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Featured Submission and obedience.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Aussie Pete, May 23, 2020.

  1. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why should submission and obedience be controversial? The answer is simple. Man's very nature rebels at the thought of being in submission and in obedience. The fall of man came about because of Adam's disobedience and man has been in revolt against God's authority ever since.

    Many people object to the principle of men being head of the household. It's not just women who object, many men also think it wrong. Yet it is plainly God's order. Joyce Meyer has to be one of the most successful Christian women on the planet. She teaches women to submit to their husbands. God has honoured her in that.

    Submission is not domination. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Preaching a sermon on love then beating up your wife (verbally or physically) is hypocrisy of the highest order. Lord Jesus said that the way we treat believers is the way we are treating Him.

    Submission is a safety net. If the husband messes up, God holds him responsible, not the wife. If you want the perfect example of submission and obedience, you know where to look. He is now King of Kings and Lord of Lords, highly exalted with the name above all names.

    God requires submission and obedience for very good reasons. One reason is quite simple. It goes against the self-centred egotistical nature that we inherit from Adam.

    If we want to make real progress in the Christian life, we should be seeking grace to know God's will, to do God's will and in a manner that is submissive, not sullen and resentful. To obey is indeed better than sacrifice.
     
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  2. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    Submission isn't a safety net, because if the husband does the wrong thing, and is abusive in any way, it leaves you with no recourse. You are trapped in that abusive dynamic.

    It has been well documented that men who believe they have a God-given authority over women are more likely to commit domestic violence than men who see women as their equals. It's a dangerous doctrine.

    God alone is safe to submit to totally. For humans, although we are called to a level of mutual submission, there must always be boundaries and safeguards.
     
  3. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is NOT submission. God does not command husbands to beat up and rape their wives. Anyone who claims to be a Christian and beats up his wife needs to rethink the reality of his so-called faith. We prove that we've passed from death to life when we love the brethren and that includes our spouse. The misuse of a principle does not void it.
     
  4. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    Sure, you can say "A husband shouldn't." But as long as you're simultaneously saying to the wives, "You should submit," when he does what he shouldn't, they're backed into a corner with nowhere to go.

    So that does, at least, relativise the principle. It's not absolute.
     
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  5. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As always only half of a passage is looked at.
    Yes a man is head of the house.
    He is, as that head to love his wife, how, as Christ loves the church.
    In other words I as a husband am to be self sacrificing in my love of and for my wife.
    But it goes further. The example is of Jesus, who also is part of the trinity. Is Jesus inferior to God the Father?
    Is a wife inferior to a husband because like Jesus she submits to a head.

    Marriage is a partnership, but the responsibility is the man, when things go wrong it is he who shoulders any blame.
     
  6. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    There's no Scriptural basis for this claim. Marriage isn't a way for a woman to avoid being accountable to God for her own character and conduct.
     
  7. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No wife needs submit to violence. If anyone is teaching that (I'm aware that some do) they are just plain wrong. In our fellowship we advise the woman to get out of the situation (we'll help of course) and confront the offending husband. It's been a long time since that's been required.
     
  8. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    Preaching submission in the first place helps create the problem, though.
     
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  9. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you know of Joyce Meyer? She is one of my favourite teachers. She is strong on submission, she submits to her husband in the godly way. If submission is preached correctly (and it's certainly not limited to marriage relationships) it is liberating. God has ordained order and structure. It's not bondage and slavery.
     
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  10. Franki(ncense)

    Franki(ncense) Relax! Oluwa's running the show... Supporter

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    Ok! I think my lil question suits your title.

    About submission and obedience, sometime late last year, The Lord told me to, "Give back more to the community." These were His exact words. Now the problem is, He didn't explain how it was all to happen. Up until now, I don't know what exactly He meant by that. So I thought I'd ask someone who seems more experienced in the things of God.

    Could being on here by any chance, also be classified as giving back to the community? For instance, when we converse and encourage each other as brethren with the word of God!
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Are you claiming that a wife should not submit to the authority of her husband?
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Therefore unbiblical teaching is the cure for domestic abuse? Wow. That's pretty twisted.
    As if the Bible is the cause of domestic violence.
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What happens if we focus on the word "more". ("Give back more to the community.")
    It seems to infer that you were already giving to some degree. Perhaps it is only a call to increase what you were already doing? Either by increased time spent, or resources given?
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I imagine this topic will be overrun by rabid feminists shortly. Hell hath no fury...
     
  15. XAPLTOS

    XAPLTOS New Member

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    a wife would have no obligation to submit to her husband if he was not directing her in a godly way. Christ is the head of the marriage covenant and order was established not by men but by God. If the man is not leading his wife in a godly way she is not obligated to submit to her husband because he would have taken himself out from under the direction of the Lord. This is a wonderful system where the wife receives protection and blessing from here husband. Husbands love your wife’s as Christ loves the church. It’s disorder for a wife to just dismiss Gods direction likewise for men it would be disorder to not lead in love as Christ.
     
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  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So much of this is culturally driven. No one talks about husband abuse.
     
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  17. XAPLTOS

    XAPLTOS New Member

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    headship is headship by definition and brings along with it the understanding of what leadership requires. No one said a women is “ultimately“ accountable to her husband for her character and conduct, he is not her god. She should submit to God if there is a problem with her conduct or character and allow the Lord to change her thinking just as a man should do. This would be a great example in which if the husband saw his wife struggling in an area of character or conduct he could pray for her and show an example of that love. Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church.
     
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  18. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is part of being the head of the family, part of being the one who should make the decision, to be responsible for success or failure.
     
  19. a-lily-in-the-valley

    a-lily-in-the-valley Member

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    And in context of the below, you can understand why she might need reassurance that God wouldn’t let her be punished for the failure of another?

    So the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the congregation, saying, ‘Get away from the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.’ ”
    Then Moses rose and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. And he spoke to the congregation, saying, “Depart now from the tents of these wicked men! Touch nothing of theirs, lest you be consumed in all their sins.” So they got away from around the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the door of their tents, with their wives, their sons, and their little children.

    And Moses said: “By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will. If these men die naturally like all men, or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”

    Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Then all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up also!”
    (Numbers 16:23-34, NKJV)

    (and because yes the reassurance of God’s justice really is there and I believe that posting the below means more when acknowledging the above)

    And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

    (1 Corinthians 7:13-14, NKJV)

    That passage about Korah etc was actually really challenging for me because there’s no clear explanation that the wives and children were also rebellious.

    That’s where the resolution of faith comes in, that if they truly are innocent, they will be given just judgement in the next life, and if they truly were punished, it’s because God could discern their hearts even if that isn’t spelled out.

    I’m blessed that God gave me a good husband but even so, there is a secondary level of faith. I have to be entirely confident in my relationship with God, which obviously I’m an active part of, but then also be entirely confident in his relationship with God to trust him to lead, which is legitimate faith in things I am unable to feel, only see the fruits of.

    It’s a dynamic that you are both entirely aware of yet entirely unable to participate in directly beyond prayers on behalf of another and also continuing to live the resurrected life, that the light can be seen through you. That is how truth goes.

    And that’s something to really celebrate in that it shows how amazingly God works in the silent and unseen places.

    Perfection is developed there.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  20. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    You don’t know her or how she lives behind closed doors. People often express surprise when someone they know commits a crime. “He seemed so nice” is a popular response. Appearances aren’t facts.

    ~Bella
     
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