Submission.

[katerinah1947]

Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble.
....Okay.....

Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing.
.....Sure. It is this. God did our will. .......

1 Peter 3:8-9

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

....Only when they are wrong. Only then. ......

So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed.
....Okay....

Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly.
.....Hmmmmm.......

Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock.
......Hmmmmm......
And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
......Okay .......
1 Peter 5:1-4

Likewise, you younger members,
....Okay.....

be subject to the presbyters.
......Okay......

And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: God opposes the proud but bestows favour on the humble.
....Okay......

1 Peter 5:5

To try and get back on topic. I am posting this. I will also post as though someone wrote to me about Romans 13 1-5

Romans 13:1-5King James Version (KJV)

13 Let every
....Every. No wiggle room here......

soul
....Thats us, even The Pope.........

be subject unto the higher powers.
.....Okay....

For there is no power but of God:
.....Okay........

the powers that be are ordained of God.
.....Okay........

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:
.....Okay.......

and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
.....Okay........

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works,
.....Wow........

but to the evil.
....Okay......

Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power?
....If I am evil, yes. Yes I will be..........

do that which is good,
....Okay.......

and thou shalt have praise of the same:
....Okay......

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good.
....Great The Roman Government is the minister of God for good. Great.....

But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid;
.....Okay......

for he beareth not the sword in vain:
....Ouch Capital Punishment. ..........

for he is the minister of God,
.....Okay.......

a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
....If I wasn't scared before. I am now..........

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject,
.....Okay I hear you..........

not only for wrath,
........ ...........

but also for conscience sake.
.....Okay.......

King James Version (KJV)
by Public Domain

This is also true. It counters much of what you say, CaliforniaJosh. It does. Yet, you talk as though they do not.
...Katie., .... .

 

[MoreCoffee]

Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble. Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:8-9

Can you be a Christian and refuse to submit to the presbyters (priests) in the church?

So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 1 Peter 5:1-4

Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: God opposes the proud but bestows favour on the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

To try and get back on topic.
...

I'm not sure what that doctored version of the original post in your reply was about but I put the unaltered original post in the above quote so that it isn't misrepresented. Since it was the first post in this thread it is not a reply to any other post in this thread. Let's try to keep a proper sense of proportion, please, and deal with the topic under discussion without altering reality to something harmful to the topic's proper development.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Who are you to say who Christ`s church are What is visable is NOT what is seen by the invisable, surely you must know that.

I had never even heard the terms "visible" and "invisible" for Churches until I came on CF.........

Coloss 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5603395-40/
My Problem with the Invisible Church

Originally Posted by tadoflamb

It's invisible. I can't see it.
​

Originally Posted by TigerBunny

Turn on the "Light".
​

Originally Posted by WarriorAngel Yea invisibility is hard to see, but it is there.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

That's a good one Kyuk,yuk,yuk


This also reminds me of the key texts used by Catholics to teach apostolic succession from Peter, " I cant see it either.​

.

The Visible Vs. The Invisible Church

What do we mean when we make the distinction between the visible and invisible church? And what is the reason for this distinction? Starting around the 4th century - the expression "Visible Church" was refered to by theologians, not to a building, but to the members on the rolls of a local church. In other words, all persons who are members of a local church are considered to be a part of the visible church.

On the other hand, the invisible church refers to those persons who have actually been regenerated or quickened by the Holy Sprit, God's elect or true believers. Augustine referred to the church as a mixed body, a visible people, but this people has both tares and wheat, as described by Jesus. In other words, there is no such thing as a perfect church, and there will always people in the church there with bad motives or are there for the wrong reason. There will always be people who claim to love Christ but whose heart is far from Him. Many, Jesus says, will say on that day, did we not do this and that in your name? Jesus wil then say, "I never knew you".

These are descriptions of some people now sitting in your local church and Jesus says of them that he "never knew them!!!" Some persons are in church for show, to be seen by men as pious, others perhaps for a social club or to show of their ability to wax eloquent when discussing theology. These persons hearts are completely invisible to us, but of course, they are not invisible to God and only He can know who is truly regenerate, so we must be generous in our judgements.

.

 

[katerinah1947]

I'm not sure what that doctored version of the original post in your reply was about but I put the unaltered original post in the above quote so that it isn't misrepresented. Since it was the first post in this thread it is not a reply to any other post in this thread. Let's try to keep a proper sense of proportion, please, and deal with the topic under discussion without altering reality to something harmful to the topic's proper development.

Hi,
I was responding to each line item and each thought, that you posted. And I just used that to try and get back on topic. I also Put in Romans 13 1-5. Sorry if it is a confusion. I was trying to show, at least for me, how submission as CaliforniaJosh calls obeying the church, is something I agree to. I also put in Romans 13 1-5, and commented on each line, for there Paul tells us, to submit to those authorities, as in doing that, we are really submitting to God.
CaliforniaJosh, seems to say, he is the highest authority in all matters. He also has some way of talking about submission, to change it from the Biblical meaning to some human meaning, when even in his reference source, that is not stated, in his way.
I still stand by my statement. When I was younger, I submitted. When I am older I also submit, but sometimes I submit to correction of the ones in error, even though they be priests, ministers, or parishioners, some of the time. I think that is also scriptural somewhere to do that. And there are stories of those who have done that and are female, yet were treated by God very nicely, for their correct actions. I also subscribe to no female being a priest, nor any female usurping what belongs to a male.
If males, were perfect scripturally, then I could say nothing ever, but ask questions, to clarify what I don't know. Yet, males from Adam's time have made errors. Adam was not fooled, Eve was. Adam just chose Eve, over God. We women since then, are suspect of all men, as that was their sin, then. Men sometimes choose thier wives mistakes, over what is right with God.
Thus, women speak up, when males are wrong.
LOVE,
....Katherina., .... .

 

[sunlover1]

Josiah, the Catholic Church is formed on the Apostles and all of Christ's authority was passed on only to His Apostolic Church which is Catholic / Apostolic. Simple enough to understand. Why do you refuse the true fact, as per bible, that Jesus formed His Church on his apostles with the authority to ''bind and loose" ? And, NO, the Pope does not tell God what to do, please stop writing as Chick Publication.

He has a different biblical view than you do, that's why.
I disagree with what you just wrote as well.
The Spirit of God, and the manifestation of the Spirit, and the authority given by God to His people, was not exclusive to the apostles.
This authority is for all of us to use freely as He wills.
Praise God!

 

[barryatlake]

sunlover1, sorry to tell you but you are wrong and you haven't any verses or passages to endorsed your church, be it implicit or explicit, you can not change the truth, truth does not contradict truth. Jesus established his Church (Matt. 16:18), and today there are some 28,000 + different denominations, with new ones appearing at the rate of five per month.

Was this our Lord's intent? Clearly not ( John 17:21-22), although he often predicted divisions and false teaching ( Matt. 24:4-14) as well as eventual unity ( John 10:16). If we are objective in seeking the truth, then, history, reason, and Scripture will all supply clear evidence to let us see, "which church is his Church."

For instance, it is useful to see what the early writers believed. Since Christian teachings are almost 2,000 years old, if a modern theory such as "once saved, always saved" can't be traced historically back through the centuries to the time of the early Church, how can it be authentic?

Catholics agree that Jesus is the founder and cornerstone of the True Church, which had its "birth" on Pentecost. Apart from Jesus, we can do nothing! Jesus chose to establish an enduring Church and gave its earthly leaders authority to bind, loose, and make decisions (Matt. 16:18; 18:18). Jesus told his apostles that listening to their teaching was listening to him (Luke 10:16).

We see in Acts and Paul's letters how that authority (Acts 1:15-26, 6:6; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6; Titus 1:5) and true teachings (2 Thess. 2:15, 3:6) were handed on to other worthy men, who were ordained and set apart by the laying on of hands.

The point of referring to the age of church buildings is that the True Church should have older structures than churches that have been started by men. The age of a church's buildings is a simple test to indicate how old a denomination and its beliefs are, and it is suggested by Galatians 1:6-8 and Matt. 16:18, 28:20.

If we are seeking God's will, an example, Mary should be a source of Christian unity, not division. Catholics believe Jesus is the head, and no official Church document deifies or encourages worship of Mary. Catholics fulfill the prophecy of Luke 1:48. Does your church?

 

[Rick Otto]

... Adam was not fooled, Eve was. Adam just chose Eve, over God. We women since then, are suspect of all men, as that was their sin, then. Men sometimes choose thier wives mistakes, over what is right with God.
Thus, women speak up, when males are wrong.
LOVE,
....Katherina., .... .

Yes,... fooled.

The Fox has inspected the henhouse and declared it safe!
We can rest assured in an unquestionably simple understanding of who's in charge.

 

[barryatlake]

God is in charge of everything including His Apostolic Authoritative Teaching Church on earth. We must obey submission to that which God gives authority i.e. church of [ Matt.16:16-18, 28:18-20.

 

[Rick Otto]

God is in charge of everything including His Apostolic Authoritative Teaching Church on earth. We must obey submission to that which God gives authority i.e. church of [ Matt.16:16-18, 28:18-20.

Then you need to have 12 popes because He gave the bind/loose authority to all twelve (Matt 18:18)

 

[barryatlake]

All 12 were not Popes. only one was Pope.

 

[Rick Otto]

All 12 were not Popes. only one was Pope.

All twelve were given the power.
All twelve.

Matt 18:18

 

[barryatlake]

Rick. Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds His church on Peter only.

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.

 

[Rick Otto]

Not all mentions of Peter are positive affirmations of his leadership qualities.
The church is not built on Peter. All twelve apostles are considered the foundation, with Jesus as the cornerstone. Jesus is the chief apostle, not Peter.

 

[sunlover1]

All twelve were given the power.
All twelve.

Matt 18:18

And who was this written to?

And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19"Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

And who was this written to?

And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19"Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

Isnt it to the appointed 70 that were given authoritative power over the enemy, which imo is what we as individuals are on this earth to accomplish.
The bold is the invisable church.

Luke 10:19-24
19 See, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing will hurt you.
20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Jesus Rejoices
21 At that same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
23 Then turning to the disciples, Jesus said to them privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see!
24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.”

 

[sunlover1]

Isnt it to the appointed 70 that were given authoritative power over the enemy, which imo is what we as individuals are on this earth to accomplish.
The bold is the invisable church.

Of course we are!
And this is the passage i was going to post too!! lol (Luke 10)

Luke 10:19-24
19 See, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing will hurt you.
20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Jesus Rejoices
21 At that same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
23 Then turning to the disciples, Jesus said to them privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see!
24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.”

[/QUOTE]
Amen!
We're in a real battle, but many have no idea what that means and so they
have no idea why we ALL need this authority, let alone how to use it.
Much of churchdom seems focused on "man" and it's only because of poor
teaching/teachers.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Of course we are!
And this is the passage i was going to post too!! lol (Luke 10)


Amen!
We're in a real battle, but many have no idea what that means and so they
have no idea why we ALL need this authority, let alone how to use it.
Much of churchdom seems focused on "man" and it's only because of poor
teaching/teachers.

Hence also the real answer to the question of submission is that the enemy is subject to those in the authoritative position of His disciples

 

[sunlover1]

Hence also the real answer to the question of submission is that the enemy is subject to those in the authoritative position of His disciples

Amen.
Gosh, we ALL have that same Spirit in us that raised Christ from the dead.
Co-laborers with God!

 

[Root of Jesse]

Not all mentions of Peter are positive affirmations of his leadership qualities.
The church is not built on Peter. All twelve apostles are considered the foundation, with Jesus as the cornerstone. Jesus is the chief apostle, not Peter.

Baloney. Just because someone is human doesn't mean he's not a good leader. Heck, all the apostles did the same things Peter did. But they DO speak as a body, with Peter as the head.

 

[Root of Jesse]

All twelve were given the power.
All twelve.

Matt 18:18

Yes, over their particular flocks. Only one was extended the power over the universal Church.