Strong Nuclear Force

[Morat]

  I switched majors when I switched schools. Mainly I was struggling with the math, and not the concepts. I ended up in Computer Science because I am very good at it. I try to keep up with the field, though.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Cool. I have a CS degree as well! I hated the math in my CS program...had to take up to Calc 3.

See, now we can be friends, heh.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by Morat
How did God do it? Natural selection works in a simple, explainable, testable way. Differential reproduction.

"Testable?" Biologists use flies, bacteria, to test natural selection. No matter if they go through 300000 generations, i've never heard of something developing that was different than the original creature. Have you?

You say "God did it", and I'm as clueless as I was before as to how it really happened. I say "Natural selection did it" and you know that enviromental pressures resulted in differential reproduction, which led to a change in allele frequences in a population. Depending on the example, you can see what alleles and what pressures.

"Natural selection" explains antiobiotic resistance in bacteria. We know the buggers are dying in that enviroment, and that, because of natural selection, any of them that manage to tough it out better than others will contribute a greater percentage to the next generation (by virtue of being alive). With DNA analysis, we can even see what mutations, and what alleles changed from generation to generation.

Can you think of any "God did it" explanation that is that predictive?

I understand, but natural selection has its limits. You can breed a horse big and strong, but it will never reach the size and lift-capability of a Saturn-V. And you can breed horses with animals similar to it, but past a certain point, the offspring becomes sterile.

You think triangulation is the only way astronomers measure distance? How..strange.

Yes, strange. Strange we don't have signs on stars that tell us how far away they are. I understand you have a better, more practical and simpler explanation.

Funny, the earth spinning under my feet doesn't make me motion-sick either. I don't notice the Earth zooming sideways through space at a rather good clip, either.

It's amazing what you don't notice.

That's scientific.

I see. It's a "conspiracy". Hey, it's worth a shot. When all else fails, call them liars.

The other alternative is to follow them like blind sheep and not question anything they say. Take their every word for true and infallible.

I'm not dropping it, because it's a stupid claim.

It is. Why do you so want to hold onto your stupid claim, sir?

Really? Can you quote me any paper on biological evolution that discusses the Big Bang or abiogenesis. I'll even take a textbook.

I'll wait for you to support this.

Any biology textbook i had in school always talks about biological evolution, using the BB and Miller & Urey to support it.

Funny. So am I. You wouldn't believe the number of math courses you need for a Computer Science degree.

Programs involve lots of variables. Programs aren't math.

That is funny.   I don't know what you program (HTML doesn't count) but i've programmed in BASIC and a game engine called AGI (it looks a lot like Java), and both are fundamentally algebra. I don't know how you program. Is it some point-n-click thing?  

That's not experimentation, dear boy. And you're somewhat wrong. First off, when solving for an X intercept, you know y is zero. So you only need to know A and B. But since "y =ax+b" is the generic formula for any line, this isn't exactly rocket science.

Where's the experimentation there? I plug in numbers, I get different equations with different X intercepts. So? That's not experimentation, that's drawing differnent lines.

Yeah, you got it mixed up a little, too. When solving for the y-intercept, you neet to know one point on the line. It's not always the origin (0,0), unless the line goes throught the origin. If that's true, the y-intercept is simply 0. But in addition to a point, it's necessary to have the slope. 

That formula won't work for just any line, only a straight one. It won't work for a quadratic -- for that they use some other, y=a^x (can't remember). Anyway...

Morat, "plugging in" numbers wasn't heard of in 1950. You had to do it all by hand. That's some good mental exercise.

I'm asking for clarification. If you're unwilling to give it, I can't answer. *shrug*. It's not my fault you're unclear. You stated you weren't aware of anything "during the Big Bang". I asked if you meant "before" the Big Bang or "after" the Big Bang. The Big Bang itself was, depending on how you look at it, a fast event over the moment it started, or a long-drawn out one still going on.

So, clarify your question and I'll answer it. I don't read minds.

I see you're stalling. As a friendly gesture, i'll spare you and withdraw the question.

Cause and effect are macroscopic concepts, bound to space-time. Without time, there is no cause and effect. And quantum events ignore it anyways.

Take two atoms of U-235. Watch them. After a period of time, one will decay. The other will not. What caused one atom to decay, but not the other? Nothing.

Decay is causeless. It happens, the mechanism is well understood. But no event caused Atom A to decay, and not Atom B.

You're saying that the uranium isotope will decay? The matter changes? You're right, but below, you argue that matter is static.

What causes decay in atoms? Honestly, i don't know... But it could be when atoms decay they release energy (hence fuclear fission.) This would mean the second law of thermodynamics in action. Just like a hot cup of coffee will cool off, it's energy radiating into the air. Nothing causes an object to cool off.

That's a good question, though.

Presuppose evolution? Don't be silly. I don't presuppose evolution anymore than I presuppose that a binary search is an excellent way of searching a sorted list, or that it fails miserably if it's not sorted.

I don't presuppose God. I didn't presuppose evolution. Evolution is the best explanation for the facts I've found, and is so well supported that it's quite hard to deny. And yet, I hang around places like this, just waiting for someone to come up with something that'll make me rethink it.

A communist party member in the [color=cc0000]CCCP[/color] once said to himself: "If God doesn't exist, why are we fighting against Him?" I know you know about the persecution of Christians there.

Isn't that a good question? If Santa Claus doesn't exist, nobody tries to convince people of that. Morat, why do you want to convince us little ignorant Creationists, if our view is null and void? Why spend your time here?

I know that God exists. It's hard to explain to a non-Christian.

States of matter? Good lord, Alex. You think ice is different than water?

Matter stays the same. Whether the car is in pristine condition, or crushed into a 2 foot cube, the protons, neutrons, and electrons are still the same as they always were.

Steel, ice, gold, alloys, gasses....the properties of these things are properties caused by the specific combination of unchanging particles they're made up of.

Gold is different than nitrogen because gold has more protons, neutrons, and electrons than nitrogen. Which gives it different properties. But those protons, electrons, and neutrons properties never change.

Morat, like you said above, elements slowly decay into other elements. Uranium goes to lead, if i remember correctly. The concept of nuclear fusion is taking two isotopes of hydrogen (tritium and deuterium) colliding them together at a super-high temperature, forming a helium isotope and releasing energy.

Matter definitely changes, friend. Even on an atomic level.

There's even a field of "science" called chemical evolution. This is about how hydrogen slowly developed into the complex, heavy elements we have today. I don't believe in this, but it connects with biological evolution. I thought you knew, Morat.

Matter is subatomic particles. Your problem is you're trying to take a collection of these particles, point out that different collections have different properties, and claim that thus fundamental laws change.

Bollucks. Those properties never change, anymore than the properties of "2" change in  "2+3 =5" and "2+5 =7".

But 7=3+1+3. Where'd the 2 go?

Matter:
Whatever occupies space and is perceptable to the senses in some way: in modern physics, matter and energy are regarded as equivalents, mutually convertible accotding to Einstein's fromula, E = mc^2...

You are, by definition, matter. The collective mass of particles. The keyboard on which you type is matter. It isn't just sub-atomic particles. How can you smell or see a quark?

Elements? Nope. I said subatomic particles. Don't change my words, please. Heck, right after the Big Bang, all you had was a nifty soup of free quarks. As the universes cooled, they formed protons, neutrons, and electrons.

But strangely, the properties of the quarks never changed. And over the last 15 billion years, the properties of quarks, electrons, neutrons, and protons have never changed either. 

Soup of quarks? more presuppositions there, big guy. What happened 15 byrs ago, we have no way of showing or testing. It is all hypothesis.

 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

alex-

My current software project uses lots of math to do GPS and INS coordinate mapping. Just thought I would share.

 

[alexgb00]

foolsparade,

The theory of evolution has been around for 150 years. How many diseases were cured by evolutionists since then? I can't name any.

Christians have contributed some important things. The first actual hospitals were built by Catholics, if i remember right. Wehrner von Braun, the German-born American rocket scientist whose rockets put man on the moon, was a Creationist.

What i am afraid of is that this generation doesn't know the least bit of the Bible. I'm afraid for America. Without God, it won't take long for the country to collapse morally.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by alexgb00
foolsparade,

The theory of evolution has been around for 150 years. How many diseases were cured by evolutionists since then? I can't name any.

Christians have contributed some important things. The first actual hospitals were built by Catholics, if i remember right. Wehrner von Braun, the German-born American rocket scientist whose rockets put man on the moon, was a Creationist.

What i am afraid of is that this generation doesn't know the least bit of the Bible. I'm afraid for America. Without God, it won't take long for the country to collapse morally.

It has already begun...since the 60's we have been going down the sewer drain.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by s0uljah
alex-

My current software project uses lots of math to do GPS and INS coordinate mapping. Just thought I would share.

Thanks, brother. That helps. I knew that i knew what i was talking about.

What exactly are you making now?

Alex

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Its just a program to read satellite GPS data, convert it to latitude/longitude, and make sure that the readings are in a certain boundary. I can't say much more than that though...considering that I work for certain parts of the government

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by s0uljah
It has already begun...since the 60's we have been going down the sewer drain.

Slowly but surely, huh?

R.C. Sproul said that today's Christians are like the Indians two centuries ago. At one time, Indians roamed the country freely. But there came a time when they were gathered into a clump and sent to reservations.

Likewise, there was a time when Christians could freely worship God anywhere. Slowly, though, we're losing this right and being told we can't talk about God outside the Church.

It's sad. The end can't be too far away. S0uljah, Did you read the Left Behind books? They're about the end times as described in Revelation.

Alex

 

[Morat]

"Testable?" Biologists use flies, bacteria, to test natural selection. No matter if they go through 300000 generations, i've never heard of something developing that was different than the original creature. Have you?

  Actually, that's "speciation", of which talk.origins has two large lists of.

  Natural selection is somewhat simpler. It's merely enviromental pressures changing allele frequences. Peppered moths are an excellent and simple example.

I understand, but natural selection has its limits. You can breed a horse big and strong, but it will never reach the size and lift-capability of a Saturn-V. And you can breed horses with animals similar, but past a certain point the offspring become sterile.

   Really? Why? And what's that got to do with speciation? For instance, how do you explain ring species?

Yes, strange. Strange we don't have signs on stars that tell us how far away they are. I understand you have a better, more practical and simpler explanation.

  To measure the distance to stars? Astronomers have several methods besides parallax. Look here for some. Why do you think they're limited to the methods you can come up with?

That's scientific.

  You're the one whose "response" to an expanding universe was you didn't notice it. You don't notice the earth zipping along through space, either.

   It was a rather pointed comment on your response.

The other alternative is to follow them like blind sheep and not question anything they say. Take their every word for true and infallible.

  Oh, I see. They're either infallible or liars. Goodness. And here I thought peer-review existed just to deal with that problem. You know, there are a great many Christian scientists in every field. And atheist ones, and Hindu ones, and Buddhist ones....

It is. Why do you so want to hold onto your stupid claim, sir?

  You're the one that made the claim that falsifying evolution would somehow get rid of teh Big Bang. You've yet to support it. I'm still waiting.

Any biology textbook i had in school always talks about biological evolution, using the BB and Miller & Urey to support it.

  Really? You're going to have to quote it. And reference it. Because I have a nice college text right in front of me, and it doesn't mention the Big Bang, or anything about astronomy or cosmology at all. It does mention Miller and Urey, but in the section entitled "Abiogenesis", under "Early abiogenesis research".

  Nowhere in the text on evolution is it mentioned at all.

That is funny. <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif" border=0>&nbsp; I don't know what you program (HTML doesn't count) but i've programmed in BASIC and a game engine called AGI (it looks a lot like Java), and both&nbsp;are fundamentally algebra. I don't know&nbsp;how you program. Is it some point-n-click thing?&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp; Well, it's called "C++" and "Java". Now, I took courses in how to perform math operations with computers. It was a lot about precision, and how computer store numbers, and algorithms to let you do continuus math (as opposed to discrete math).

&nbsp;&nbsp; But, I've got to say, that Object Oriented programming is, in fact, not, fundamentally algebra.

&nbsp;&nbsp; So, I'm going to have to ask you for some examples here. As I've got a degree in this field, and work in it, I'm really lost on this, and would appreciate you setting me straight.

Yeah, you got it mixed up a little, too. When solving for the y-intercept, you neet to know one point on the line. It's not always the origin (0,0), unless the line goes throught the origin. If that's true, the y-intercept is simply 0. But in addition to a point, it's necessary to have the slope.&nbsp;

&nbsp; You asked for the x intercept, not the y. When solving for the y intercept, x is zero.

&nbsp;&nbsp; An x or y intercept is the point on the line that crosses the x or y axis. The y axis is the line "x=0", and the x-axis is the line "y =0".

&nbsp;&nbsp; You need only a and b. One of the variables will be zero, when solving for the intercept, and the other is what you are solving for.

&nbsp; Perhaps you were confused when you wrote it originally.

That&nbsp;formula won't work for&nbsp;just any line, only a straight one. It won't work for a quadratic -- for that they use some other, y=a^x (can't remember). Anyway...

Morat, "plugging in" numbers wasn't heard of in 1950. You had to do it all by hand. That's some good mental exercise

&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes, it works only for straight lines. I'm quite aware of that. This sort of thing was vaguely covered in all those upper-level math courses I had to take.

&nbsp;&nbsp; "Plugging in numbers" means simply assigning a value to the slope and the offset (+b). In other words, make a specific line, as opposed to a generic "y = ax +b".

&nbsp; It's not a computer thing, unless you're stating that "y=2x + 3" was not somethign anyone understood until 1950.

&nbsp;see you're stalling. As a friendly gesture, i'll spare you and withdraw the question.

&nbsp; Because clarifying it would hurt? *shrug*. Up to you. If you're too lazy to clarify a question, you must not have really wanted an answer.

You're saying that the uranium isotope will decay? The matter changes? You're right, but below, you argue that matter is static.

What causes decay in atoms? Honestly, i don't know... But it could be when atoms decay they release energy (hence fuclear fission.) This would mean the second law of thermodynamics in action. Just like a hot&nbsp;cup of coffee will cool off, it's energy radiating into the air. Nothing causes an object to cool off.

That's a good question, though.

&nbsp; You should read up on decay. You've got some odd notions. Strangely, none of the physical properties of the subatomic particles changes, which was your initial claim.

A communist party member&nbsp;in the CCCP once said to himself: "If God doesn't exist, why are we fighting against Him?" I know you know about the persecution of Christians there.

Isn't that a good question? If Santa Claus doesn't exist, nobody tries to&nbsp;convince people of that.&nbsp;Morat, why do you want to convince us little ignorant Creationists, if our view is null and void? Why spend your time here?

I know that God exists. It's hard to explain to a non-Christian.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Alex, if it wasn't for the fact that you're trying to pawn your grubby little religion off on my kids, I wouldn't even be here.

&nbsp; I don't care what you believe about God. Believe he's Michael Jackson in a Tutu for all I care.

&nbsp;&nbsp; However, when you start trying to pawn it off as science, and have it taught to my kids as science, when it most evidently is not, then I get involved.

&nbsp; Admittedly, I'd also step in if I saw you telling obvious untruths, but that's just because I hate to see lies go unchecked.

Morat, like you said above, elements slowly decay into other elements. Uranium goes to lead, if i remember correctly. The concept of nuclear fusion is taking two isotopes of hydrogen (tritium and deuterium) colliding them together at a super-high temperature, forming a helium isotope and releasing energy.

Matter definitely changes, friend. Even on an atomic level.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you know what the atomic difference is between Uranium and lead? The number of protons and electrons. Period.

&nbsp; The difference between hydrogen and helium is one proton. As in "hydrogen as one, and helium has two".

&nbsp;&nbsp; The protons don't change. The electrons don't change. More importantly, their properties do not change.

You are, by definition, matter. The collective mass of particles. The keyboard on which you type is matter. It isn't just sub-atomic particles. How can you smell or see a quark?

&nbsp; Your initial claim was that the properties of matter were mutable. I pointed out that it only appeared that way, because what you consider "matter" is merely a collection of particles whose properties do not change.

&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm not sure why you're arguing it. Do you think the properties of a proton change?

Soup of quarks? <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" border=0> more presuppositions there, big&nbsp;guy. What happened 15 byrs ago, we have no way of showing or testing. It is all hypothesis.

&nbsp; Sure we do. Just because you don't know how, doesn't mean no one knows how.

&nbsp; It's a simple matter of pumping up the energy densities to that level.

&nbsp; Or do you claim that process of ice forming in my freezer results in different ice than water freezing in the arctic?

 

[Morat]

Alex: I never said programmers couldn't write programs to do math.

&nbsp;&nbsp; You claimed, quite clearly, that programming was basically algebra. It's not. I've written many programs to perform math, ranging from simple (solving 3 dimensional equations) to complex (solving complex differential equations or modeling chaotic conditions).

&nbsp;&nbsp; But programming isn't math.

&nbsp;

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Its just a program to read satellite GPS data, convert it to latitude/longitude, and make sure that the readings are in a certain boundary. I can't say much more than that though...considering that I work for certain parts of the government

Hey, i'm impressed! Central Intelligence Agency? Select Committe on Intelligence? United States Marine Corps? National Aeronautics and Space Administration? Which is it?

Are you doing the project alone, or with some group?

 

[Morat]

&nbsp; I'd imagine if he worked for Nasa, we could share gripes.

&nbsp;

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by Morat
Alex: I never said programmers couldn't write programs to do math.

You claimed, quite clearly, that programming was basically algebra. It's not. I've written many programs to perform math, ranging from simple (solving 3 dimensional equations) to complex (solving complex differential equations or modeling chaotic conditions).

But programming isn't math.

Morat, i can't get it throught to you. Computers are built on mathematics. Logic is built on mathematics. Computer science is built on mathematics.

A&nbsp;hexadecimal color (RRGGBB)&nbsp;code is math. There is a certain binary number for each letter (ASCII). To make a graphical user interface, it requires a lot of math. I don't know how you can insist that programming isn't set on algebra. It's beyond me.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by Morat
&nbsp; I'd imagine if he worked for Nasa, we could share gripes.&nbsp;

Why's that, Morat?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by alexgb00


Slowly but surely, huh?

R.C. Sproul said that today's Christians are like the Indians two centuries ago. At one time, Indians roamed the country freely. But there came a time when they were gathered into a clump and sent to reservations.

Likewise, there was a time when Christians could freely worship God anywhere. Slowly, though, we're losing this right and being told we can't talk about God outside the Church.

It's sad. The end can't be too far away. S0uljah, Did you read the Left Behind books? They're about the end times as described in Revelation.

Alex

I havent read those books, since I heard they were anti-catholic.&nbsp; I am catholic....are we still friends? LOL

 

[Morat]

Morat, i can't get it throught to you. <I>Computers</I> are built on mathematics. <I>Logic</I> is built on mathematics. <I>Computer science</I> is built on mathematics.

&nbsp; I'd imagine because your claim is unsupportable. Computers, by the way, are built on logic, and utilize logical operations to do everything. Not mathematical. An ordinary counter is powered with AND, OR and NOT gates.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Computer science, by the way, is built on considerably more than mathematics. We're required to take a lot, yes. Because a lot of what we do involves programming math (computers are quite good at brute-forcing solutions), and because mathematical analysis helps with programming well. But the math I use is the same a physicist uses.

&nbsp;&nbsp; It's a tool, a language, a way of expressing things. Computers, like physics students, have to understand it.&nbsp;

&nbsp; But math isn't a science.

&nbsp;

A&nbsp;hexadecimal color (RRGGBB)&nbsp;code is math. There is a certain binary number for each letter (ASCII). To make a graphical user interface, it requires a lot of math. I don't know how you can insist that programming isn't set on algebra. It's beyond me.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes. I know what ASCII is. I even know why hex is used (actually, at it's base, it's still binary).

&nbsp; How is this algebra? Or this?

&nbsp; Sure, it's got numbers. And variables. So? It's got classes, and objects, and functions, and pointers, and operators, and a host of other things.

&nbsp;

class moving_van {
protected:
&nbsp;&nbsp; float payload;
&nbsp;&nbsp; float gross_weight;
&nbsp;&nbsp; float mpg;
public:
&nbsp;&nbsp; void initialize(float pl, float gw, float in_mpg) {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; payload = pl;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; gross_weight = gw;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mpg = in_mpg; };
&nbsp;&nbsp; float efficiency(void) {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; return(payload / (payload + gross_weight)); };
&nbsp;&nbsp; float cost_per_ton(float fuel_cost) {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; return(fuel_cost / (payload / 2000.0)); };
};


class driver {
protected:
&nbsp;&nbsp; float hourly_pay;
public:
&nbsp;&nbsp; void initialize(float pay) {hourly_pay = pay; };
&nbsp;&nbsp; float cost_per_mile(void) {return(hourly_pay / 55.0); } ;
};


class driven_truck : public moving_van, public driver {
public:
&nbsp;&nbsp; void initialize_all(float pl, float gw, float in_mpg, float pay)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { payload = pl;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; gross_weight = gw;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mpg = in_mpg;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; hourly_pay = pay; };
&nbsp;&nbsp; float cost_per_full_day(float cost_of_gas) {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; return(8.0 * hourly_pay +
8.0 * cost_of_gas * 55.0 / mpg); };
};


main()
{
driven_truck chuck_ford;

&nbsp;&nbsp; chuck_ford.initialize_all(20000.0, 12000.0, 5.2, 12.50);

&nbsp;&nbsp; cout &lt;&lt; "The efficiency of the Ford is " &lt;&lt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; chuck_ford.efficiency() &lt;&lt; "\n";

&nbsp;&nbsp; cout &lt;&lt; "The cost per mile for Chuck to drive is " &lt;&lt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; chuck_ford.cost_per_mile() &lt;&lt; "\n";

&nbsp;&nbsp; cout &lt;&lt; "The cost of Chuck driving the Ford for a day is " &lt;&lt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; chuck_ford.cost_per_full_day(1.129) &lt;&lt; "\n";
}

&nbsp; Doing math is not being math.&nbsp;Where is the algebra in that?

&nbsp; Oh, and I've worked for NASA (actually a contractor) as a software engineer for the last 5 years.

&nbsp;

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Morat

I'd imagine because your claim is unsupportable. Computers, by the way, are built on logic, and utilize logical operations to do everything. Not mathematical. An ordinary counter is powered with AND, OR and NOT gates.

Boole died a happy man, knowing he had finally found a branch of mathematics which would always remain purely theoretical.

 

[Morat]

&nbsp;Hehe. Boolean algebra, the mathematical way to manipulate logic. Man, I've done more of that stuff. Do you know how complex a simple counter is? Counting from 0000 to 1111? Pain in the neck.

&nbsp; Seriously, math isn't anything more than a highly descriptive language. To the point where it can (and does) describe itself. I wouldn't call it science, anymore than I would logic. But I'm not aware of a single field of science that doesn't use math, because it's about the only thing that will work.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Regardless, the claim that programming is "basically algebra" could only be made by someone fairly clueless in both.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by npetreley
I have no idea how old the earth is, but I suspect it is a lot closer to 6,000 years old than it is 14 billion years old.

Actually, 14 Gyr is the approximate age of the universe, not the Earth.

By the way, I wonder if the non-believers here have any idea how much information contained in the geneologies starting with Genesis 9 is directly traceable to today (in other words, confirmed by our current state of knowledge). That's only 8 chapters away from the stuff they say is fairy tale.

So I'm a "non-believer" again, eh? It's quite sinful to judge another's salvation.