Submission and obedience.

[Aussie Pete]

It is indeed very simple.

When people post about submission and obedience, they make it sound like being obedient and in submission to them. So it does kind of rub people the wrong way when people put themselves in God's place.

There is not one person on the forum that I know personally. How can they submit to me? I am not surprised at the reaction. The church is a body. Imagine if you decided to go to the store and your feet refused to go? Ridiculous. No more so than the body of Christ living in total independence of the other members. When the church as the body of Christ functions correctly, Lord Jesus is glorified and God's will gets done.

 

[Paidiske]

Submission is not the opposite of independence.

The church cannot function if each person operates in total independence, no. So we need to function with mutuality and shared purpose. Our submission then is not to one human person, but to the mission of God.

It is no more right for a church leader to try to control their flock, than for a husband to try to control a wife.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

There is not one person on the forum that I know personally. How can they submit to me? I am not surprised at the reaction. The church is a body. Imagine if you decided to go to the store and your feet refused to go? Ridiculous. No more so than the body of Christ living in total independence of the other members. When the church as the body of Christ functions correctly, Lord Jesus is glorified and God's will gets done.

Yeah, trusting God and following His direction, that's something you learn in intimacy with God.

When a pastor comes along and equates the will of God (in context of submission) with his interpretation of the bible, that's kind of when things go south - including family relationships.

 

[Sparagmos]

That is NOT submission. God does not command husbands to beat up and rape their wives. Anyone who claims to be a Christian and beats up his wife needs to rethink the reality of his so-called faith. We prove that we've passed from death to life when we love the brethren and that includes our spouse. The misuse of a principle does not void it.

You judge a tree by its fruit. One of the fruits of submission doctrine Is a higher rate of abuse.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Submission is not the opposite of independence.

The church cannot function if each person operates in total independence, no. So we need to function with mutuality and shared purpose. Our submission then is not to one human person, but to the mission of God.

It is no more right for a church leader to try to control their flock, than for a husband to try to control a wife.

Submission is not about control. The Head of the church is Christ. That is the ultimate source of authority. God has put authorities in the Church, primarily elders. The position of pastor hardly rates a mention in the NT. It was not the general congregation of Jerusalem that commissioned Barnabus and Paul as apostles. The Holy Spirit led the elders. The elders instructed Barnabus and Paul. They obeyed. From then on, they acted according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. They were no longer under the governance of Jerusalem. God's ordering exposes the rebellious and independent self. My co-worker in the school we have is responsible for a number of things. I defer to her in those things. In others, she defers to me. She usually hears from the Lord and I follow that leading. Sometimes we disagree. When that is the case, the responsibility falls on me.

 

[Aussie Pete]

You judge a tree by its fruit. One of the fruits of submission doctrine Is a higher rate of abuse.

Please advise almighty God that He's made a mistake. Let me know where you are. I want to be as far away as possible when you tell Him.

 

[Paidiske]

Submission is not about control.

Of course it is. That is the absolute core of it, and why it is such a problem.

 

[Blade]

If one wants to see the MANS role so to speak.. CHRIST is the best example! The man should "submit" just as much if not more then the woman does. I love the OT.. today you won't get the glory.. A WOMAN will. Praise GOD glory to Jesus.

So its easy to preach it look at others but in the end.. its not what they are doing nor our spouse.. its what are WE doing. Always bring it home. To be the example. Back to Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

You judge a tree by its fruit. One of the fruits of submission doctrine Is a higher rate of abuse.

But isn't the "submission doctrine" biblical?
Perhaps you are attacking the wrong thing here. What you call "abuse" is not a result of biblically doctrine. The Bible is not directing us to abuse anyone. Right? Let's identify the REAL culprit here.

 

[Paidiske]

But isn't the "submission doctrine" biblical?

As it's often put forward, no, it's a distortion of the Scriptural witness.

 

[Saint Steven]

As it's often put forward, no, it's a distortion of the Scriptural witness.

I think that was a valid point 20 or 30 years ago.
Seems to be an exaggeration to say "As it's often put forward" now.

Saint Steven said: ↑
But isn't the "submission doctrine" biblical?

 

[Paidiske]

I think that was a valid point 20 or 30 years ago.
Seems to be an exaggeration to say "As it's often put forward" now.

True that in real life we seem to have improved our understanding somewhat.

On CF, however, I still see dangerously distorted takes on the Scripture in this regard, often. It's why the Egalitarian forum exists; we needed one place on CF that was a refuge from all of that.

 

[Sparagmos]

But isn't the "submission doctrine" biblical?
Perhaps you are attacking the wrong thing here. What you call "abuse" is not a result of biblically doctrine. The Bible is not directing us to abuse anyone. Right? Let's identify the REAL culprit here.

The idea of female submission is older than the Bible, and yes, it causes abuse. I grew up with it. My father was emotionally abusive and my mother said she couldn’t intervene because The Bible said he was the head of the household. It’s no secret that “headship” doctrine, which stems from patriarchy, enables abuse and that many clergy and Churches have advised victims of abuse to stay with and submit to their abuser. Like I said, judge the tree by its fruit.

 

[Sparagmos]

Please advise almighty God that He's made a mistake. Let me know where you are. I want to be as far away as possible when you tell Him.

So “god says so” and I should fear his retribution for challenging him? Got it. This god sounds like an insecure adolescent.

 

[Aussie Pete]

So “god says so” and I should fear his retribution for challenging him? Got it. This god sounds like an insecure adolescent.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[Saint Steven]

The idea of female submission is older than the Bible, and yes, it causes abuse. I grew up with it. My father was emotionally abusive and my mother said she couldn’t intervene because The Bible said he was the head of the household. It’s no secret that “headship” doctrine, which stems from patriarchy, enables abuse and that many clergy and Churches have advised victims of abuse to stay with and submit to their abuser. Like I said, judge the tree by its fruit.

More misplaced blame.
Christianity brought humanity to womanhood. Prior to that women were property. The Apostle told us to love our wives and even to submit to them. Was that part of the so-called "patriarchy"?

Saint Steven said: ↑
But isn't the "submission doctrine" biblical?
Perhaps you are attacking the wrong thing here. What you call "abuse" is not a result of biblically doctrine. The Bible is not directing us to abuse anyone. Right? Let's identify the REAL culprit here.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The idea of female submission is older than the Bible, and yes, it causes abuse. I grew up with it. My father was emotionally abusive and my mother said she couldn’t intervene because The Bible said he was the head of the household. It’s no secret that “headship” doctrine, which stems from patriarchy, enables abuse and that many clergy and Churches have advised victims of abuse to stay with and submit to their abuser. Like I said, judge the tree by its fruit.

You have a twisted view of submission and of God's word. By your interpretation, no one should preach the gospel. It can get people killed, after all. Like I said, the misuse of truth does not invalidate it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Like I said, judge the tree by its fruit.

Since you like to be a fruit inspector, what is your assessment of Feminism? Good fruit, or bad fruit?

 

[Paidiske]

More misplaced blame.
Christianity brought humanity to womanhood. Prior to that women were property. The Apostle told us to love our wives and even to submit to them. Was that part of the so-called "patriarchy"?

It has taken us millennia, though, to unpack that, and that process is still unfolding. Many Christians still deny that submission in marriage ought to be mutual, and they will quote cherry-picked Scripture to justify their view.

 

[Saint Steven]

It has taken us millennia, though, to unpack that, and that process is still unfolding. Many Christians still deny that submission in marriage ought to be mutual, and they will quote cherry-picked Scripture to justify their view.

I mostly agree.
As you have said, you still see a lot of that on CF. To me it seemed like old news.

I have been married for forty years and we sorted this out pretty quickly at the beginning. And I don't recall ever having to "exert" my authority. Preferring to wait until we were in agreement. We make decisions together, submitting to one another. The Apostle told husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. (he gave his life for her) Men considering marriage should consider what that means.

With leadership comes responsibility. No one should assume to take the lead without counting the cost. Any tyrant can boss people around. (regardless of gender, or relationship) A real leader inspires respect.

Saint Steven said: ↑
More misplaced blame.
Christianity brought humanity to womanhood. Prior to that women were property. The Apostle told us to love our wives and even to submit to them. Was that part of the so-called "patriarchy"?