Submission and obedience.

[com7fy8]

Women need to feel loved by their husbands and husbands need to feel respected. (Ephesians 5:33)

Well, a man can have an egotistical way of wanting respect. And this is not good . . . not denying himself and taking up his cross daily and following Jesus.

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

So, if I am depending on my wife for respect, this can help to keep me weak so I can give in to anti-love things like bitterness and angry reacting and frustration and depression and arguing and complaining.

He needs to be unconditional in his love so he does not get bent out of shape if she in some way does not respect him >

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved." (2 Corinthians 12:15 > New King James translation)

Jesus says to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39) and to bless those who curse us (Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:28); so if I can get upset and downcast and even bitter because my lady does not respect me in some way, this is my fault, and because of my own weakness. So I am disobeying how Jesus says to love, and God's word says "be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might" (in Ephesians 6:10).

And, of course, while I am staying weak in what is not God's way of love, I can easily misunderstand my lady and feel she is disrespecting me, right while she isn't!!

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them." (Colossians 3:19)

So, if I even start to have stuff in me that is getting me bitter . . . already I have this as proof of how I am wrong, somehow; and so right away I need to get right with God . . . first > not first trying to get her to do what I suppose she needs to do.

And after God has me submissive to Him in His peace > Colossians 3:15 > now I can see her the way God's peace has me understanding her, and in God's peace I can be creative and cheerful and encouraging; then I might ask her why she has done something a certain way, and be surprised at how she is thinking in terms of compassion . . . versus trying to please my ego!

But in case she really is wrong, I can first need to be prayerful in God's peace, so I can be encouraging with her by being her good example >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

I mean . . . if I love her, I care about her being in God's love and goodness of peace and joy. So, when she starts to get worried or arguing or negative, I have compassion for her because of how she really is wrong > I don't care about her being my puppet; I want her to obey me by doing what Jesus has her doing with His rest for her soul; so if she starts complaining and raising her voice and worrying and hurrying and scurrying, I need to be how she needs to become, so my example can help her, and she obeys me by obeying my good example.

Therefore, then, before I can rightly expect her to be submissive to me, I need to be submissive to God so He has us going the same way . . . because both of us are submissive to God in His peace. And she obeys me by doing what I say > submit to God in His peace, or else you are not obeying me Jesus says if we obey Him, "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29)

But there are women who disobey how Jesus would care for us and guide us in rest for our souls. And their husbands who love them tell them to submit to Jesus so they have rest for their souls; yet, they keep on wasting themselves because they have an un-subject character, not capable of submission to Jesus and not capable of mutual submission in a close sharing and caring relationship >

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

And they will scream how they don't want to be slaves, when really they are in slavery to how their own egos are not able to obey God in His peace.

But our basic Christian calling includes >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, there are women who abuse themselves . . . by even trusting and obeying their worry which so lies to them and abuses and degrades them. They accept such deep and cruel abuse, while screaming how no man is going to make them a slave!!

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, a man can have an egotistical way of wanting respect. And this is not good . . . not denying himself and taking up his cross daily and following Jesus.

That would be like saying women have an "egotistical way" of wanting children.
A man without respect is like a barren woman. But you say he only wants it for egotistical reasons? Do you also believe that starving children have a need for coveting food?

Perhaps if men got some respect at home they wouldn't need to be married to their job.

 

[com7fy8]

Well, a man can have an egotistical way of wanting respect. And this is not good . . . not denying himself and taking up his cross daily and following Jesus.

That would be like saying women have an "egotistical way" of wanting children.

Please note that I say "can" have. Likewise, ladies can have the right way or an egotistical way. There are ones said to be possessive; that would be an example.

A man without respect is like a barren woman. But you say he only wants it for egotistical reasons?

What I say is a man "can" be egotistical in how he wants respect. There is the right way and the wrong way. There are people who are about control; so they feel they are disrespected if they don't have people cow-towing to them. But that would be trying to lord themselves over others, contrary to how leaders are to relate >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

 

[Sparagmos]

The Apostle told us to love our wives and even to submit to them. Was that part of the so-called "patriarchy"?

No, obviously any teaching that isn’t patriarchal...isn’t patriarchal.

 

[Sparagmos]

Since you like to be a fruit inspector, what is your assessment of Feminism? Good fruit, or bad fruit?

Good fruit. In my lifetime so much has changed for the better as far as how I’m treated and the opportunities I have.

 

[Sparagmos]

You have a twisted view of submission and of God's word. By your interpretation, no one should preach the gospel. It can get people killed, after all. Like I said, the misuse of truth does not invalidate it.

Well, you look at all of the fruit a tree produces, and you judge whether it is mostly good or bad. There will always be some bad fruit, right? I’m not aware of anything good coming out of headship doctrine or patriarchy.

 

[bèlla]

Perhaps if men got some respect at home they wouldn't need to be married to their job.

Both are worthy of respect and good treatment. There are seasons when work may take precedence over leisure for reasons agreed on by each.

I broach the subject from a different angle. I couldn’t marry someone I didn’t respect and admire and I think expectations should be kept in check. Oftentimes a person exhibits these traits well before the altar. Its important to unpack her relational experiences and have lengthy discussions about the male influences she’s had. Both contribute to her mindset and behavior.

Disrespect is rooted in anger and a lack of trust. Combatting it requires a willingness to listen and address the schism that derailed the heart. You can’t sweep it under the rug. It festers and leads to bitterness and rejection if left unchecked.

~Bella

 

[Saint Steven]

No, obviously any teaching that isn’t patriarchal...isn’t patriarchal.

Have you considered who is at the top of your hated patriarchy?

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Saint Steven said: ↑
The Apostle told us to love our wives and even to submit to them. Was that part of the so-called "patriarchy"?

 

[Saint Steven]

Good fruit. In my lifetime so much has changed for the better as far as how I’m treated and the opportunities I have.

I would agree with that. But don't you have any concerns about what Feminism has become? (a man-hating machine)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Since you like to be a fruit inspector, what is your assessment of Feminism? Good fruit, or bad fruit?

 

[splish- splash]

What happens if we focus on the word "more". ("Give back more to the community.")
It seems to infer that you were already giving to some degree. Perhaps it is only a call to increase what you were already doing? Either by increased time spent, or resources given?

I'm still trying to figure it out. Guess the Lord will reveal more to me, when He's ready. Thankyou

 

[Saint Steven]

Went for a walk with my wise and wonderful wife of forty plus years today.
She had a great insight about how some women manipulate their husbands to get what they want as a way to work around the headship issue. They create a situation where they are actually in control but make it look like he is. And I suppose this can be done as a way to fill in a weakness in their mate, or as a way to dominate the relationship. Either way, worth mentioning.

On the other hand, too many men are more than willing to relinquish leadership in the marriage just to keep the peace. Leaving them to seek respect elsewhere.

 

[Paidiske]

Manipulation is often a besetting sin for those who are denied an honest involvement in decision-making.

Leadership, to my mind, is very, very different from headship. All of us have a capacity for leadership, and in a healthy marriage, both will exercise that capacity in ways which benefit the household.

 

[bèlla]

On the other hand, too many men are more than willing to relinquish leadership in the marriage just to keep the peace. Leaving them to seek respect elsewhere.

Leadership and headship aren’t one in the same.

Just because you’re a man doesn’t mean you’re an exemplary leader or operating in the gift. When someone excels at leadership there are clear examples of vision, strategy, finishing, and collaboration.

Leaders know how to chart a course and deliver on their promises consistently.

~Bella

 

[Saint Steven]

Leadership and headship aren’t one in the same.

Just because you’re a man doesn’t mean you’re an exemplary leader or operating in the gift. When someone excels at leadership there are clear examples of vision, strategy, finishing, and collaboration.

Leaders know how to chart a course and deliver on their promises consistently.

~Bella

I specifically said "leadership in the marriage". How is that not biblical headship?

Saint Steven said: ↑
On the other hand, too many men are more than willing to relinquish leadership in the marriage just to keep the peace. Leaving them to seek respect elsewhere.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I think we need to remember that one definition of "submit" is, "suggest an idea." And we also need to remember that the husband is called to be the leader, not the boss. There is a difference. This visual is a great illustration.

My father and my first husband both got it wrong. They both thought they were supposed to be the boss. "What I say goes. I don't care what you have to say, or how you feel about anything. I make all decisions. You don't get a vote. Now, shut up and do as I say, because I said so."

That's not even a good *parenting* style, let alone a good *marriage* style.

But if "submit" means "suggest an idea," then that means the husband is supposed to listen to his wife. After all, God told Abraham to listen to Sarah.

 

[bèlla]

I specifically said "leadership in the marriage". How is that not biblical headship?

Once more, just because you practice headship doesn’t mean you’re a good leader. There are good and bad leaders. You have to work at it to improve.

~Bella

 

[Saint Steven]

But if "submit" means "suggest an idea," then that means the husband is supposed to listen to his wife. After all, God told Abraham to listen to Sarah.

It doesn't mean that. Not in the context of a relationship.

Genesis 3:17-19
To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife
and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you,
‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Just a quick addendum to the "leader vs boss" illustration above, as it applies to my own marriage. IF my husband were not leading, if he were standing there helplessly because he didn't know in which direction to pull the load, what would I do? I think I would put him at the head of the line, then get behind him and push. To everybody else it looks like he's leading, but he and I know that I'm actually guiding him from behind. I think that would be a form of submission.

 

[Paidiske]

I specifically said "leadership in the marriage". How is that not biblical headship?

Biblical headship - as I understand it from the folks who insist on it - means "the man (husband/father) controls the household." His job is to make decisions and give instructions, and their job is to do as he says.

That's not the same as healthy leadership.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

It doesn't mean that. Not in the context of a relationship.

Genesis 3:17-19
To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife
and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you,
‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

Genesis 21:12

But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.

You know, there's a man at our church who likes to tease women by quoting the same verse you just quoted, and then saying that "the reason humanity is in trouble is because a man listened to a woman," and I don't think it's very funny.