Submission.

[MoreCoffee]

Let's return to the thread topic. Submission. And the question raised in the original post.

 

[tz620q]

Let's return to the thread topic. Submission. And the question raised in the original post.

When I reread the OP, it struck me that the basis for submission is humility. Is it any wonder that in this anti-authoritarian time when humility is seen as being naive and no longer a virtue but a vice practised only by the feeble-minded that we have so many who see submission as being surrender to something outside their own control.

Romans 13:2-7
"Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

When I reread the OP, it struck me that the basis for submission is humility. Is it any wonder that in this anti-authoritarian time when humility is seen as being naive and no longer a virtue but a vice practised only by the feeble-minded that we have so many who see submission as being surrender to something outside their own control.

Romans 13:2-7
"Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

What is the RCC submitting to when it declares it itself the sole, authoritarian interpreter of Scipture, the sole and authoritarian arbiter, the sole Voice of God, the one what when itself speaks, God therefore speaks? When it directs all to it itself uniquely and individually, what is it submitting to?

And how is it itself insisting that it itself is all-powerful, that it itself is the one all must obey and submit to, that it itself is the Mouth of God, that it itself in the Infallible One, that it itself is Authoritative One, how does that overwhelm you as HUMILITY on its part?


"And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:35-45 ESV)

 

[tz620q]

What is the RCC submitting to when it declares it itself the sole, authoritarian interpreter of Scipture, the sole and authoritarian arbiter, the sole Voice of God, the one what when itself speaks, God therefore speaks? When it directs all to it itself uniquely and individually, what is it submitting to?

And how is it itself insisting that it itself is all-powerful, that it itself is the one all must obey and submit to, that it itself is the Mouth of God, that it itself in the Infallible One, that it itself is Authoritative One, how does that overwhelm you as HUMILITY on its part?

You do realize that this peculiar obsession of yours to decry the Pope and the Magisterium of a church that you never belonged to while ignoring all efforts to come to common ground on a topic speaks volumes. You did not want to submit to the Catholic church and so left while in RCIA, well and good. You are not bound to its dogma or the Pope. But the topic that you keep changing back to the Catholic church ITSELF is one of authority and should we as Christians submit and who should be this authority. Why not spend some electrons talking about this instead of stating a stance that you have spent literally thousands of posts on?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let's keep to the topic in the original post and not stray into fights about churches and denominations, please.

 

[tz620q]

Let's keep to the topic in the original post and not stray into fights about churches and denominations, please.

Sorry, I should be humble enough to take these stings with ascetism. As OrthodoxyUSA used to say, "God forgive me".

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sorry, I should be humble enough to take these stings with anonymity. As OrthodoxyUSA used to say, "God forgive me".

He was quite good at times. I miss him.

In the end we all have to submit to somebody; at the last judgement it will be impossible not to submit to God.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In the end we all have to submit to somebody; at the last judgement it will be impossible not to submit to God.

Who/what (other than God - as arbitrated by the RCC itself alone) does the RCC submit to in CCC 87?




.

 

[tz620q]

He was quote good at times. I miss him.

In the end we all have to submit to somebody; at the last judgement it will be impossible not to submit to God.

Truly, I led a bible study on the Book of Wisdom. 125-160 years before Christ and they already had the concept of God ordaining kings and leaders with God-given authority. See Wisdom chapter 6 for more on this. Before that you only have to see the call of Samuel leading to the call of David to see the progression from God ordaining men to do prophetic work to those men, through the power of the Spirit, ordaining kings. Until modern nationalism supplanted monarchies, the divine right to rule was just part of the paradigm. Now that paradigm has changed. It went from divine right under monarchies, to Providence of God under nations, to my own divine right to choose my own authorities under individualism.

 

[katerinah1947]

Who/what (other than God - as arbitrated by the RCC itself alone) does the RCC submit to in CCC 87?




.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The dogmas of the faith

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

To my knowledge both Mark 9 38-42, and Romans 13 1-5, are not followed by the church.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The dogmas of the faith

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

To my knowledge both Mark 9 38-42, and Romans 13 1-5, are not followed by the church.

Yup, the RCC just looks to itself.

1) The RCC's own current "Tradition" as it itself individually chooses, defines and interprets.... PLUS EQUALLY AND INSEPARABLE....

2. The unique Scripture of the RCC itself as hidden in the heart of it itself and as intepreted infallibly by it itself alone (CCC 85, 113).... PLUS EQUALLY AND INSEPARABLY....

3. The Leadership of it itself alone as chosen by it itself along from among the clergy of it itself alone that are pledged to uphold the teachings and claims of it itself alone.

Yup. It submits to nothing. But itself. It looks in on place: the mirror. Then boasts, "Hey, I think I look like ME!!!!"

But actually, even this is less than it seems. Because the "three legged stool" is for SOURCING, not norming. In terms of accountability, it is not accountable to anything, everything is accountable to it itself. Insists it itself. For it itself alone.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[SpyderByte]

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

Yeah gonna stop you here, the RCC defines what is scripture, what is dogma and what is tradition. So how is one under that which one defines itself? Short answer: they aren't.

 

[katerinah1947]

Yup, the RCC just looks to itself.

1) The RCC's own current "Tradition" as it itself individually chooses, defines and interprets.... PLUS EQUALLY AND INSEPARABLE....

2. The unique Scripture of the RCC itself as hidden in the heart of it itself and as intepreted infallibly by it itself alone (CCC 85, 113).... PLUS EQUALLY AND INSEPARABLY....

3. The Leadership of it itself alone as chosen by it itself along from among the clergy of it itself alone that are pledged to uphold the teachings and claims of it itself alone.

Yup. It submits to nothing. But itself. It looks in on place: the mirror. Then boasts, "Hey, I think I look like ME!!!!"

But actually, even this is less than it seems. Because the "three legged stool" is for SOURCING, not norming. In terms of accountability, it is not accountable to anything, everything is accountable to it itself. Insists it itself. For it itself alone.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

The fact that they may not follow Romans 13 1-5, nor Mark 9 38-42, does not set you up as their judge, for would you have anything really apart from what they have given us.
To have some errors, such as dirt, does not mean one should discard the baby.
Can you please for me tell me what your beef is with the Catholic Church or with any church you belong to?
Churches, things that are bad, things that are good all have something in common. It is knowledge of God, each one gives you that.
What is your complaint? What?
LOVE,
...Katherina. .... .

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

would you have anything really apart from what they have given us.

I'm not too sure WHAT exactly you think the current bishops and pope of the singular, individual RC Denomination "gave" me. Or you. But that seems entirely off topic.

What is your complaint?

See post # 3. But it's not a complaint, it's a reply to the opening post.

And yes, I DO think the point raised - that the RCC demands we all submit to something other than just ourselves - well, it's a bit hypocritical since it only submits to itself. Insisting all do the opposite of what it does. But a side-point, to be sure.

And yes, I DO think it... well.... entertaining for the RCC to rebuke all for insisting that self is the sole, authoritarian interpreter of Scripture when it's actually the only denomination on that planet that does that (CCC 85, etc). But again, a side point.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[katerinah1947]

Yeah gonna stop you here,
....Okay you did.....

the RCC defines
....How so.....

what is scripture,
....Is it different than the Old and New Testament.....

what is dogma
....Okay....

and what is tradition.
....Okay.....

So how is one
....Who are the ones......

under that which one
....I take it this is the RCC to you....

defines itself?
....They didn't define scripture. They defined what was scripture....

Short answer:
....Okay....


they aren't.
....You are not to clear to me here. Is this your opinion?.....

Hi,
I am having total trouble almost understanding you. If I get you right, "A nefarious organization, set upon the destruction of the world, has hi-jacked Jesus and is doing their utmost to say He is not real. It is seen in their poor translations of scripture, changing to match their political goals, and then they have the audacity, to add habits, which they call trasdition, that again, subverts God and subverts Jesus, leading everyone away from God."
Is that what you are saying?
LOVE,
...Kate., .... .

 

[Devorim]

It is your duty to be not ignorant of who and what you submit to, and as you are well aware, the office doesn't guarantee the integrity of the person holding it.

Indeed. I learned the hard lesson that just because I am, for most of a lifetime, nearly completely surrounded by people who are in submission to a particular group, this does not make them right, and perhaps I should not follow their example, no matter what. Thank G-d, He opened my eyes.

I was there for 50.5 years but where I now worship for 16+ years, and my eyes are constantly open. Submission to the wrong leadership brings no praise, no benefit.

 

[katerinah1947]

I'm not too sure WHAT exactly you think the current bishops and pope of the singular, individual RC Denomination "gave" me. Or you. But that seems entirely off topic.

..... ????? .....



See post # 3. But it's not a complaint, it's a reply to the opening post.

..... Okay I read it. What a mess of ideas. Some blatantly wrong. I am glad you went to college. It is time to test all you learned. Have you tried yet to prove your ideas, or the prof's ideas are wrong yet? If you did not, still you are not educated enough. You are not. ......

And yes, I DO think the point raised - that the RCC demands we all submit to something other than just ourselves
..... Yes, submit to God, and you object to this. So, did Satan. What is your point?......

- well, it's a bit hypocritical since it only submits to itself.
....Balogna. You failed the class. They submit to God, and The Bible. .....

Insisting all do the opposite of what it does. But a side-point, to be sure.
..... I am seriously doubting your ability to think here. College is supposed to teach you that also. Memory can get you through, but those are the most dangerous graduates, as they know nothing but say much. .......

And yes, I DO think it... well.... entertaining for the RCC to rebuke all for insisting that self is the sole, authoritarian interpreter of Scripture
.... Okay .....

when it's actually the only denomination on that planet that does that
....So what? .....

(CCC 85, etc). But again, a side point.
.....Totally.....



Thank you.
.... I don't think you are thaning me now. You are probably upset with me.


Pax


- Josiah

Hi,
Dearest,
You are so off the point. I have the Bible, because of that Church, and no, to you I say, they did not write that book. I have much from them. Never would I, nor never could I, just like you throw all that is good away, for a few errors. I also if you are not merely argumentative, or have a hidden agenda, am not willing to throw you away either. The choice is yours.
LOVE, for real,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[katerinah1947]

I'm not too sure WHAT exactly you think the current bishops and pope of the singular, individual RC Denomination "gave" me. Or you. But that seems entirely off topic.

..... ????? .....



See post # 3. But it's not a complaint, it's a reply to the opening post.

..... Okay I read it. What a mess of ideas. Some blatantly wrong. I am glad you went to college. It is time to test all you learned. Have you tried yet to prove your ideas, or the prof's ideas are wrong yet? If you did not, still you are not educated enough. You are not. ......

And yes, I DO think the point raised - that the RCC demands we all submit to something other than just ourselves
..... Yes, submit to God, and you object to this. So, did Satan. What is your point?......

- well, it's a bit hypocritical since it only submits to itself.
....Balogna. You failed the class. They submit to God, and The Bible. .....

Insisting all do the opposite of what it does. But a side-point, to be sure.
..... I am seriously doubting your ability to think here. College is supposed to teach you that also. Memory can get you through, but those are the most dangerous graduates, as they know nothing but say much. .......

And yes, I DO think it... well.... entertaining for the RCC to rebuke all for insisting that self is the sole, authoritarian interpreter of Scripture
.... Okay .....

when it's actually the only denomination on that planet that does that
....So what? .....

(CCC 85, etc). But again, a side point.
.....Totally.....



Thank you.
.... I don't think you are thanking me now. You are probably upset with me.


Pax


- Josiah

Hi,
Dearest,
You are so off the point. I have the Bible, because of that Church, and no, to you I say, they did not write that book. I have much from them. Never would I, nor never could I, just like you throw all that is good away, for a few errors. I also if you are not merely argumentative, or have a hidden agenda, am not willing to throw you away either. The choice is yours.
LOVE, for real,
...Katherina., .... .

 

[Rick Otto]

If nobody minds, I'm gonna give all the glory to God.

 

[Rick Otto]

...Submission to the wrong leadership brings no praise, no benefit.