Striking Out Paul

[Foon Nerfdahl]

I kind of like the Jefferson Bible, myself. He basically rewrote it.

 

[Misty Minister]

Tulc, you are funnin' with me again.

I'm sure that you know that the correct translation of Isaiah says "young woman," not "virgin."

That's pretty elementary.

The only question about it is whether or not Matthew was aware that he was creating a big fib or whether he considered it within the scope of misrashic prose (poetic license for Jewish writers to play fast and loose with the facts).

It is probable that he saw himself as doing midrash and therefore knew that Isaiah didn't say "virgin."

Really, tulc.......I expect better from now on.

I had a proffessor who said that the word used for maiden or virgin could also mean prostitute.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Ok, back to topic.

Here's what Jesus said about salvation.

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and put him to a test, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Now......Paul/Saul the self-appointed apostle, had a different religion.

Paul said, "You are saved by grace through faith."

And by so doing, created the new religion of Paulianity......made it ok to be greedy, selfish, oppress the poor, slander homosexuals, treat women as inferiors, kill Muslims for fun and profit......etc.

So........the evil and greedy men became Paulians.

It was inevitable.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

 

[CaDan]

And by so doing, created the new religion of Paulianity......made it ok to be greedy, selfish, oppress the poor, slander homosexuals, treat women as inferiors, kill Muslims for fun and profit......etc.

So........the evil and greedy men became Paulians.

It was inevitable.

Citation, please?

As for "Paulian" behavior, might I suggest a review of Romans 12?

 

[merryheart]

Whew!

IMO, Paul's teachings are poorly understood - but the fault does not lie with Paul, it lies with poor translations, bias, and an unspiritual reading of what he actually had to say.

 

[tulc]

Foon I'm sensing you don't care for Paul.
tulc(not trying to put words in your mouth of course, so correct me if I'm wrong!)

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Whew!

IMO, Paul's teachings are poorly understood - but the fault does not lie with Paul, it lies with poor translations, bias, and an unspiritual reading of what he actually had to say.

REALLY!!!

Blame the translators?

Ok, who was mistranslated in the examples I gave.....Jesus or Paul?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Foon I'm sensing you don't care for Paul.
tulc(not trying to put words in your mouth of course, so correct me if I'm wrong!)

t,

Paul doesn't bother me......the current run of Pharisaical Paulians who fight against equal health care for all children while calling themselves followers of Jesus, now..............ummmmm, they bother me quite a bit.

They couldn't have done it without Paul's perversion of the concepts of grace and sin.

Jefferson had Paul pegged perfectly.

 

[merryheart]

REALLY!!!

Blame the translators?

Ok, who was mistranslated in the examples I gave.....Jesus or Paul?

I don't have any comment on your examples, since I didn't just now read them, but seem to remember someone taking that up with you well enuff when I read this thread earlier... from what I remember, your examples were not so much the victim of translators as they were contextual twistings.

Some of the passages that I have always had a problem with Paul on, until I realized that Paul never said those things at all, were the places where he is misquoted and mistranslated concerning a woman's place and behavior in the church.

A good thought-provoking website for anyone who is interested is http://www.godswordtowomen.org/

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

from what I remember, your examples were not so much the victim of translators as they were contextual twistings.

Hello!

What do you mean by that? If you are saying that I twisted something, you really need to provide the information.

 

[tulc]

Paul doesn't bother me......the current run of Pharisaical Paulians who fight against equal health care for all children while calling themselves followers of Jesus, now..............ummmmm, they bother me quite a bit.

They couldn't have done it without Paul's perversion of the concepts of grace and sin.

Well me too. I like Paul and I fight for health care for children. So let's not lump groups together ok? You seem to imply that if you like Paul you have abandoned Jesus. I find that...hurtful. Perhaps you could clarify why I shouldn't take offense? After all I have some background in serving the Lord and and been inspired by the writings of Paul (and Luke and Peter and James and John) and haven't turned my back on serving the the poor. Maybe it isn't as cut and dry as I seem to see you making it out to be?
tulc(just hanging out, getting ready to go back to work at 5:00 tomorrow morning)

 

[Mustaphile]

Well me too. I like Paul and I fight for health care for children. So let's not lump groups together ok? You seem to imply that if you like Paul you have abandoned Jesus. I find that...hurtful. Perhaps you could clarify why I shouldn't take offense? After all I have some background in serving the Lord and and been inspired by the writings of Paul (and Luke and Peter and James and John) and haven't turned my back on serving the the poor. Maybe it isn't as cut and dry as I seem to see you making it out to be?
tulc(just hanging out, getting ready to go back to work at 5:00 tomorrow morning)

He's not angry at you, tulc. He's just plain angry all around.

People lash out at the ones they love when they get angry.

/me hugs tulc

God knows your heart tulc and God is the only one who really understands you. I'm pretty sure I know who and what you are in some small way. I love you and think you have a real loving heart for God and for others.

 

[Tetzel]

Let us look at Paul objectively.

Paul's "gospel" is one of defeat. Paul says he tries and tries, but he just keeps on sinning (apparently constantly). Poor sap is obsessed with sin and sees it behind every bush......for himself and others. He thinks he's chained to a body of death. He has a thorn in his side, he says.

Thorn in his brain, maybe.

Paul's "gospel" is sort of pathetic.

Yeah because there is nothing pathetic about God coming down to his people and getting brutally executed for his trouble. Are you familiar with the concepts of the Theology of Glory and the Theology of the Cross?

 

[Tetzel]

You mean where Paul says the only thing that counts is faith working itself out in love or 1 Cor 13 where the most important thing is love or Rom 14 where it is not about eating and drinking but about loving one another? Is this what is in disagreement with Jesus?

Duh! Jesus said sin no more. So don't sin! Although, I must question, if Jesus' command were so simple why a savior was required at all? There are plenty of admonishments in the Old Testament about not sinning, what was the point of Christ showing up?

 

[Tetzel]

Saul had pleanty of reasons to fake his vision. If the story about the blindness and the healing is not a fantasy, the deciples could have confused the collective unconcious, or something for being the revelation of God. I have seen those kind of mistakes happen in Christian communities before. "Paul is still Saul."

He had plenty of reasons not to fake a conversion as well. Saul spent his time persecuting and assisting in the killing (see St. Stephen) of Christians before the conversion. Suppose Billy-bob is driving along in his pick up truck on his way back from a KKK rally. Do you think he's going to be sitting there cruising along and think "You know how I could really make my life a lot more fun. I'm going to tell everyone that my Great Grandfather was black. Then I'm going to travel around the country working for civil rights until I get lynched"?

 

[CaDan]

Well me too. I like Paul and I fight for health care for children. So let's not lump groups together ok? You seem to imply that if you like Paul you have abandoned Jesus. I find that...hurtful. Perhaps you could clarify why I shouldn't take offense? After all I have some background in serving the Lord and and been inspired by the writings of Paul (and Luke and Peter and James and John) and haven't turned my back on serving the the poor. Maybe it isn't as cut and dry as I seem to see you making it out to be?
tulc(just hanging out, getting ready to go back to work at 5:00 tomorrow morning)

Foon....... Ah, Foon......

You walked right into that one. And it wasn't even a trap.

You see, tulc doesn't toot it around here, but he is likely the only person on CF who really HAS sold all he had and given it to the poor. Not metaphorically, either. Putting him in the camp of those who would deny health care to children is an ad hominem that is so ridiculous that it backfires on you.

 

[Tetzel]

I said that Paul was in disagreement with Jesus and the rest of the Bible.

Since you seem so keen on who wrote what and when, tell me, what has Jesus written? How do you know that what has been ascribed to Jesus is what he said? If Paul and Luke cannot be trusted to write, how are we to know that Matthew, Mark, and John were on the level?

 

[Tetzel]

I say, REJECT ANY FOONISM that departs from the Gospel of Jesus!

And that Gospel of Jesus is a book written somewhere, or is it Matthew, Mark and John? Can Luke's Gospel be there too or has he been too naughty?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Matthew and Luke have both been pretty naughty, but both have some truth as well.