Striking Out Paul

[Misty Minister]

Followers of John the Baptist still exist. It might be interesting to ask them what they make of John 1 19-37 and why they are not Christians.
CanDAn, Foon, Tulc, Fate?

 

[Fire]

You must have forgotten that Jesus said there would BE NO signs.

An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
[Matthew 12:39-40]

The sign of Jonah is absent from the gospel of Mark [Mark 8:12]

 

[Misty Minister]

What if I caught the challice and did not spill the wine? That would be a good thing, right?

 

[Fire]

What if I caught the challice and did not spill the wine? That would be a good thing, right?

What do you think the chalice and the wine represent?

 

[Misty Minister]

grace nice!

 

[Misty Minister]

<edit>

 

[foursquareman]

<edit>

hahahaha, that's a ridiculous notion!

There are a multitude of people able to think about the concept of a virgin without lusting about sex!

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

And that other multitude that can't.

 

[Chrysostomon]

We have been referring thus far to &#8220;the author&#8221; of Acts. Our reason is that the work circulated anonymously. The same is true of the companion work, the Gospel of Luke, which eventually came to circulate with a traditional title. Though Acts is traditionally attributed to Luke the beloved physician and companion of Paul, in recent years the book has been increasingly regarded as composed by an unknown author. It is likely that the author lived in the generation after Paul. We can assume that he did his best with the sources available to him, at a distance of two to three decades from the death of Paul (A.D. 64?) and from the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

It is ironic that the more one insists upon the author&#8217;s being a contemporary and companion of the apostle, the more difficult it is to believe in the author&#8217;s due diligence and good faith. If he is allowed to be a late first century author, his lack of information or his misinformation is understandable, and his good efforts are laudable.

http://www.paulonpaul.org/workshop/acts_source_1.htm


Chrysostomon,
[font=Times New Roman, Times]Your criticism concerning the authorship of Acts is valid. While I still believe that Paul was the author of Acts and Hebrews, I do not have proof at this time.

[/font]

Then your accusation about him being a liar is based on something you're not even sure of... his authorship. That's convincing stuff!

 

[ChiRho]

I never worry about it. God can take care of the details, all I have to do is try my best to live a life of compassion, justice and mercy.

From where do you draw this idea that "effort" is all that matters? Also, when God demands "thou shalt not lie," are you contending that He really means "thou shalt try not to lie?"

I don't have to "deserve" grace. It's available to those who seek it......it is God's gracious love and God loves nothing better than to give it.

Everything is contingent upon our action? We seek, therefore, we receive forgiveness?

Is this not a "deserved" grace, awarded to those who actively seek God?

Still, if this is so, how are you confident that you have sought enough or or sought rightly?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[elman]

From where do you draw this idea that "effort" is all that matters? Also, when God demands "thou shalt not lie," are you contending that He really means "thou shalt try not to lie?"





Everything is contingent upon our action? We seek, therefore, we receive forgiveness?

Is this not a "deserved" grace, awarded to those who actively seek God?

Still, if this is so, how are you confident that you have sought enough or or sought rightly?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

No it is not deserved grace. Just because we seek forgiveness does not mean we are entitled to forgiveness. It is God who makes the seeking enough, not me. That is the grace. If we are honest with ourselves we will always know we have not sought enough or rightly.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

If you know that much, you must know that the Septuagint is a translation from the original Hebrew to the Greek.....and the original Hebrew said, "young woman," not virgin.

And you don't believe a translator might be inspired?

How about editors and redactors? Do you take it on faith that they must have been operating purely out of their own self interests and couldn't possibly be inspired?

That's the whole point, isn't it?

Is what the whole point?

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

when God demands "thou shalt not lie,"

Where does he demand that?

 

[ChiRho]

Where does he demand that?

Well pilgrum...

Exodus 20

1Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.


3"You shall have no other gods before Me.


4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.


5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,


6but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.


7"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.


8"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


9"Six days you shall labor and do all your work,


10but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.


11"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.


12"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.


13"You shall not murder.


14"You shall not commit adultery.


15"You shall not steal.


16"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.


17"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Chiro said:

From where do you draw this idea that "effort" is all that matters? Also, when God demands "thou shalt not lie," are you contending that He really means "thou shalt try not to lie?"

Foon says:

The Bible tells us that we do not sin, but the Bible also says that if we should happen to sin, Jesus will be an advocate for us and we will be forgiven.

So, of course, we do the best we can. God knows if it's a sincere effort.

Chi said:

Everything is contingent upon our action? We seek, therefore, we receive forgiveness?

Is this not a "deserved" grace, awarded to those who actively seek God?

Still, if this is so, how are you confident that you have sought enough or or sought rightly?

Foon says:

Everyone seeks God in one way or another. Everyone questions and ponders the supernatural.

Some, though.....may reject God and choose evil. They have rejected grace.

Those with hearts that are moving toward God are given Grace even though they may not be asking for it consciously. Their actions show them to be children of God.

Their actions will become more and more compassionate, merciful and just. Their actions show their true heart. They are forgiven for whatever mistakes they make.

Grace is there and available to all who want it. It is deserved because there is no way for it to be "undeserved." Why WOULD it be "undeserved?"

If you reject it, you reject it.....that doesn't mean you then do not DESERVE it.....You simply didn't pick up on that option.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Jesus said, "If the son sets you free (from sin, in context) then you shall be free indeed."

John wrote,

NO one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Paul, however, says..........

17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

In the future please give a citation.
For the record the first quote is from 1 John 3 and the second from Romans 7.

The implication of this comparison seems to be that true Christians don't sin.
Is that what you intended?
Is it your claim that you have not sinned since becoming a Christian?

Along with forgiving our sins Jesus came to teach us how to be more holy, to be more like God the Father...

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?
22 Jesus answered, I tell you, not seven times, but seventyseven times.

And again in

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Followers of John the Baptist still exist. It might be interesting to ask them what they make of John 1 19-37 and why they are not Christians.
CanDAn, Foon, Tulc, Fate?

If you see any of them, ask them and let us know what they say.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

The implication of this comparison seems to be that true Christians don't sin.

No, if you had read the posts earlier in the thread you would know that what was in question was whether or not we have the potential to live a life without sin.

You really shouldn't jump in at the end and start making assumptions.

Read the whole thread.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Well pilgrum...

Exodus 20
16"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The emphasis throughout the Hebrew Scriptures is on not slandering or not going to court and testifying falsely against your neighbor. I don't think God generally condones lying, but as far as I know there is no commandment against lying, and indeed David lied as did Rahab.

 

[ChiRho]

The emphasis throughout the Hebrew Scriptures is on not slandering or not going to court and testifying falsely against your neighbor. I don't think God generally condones lying, but as far as I know there is no commandment against lying, and indeed David lied as did Rahab.

Robert...

Are you familiar with this?

The Eighth Commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.