Submission and obedience.

[Saint Steven]

Biblical headship - as I understand it from the folks who insist on it - means "the man (husband/father) controls the household." His job is to make decisions and give instructions, and their job is to do as he says.

That's not the same as healthy leadership.

That is not my understanding of biblical headship, what you have stated is not even biblical.

 

[Saint Steven]

You know, there's a man at our church who likes to tease women by quoting the same verse you just quoted, and then saying that "the reason humanity is in trouble is because a man listened to a woman," and I don't think it's very funny.

I actually agree with you for the most part.
But as soon as I read your post that scripture came to mind.

In general, I think listening to your wife is a great idea. But what happened in the garden shows us how wrong that could go. I have often wondered what would have happened if Adam had refused the fruit after Eve ate. Would his headship have protected her, or not? The command was to Adam. It sounds as though he passed the info on to Eve and added the part about not touching it. Bad leadership.

Saint Steven said: ↑
It doesn't mean that. Not in the context of a relationship.

Genesis 3:17-19
To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife
and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you,
‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

 

[Paidiske]

That is not my understanding of biblical headship, what you have stated is not even biblical.

Yes, I know. That's why I reject "headship." It takes one word ("head") and completely twists it into a doctrine of control.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, I know. That's why I reject "headship." It takes one word ("head") and completely twists it into a doctrine of control.

I think it is wrong to blame that on the Bible.

 

[Paidiske]

I think it is wrong to blame that on the Bible.

I don't blame the Bible. I blame people's bad understanding and application of Scripture.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Personally, I don't feel comfortable with the idea of my wife being submissive or obedient. It's just not something I feel is important to distinguish.

...She will be what she will be.

 

[Sparagmos]

Have you considered who is at the top of your hated patriarchy?

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Saint Steven said: ↑
The Apostle told us to love our wives and even to submit to them. Was that part of the so-called "patriarchy"?

I’m pretty sure I’ve though about that more than most people. And I grew up studying the Bible and theology, I know what’s in it, no need to post verses for me.

 

[Sparagmos]

I would agree with that. But don't you have any concerns about what Feminism has become? (a man-hating machine)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Since you like to be a fruit inspector, what is your assessment of Feminism? Good fruit, or bad fruit?

Goodness no. Most women in my circle are feminists and none of us hate men. My favorite person in the world is a man, and one of my mentors is a man. I’ve been fortunate to have had a lot of “good” men In my life who respect me and treat me as an equal. As a female leader, I also encounter a lot of subtle sexism from men who aren’t comfortable with women in positions in power. Talking about sexism and misogyny in the world doesn’t mean I hate men.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Of course it is. That is the absolute core of it, and why it is such a problem.

Garbage. The ultimate expression of submission is Lord Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. It's just as well that the Lord Jesus knew what real submission is, or we'd all be in hell.

 

[Paidiske]

Garbage. The ultimate expression of submission is Lord Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. It's just as well that the Lord Jesus knew what real submission is, or we'd all be in hell.

Even in Gethsemane, Jesus knew that he was living out the plan and purpose of God (all three persons, including the Son) from before time. He was not acting against his own will.

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

Why should submission and obedience be controversial? The answer is simple. Man's very nature rebels at the thought of being in submission and in obedience. The fall of man came about because of Adam's disobedience and man has been in revolt against God's authority ever since.

Many people object to the principle of men being head of the household. It's not just women who object, many men also think it wrong. Yet it is plainly God's order. Joyce Meyer has to be one of the most successful Christian women on the planet. She teaches women to submit to their husbands. God has honoured her in that.

Submission is not domination. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Preaching a sermon on love then beating up your wife (verbally or physically) is hypocrisy of the highest order. Lord Jesus said that the way we treat believers is the way we are treating Him.

Submission is a safety net. If the husband messes up, God holds him responsible, not the wife. If you want the perfect example of submission and obedience, you know where to look. He is now King of Kings and Lord of Lords, highly exalted with the name above all names.

God requires submission and obedience for very good reasons. One reason is quite simple. It goes against the self-centred egotistical nature that we inherit from Adam.

If we want to make real progress in the Christian life, we should be seeking grace to know God's will, to do God's will and in a manner that is submissive, not sullen and resentful. To obey is indeed better than sacrifice.

Generally, Christians in the decadent world know nothing of endurance in surrender as it relates to Christ and the way He explicitly taught it. The Bible says we are called to innocent suffering (1 Peter 2:20-24), emptying ourselves (Philippians 2:5-8), even resisting sin unto bloodshed (Hebrews 12:2-4). Good luck getting most to carry a cross made of anything but cotton.

This kind of thing is not new or progressive but makes its cycle throughout history, as it must, until Christ returns. It will only return to God's wisdom of patriarchal rule when society collapses or Christ returns as the Patriarch of that society:

"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." (Isaiah 3:12)

 

[Aussie Pete]

Generally, Christians in the decadent world know nothing of endurance in surrender as it relates to Christ and the way He explicitly taught it. The Bible says we are called to innocent suffering (1 Peter 2:20-24), emptying ourselves (Philippians 2:5-8), even resisting sin unto bloodshed (Hebrews 12:2-4). Good luck getting most to carry a cross made of anything but cotton.

This kind of thing is not new or progressive but makes its cycle throughout history, as it must, until Christ returns. It will only return to God's wisdom of patriarchal rule when society collapses or Christ returns as the Patriarch of that society:

"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." (Isaiah 3:12)

Yes. I knew I was tossing a verbal hand grenade into the forum. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[bèlla]

I think it is wrong to blame that on the Bible.

On another thread a member is admonishing others for failing to remain in abusive relationships and enduring the suffering as mandated by God.

There are unhealthy people who are incapable of directing others without causing harm. Acknowledging its existence isn’t wrong.

~Bella

 

[Saint Steven]

On another thread a member is admonishing others for failing to remain in abusive relationships and enduring the suffering as mandated by God.

There are unhealthy people who are incapable of directing others without causing harm. Acknowledging its existence isn’t wrong.

~Bella

That isn't my objection.
If someone is doing what you claim on another thread, by all means, they should be challenged. Tell me where and I may join the battle.

My objection is tossing out the Bible in favor of current socio-political views. As if the Bible needs to conform to our culture.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I think it is wrong to blame that on the Bible.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are unhealthy people who are incapable of directing others without causing harm. Acknowledging its existence isn’t wrong.

On page one of this topic, your first post on this topic, you made an unwarranted attack on Joyce Meyer. Assuming the worst about her. As if to claim that a relationship based on biblical headship was not even possible.

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

Yes. I knew I was tossing a verbal hand grenade into the forum. Thanks for the encouragement.

There are people on this forum who will tell you that Scripture quotes in context are your opinion (which would literally require you to be an author of the Bible). But three that make a powerful point about enduring suffering innocently are:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:5-8)

"For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." (1 Peter 2:19-24)

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin." (Hebrews 12:2-4)

God is right, man is wrong. In my humble "opinion", of course...

 

[bèlla]

My objection is tossing out the Bible in favor of current socio-political views. As if the Bible needs to conform to our culture.

If memory serves we’ve discussed this in the past. I have never said I was opposed to headship for myself. I have enough comments and threads that attest to my perspective.

But I’m acknowledging (in this one) the reasons it comes easy. I can’t ignore the experiences and examples which led me to that point. If they differed I might feel otherwise.

~Bella

 

[bèlla]

On page one of this topic, your first post on this topic, you made an unwarranted attack on Joyce Meyer. Assuming the worst about her. As if to claim that a relationship based on biblical headship was not even possible.

I didn’t attack her. I like her and read her books. But I don’t know her personally. There’s an old adage which says the same. We don’t know how anyone behaves behind closed doors. That’s why the “Sunday Christian” comment is popular.

~Bella

 

[Saint Steven]

I didn’t attack her. I like her and read her books. But I don’t know her personally. There’s an old adage which says the same. We don’t know how anyone behaves behind closed doors. That’s why the “Sunday Christian” comment is popular.

~Bella

Yes, but your comment seemed to invalidate her testimony. You brushed aside the whole notion of headship, claiming no one knows what goes on behind closed doors.

 

[Tolworth John]

And in context of the below, you can understand why she might need reassurance that God wouldn’t let her be punished for the failure of another?

That is no part of a Christian marriage.
The husband is to love his wife with the same sort of set set sacrif love Jesus has for the church.
Any man who is seeking to love his wife that way cannot punish her for his failures or even for her failures.

Punishment is not part of a husband and wife relationship in a Christian marriage.