in the USA we have the Rule of Law and NO ONE is given a pass on responsibility or accountability, NO ONE among us is simply submitted to like God - and thus given a pass on responsibility. I thank you have the USA confused with the ancient Roman army. See post #3.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I cannot throw Paul's words out.

I have not. I just have not thrown out all the commands to beware of false teachers, to test teachers, to be on guard for those who teach wrongly.

And I'm disagreeing with your equating of authority with dictatorship.

And I sense that the TRUE TEACHER welcomes the light and comes into the light, insists on accountability, because for the TRUE TEACHER, truth matters rather than the unmitigated power of self alone to lord it over others who passively submit. The true teacher desires truth to prevail (not the power of self) and is confident that God's truth will prevail.

And that the FALSE TEACHER hides from the light, denies the light, rejects accountability (in the sole case of self alone), and builds around self HUGE, THICK, TALL walls of egoism, self-centeredness, self-glorification, insisting that SELF is so special, so enormously powerful as to exempt self alone from accountability, responsibility.... all must SUBMIT to SELF ALONE as unto God Himself because what matters to the false teacher is the power and lordship of self.

This is also Ph.D. candidate type of material.

I already have my Ph.D.

I don't see what that has to do with anything I posted or the issue at hand.




Pax


- Josiah

 

[barryatlake]

Josiah, the Catholic Church is formed on the Apostles and all of Christ's authority was passed on only to His Apostolic Church which is Catholic / Apostolic. Simple enough to understand. Why do you refuse the true fact, as per bible, that Jesus formed His Church on his apostles with the authority to ''bind and loose" ? And, NO, the Pope does not tell God what to do, please stop writing as Chick Publication.

 

[katerinah1947]

See post #3. I do not disagree with the concept of authority or submission.
.....Okay....

I disagree with the exclusion of accountability
....How would that look to you.....

and responsibility.
.....How would that look toyou.

See post # 3.
.....Your logic fell apart there. Are you putting forth some ideas only for discussion, so that you can gather information???? Otherwise, for you to fail, where you failed, either show me how you did not fail, or give me a reason I should follow flawed logic.......

Yes, the latest edition of the Catechism of the RCC itself for it itself DOES designate it itself as the infallible/unaccountable,
....If you are right cool. Pleass give me those, as I will double check you. .....

all-authoritarian One to whom all are to submit/obey - as unto God.


See CCC # 87 for example.
..... You did not and do not take that in context. Why?.....


It not only misleads all concerning the Scripture but then uses that to insist that when it itself individually speaks, ERGO GOD IS - and thus is to get God-like submission/obedience. This is fundamental to Catholicism, as we all know.
....All things from flawed logic are not to be used. ......

See post # 3. I did not frame that as a Catholic (or Muslim) thing - CATHOLICS have done that.
.... No I have done that with your words. It is you who seem to be pushing the Muslim objective. It is why I think you are really a Muslim masquerading as a Chritian. .....




See post #3.
.... Must corect your flawed position. ......
It's not absolute. And while it could be argued that Mr. Obama is the most authoritative man on the planet, he is not God and he does not get (OR ASK) for such authority, power, lordship (he's not a DICTATOR). I think you are simply doing what post # 3 is about.... confusing authority with dictatorship.

You want to draw a line
....flawed......

between obedience to Mr. Obama and to the RCC Denomination.... but Mr. Obama does not claim that when HE ALONE speaks, ergo GOD in heaven above must agree with him. He is not saying that obedence to HIM ALONE is the same as obedience to GOD Himself. I think you are missing the whole point. See post # 3.

....still flawed....


Curious: have you studied any of the "cults" on this point?
.....Off topic......



Pax
.... I am certain almost you don't mean that.....


- Josiah

Hi,
You are still not doing well. I see where you state you have a Ph.D. This kind of thinking is normally not allowed there.
...Katherina., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

I have not.
....Enlighten me then, how you have not. .....


I just have not thrown out all the commands to beware of false teachers, to test teachers, to be on guard for those who teach wrongly.
.... Off topic of Pauls Words. ......


And I'm disagreeing with your equating of authority with dictatorship.
....Wow, where did this come from. And you have a Ph.D. Amazing. ......

And I sense that the TRUE TEACHER welcomes the light and comes into the light, insists on accountability, because for the TRUE TEACHER, truth matters rather than the unmitigated power of self alone to lord it over others who passively submit.
..... Passively submit. Where did that come from and you are changing subjects again... .....

The true teacher desires truth to prevail (not the power of self) and is confident that God's truth will prevail.
....With the subject now shifted, and you say you are no Muslim. How can that be, when you do this so well. ......

And that the FALSE TEACHER hides from the light, denies the light, rejects accountability (in the sole case of self alone), and builds around self HUGE, THICK, TALL walls of egoism, self-centeredness, self-glorification, insisting that SELF is so special, so enormously powerful as to exempt self alone from accountability, responsibility.... all must SUBMIT to SELF ALONE as unto God Himself because what matters to the false teacher is the power and lordship of self.
.....Totally off topic now. Totally......






I already have my Ph.D.
....Great. ......

I don't see what that has to do with anything I posted or the issue at hand.
....It doesn't. You brougt up the subject. Again, a normal way of speaking by some, and so off topic. .....




Pax
Still don't believe you.


- Josiah

Hi,
Wow, can you go off topic, and be confusing. You are amazing.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Josiah, the Catholic Church is formed on the Apostles and all of Christ's authority was passed on only to His Apostolic Church which is Catholic / Apostolic. Simple enough to understand. Why do you refuse the true fact, as per bible, that Jesus formed His Church on his apostles with the authority to ''bind and loose" ? And, NO, the Pope does not tell God what to do, please stop writing as Chick Publication.

Who are you to say who Christ`s church are What is visable is NOT what is seen by the invisable, surely you must know that.