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Striking Out Paul

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Foon Nerfdahl

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The writer of Second Peter wrote it LONG after Peter and Paul were dead. That's a well established fact among any but the most FundaGelical of Bible Scholars.

We can call him Peter if it makes you comfortable, and what he wrote was, as I said, that Paul's many contradictions and confusing writing style had led many people astray......just as it is doing for many in this forum who feel a need to defend Paul.

We certainly COULD view it as a veiled DEFENSE of Paul because by that time a lot of people were probably complaining about Paul's "gospel" being different from that of Jesus, and the early church fathers had a vested interest in keeping people confused and pretending that THEY were the only people gifted enough to understand spiritual things and interpret what Paul really meant to say.

That's how the Second Letter of Peter came to be.......it was basically spin.

And, it certainly did not verify any of the wild stories of Paul's exploits as noted ONLY by the rather imaginative Luke, did it?

Right. As I said.

:amen: ;)
 
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Foon Nerfdahl

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CaDan said:
So we're down to Mark and John for Gospels. Maybe Q? Or we could boil John down to the Signs Gospel.

CaDan (who would post in greater detail on this subject, but is far from his library)
Did Jesus have a Library?

Or did he speak with knowledge and authority?

;)

I have said repeatedly that I haven't eliminated any Gospels, books or letters from the Bible.......but people still seem to want to pretend that I have.

What I HAVE said is that we have to examine all these writings carefully and interpret them correctly.

I think that some personality types are stuck in an either/or mentality......that is--you either accept every word of the Bible as fact or you throw the whole thing out.

:sigh:

That's EXACTLY what SATAN would have you do!!!!!!!

(If there was a Satan.)

:D
 
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Foon Nerfdahl

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Tulc, you are funnin' with me again.

I'm sure that you know that the correct translation of Isaiah says "young woman," not "virgin."

That's pretty elementary.

The only question about it is whether or not Matthew was aware that he was creating a big fib or whether he considered it within the scope of misrashic prose (poetic license for Jewish writers to play fast and loose with the facts).

It is probable that he saw himself as doing midrash and therefore knew that Isaiah didn't say "virgin."

Really, tulc.......I expect better from now on.

:wave:
 
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tulc

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Tulc, you are funnin' with me again.

I'm sure that you know that the correct translation of Isaiah says "young woman," not "virgin."
Ahh I see, because no young women ever got pregnant before. That's why it it would be considered a sign? :scratch:
tulc(man, that was a pretty vague promise somewhere around "oh and at some point a young woman will get pregnant, and you'll call him Bernieuell which means Bernie with us!") :sorry:
 
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CaDan

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Foon Nerfdahl said:
Did Jesus have a Library?

Or did he speak with knowledge and authority?

;)

Did Jesus write anything except for some scribbles in the dust in John 8? All of the writings we have are subject to analysis. Privileging the canonical gospels seems to miss the point. The writings of Paul are certainly earlier than the written Gospels even if you are an early dater of the Gospels.

Foon Nerfdahl said:
I have said repeatedly that I haven't eliminated any Gospels, books or letters from the Bible.......but people still seem to want to pretend that I have.

Correct. But you do discount Acts and by implication Luke to the point that they are worthless. Supposedly because they were written by Paul's "buddy" Luke.

Now, I will grant you that the author of Luke certainly ... umm ... amplifies upon Paul's conversion story. The author of Luke also downplays the dispute between Paul and the Jerusalem disciples.

Should Acts be critically examined? You bet. Should it just be tossed? Nope.

Foon Nerfdahl said:
What I HAVE said is that we have to examine all these writings carefully and interpret them correctly.

I'm with you on the careful reading. I'm not sure what you mean by interpreting them carefully.

Foon Nerfdahl said:
I think that some personality types are stuck in an either/or mentality......that is--you either accept every word of the Bible as fact or you throw the whole thing out.

:sigh:

Please don't confuse me with your standard-issue evangelical. :) I'm down with Paul Tillich and Helmut Köster. Higher criticism? You bet. I'm a big fan of the Q hypothesis, but I am open to Griesbach as an alternative--especially as modified by Goulder and Goodacre.

Foon Nerfdahl said:
That's EXACTLY what SATAN would have you do!!!!!!!

(If there was a Satan.)

:D

No comment. :D
 
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Foon Nerfdahl

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Ah yes, Happy New Year to all.

And CaDan, what I was trying to say about your library comment was that much of this quoting from libraries is boring and useless. One poster copies in a huge glop of "evidence" and then the opposing poster copies in a huge glop of "evidence" that contradicts the first "evidence."

I rarely even READ that stuff.

It reminds me of court trials where each side hires their own "expert" to testify and the most talented liar wins.

We know in our hearts what is true and what is false about God.

Jesus only quoted scripture.....never the ideas of "experts."

AND.....he did debunk some of it.

Which brings us to Luke and Acts.

Let's be clear......I have not thrown out Acts and I do feel that some of Luke's writing is wonderful. I think he took off and ran with Matthew's midrash and gave us a superb Christmas story.

And I have not declared, as you claim, Acts to be "worthless."

All scripture has value, but we must recognize that some (a lot) is both unfactual and incredibly biased (as Acts is biased to promote Paul).

Hey, I even watch Fox News sometimes and often get ..... perhaps not true, but valuable information from it.

:D
 
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Mustaphile

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Foon Nerfdahl said:
Let's be clear......

There is little that is 'clear' about the way you perceive your faith walk, Foon. :)

I get a sense of a 'play it by ear' type of faith walk that loves flexibility of response over arbitrary stances.

I trust and know with certainty that God still loves you though, brother. :hug:

A Happy New Year to you too!

God loves you and I love you too. :hug: :hug:
 
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Foon Nerfdahl

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Well, Mustaphile......I DO NOT play it by ear.

However, I do play it by my heart.

Which is the correct way to play it.

And my heart tells me God loves me..........and you........and every single person that ever lived or will live (well, except tulc, who God simply finds annoying).

:D (Just kidding, tulc.)

My heart also tells me that you try to love in the same way God does.

So......here's a good question....what exactly does it mean when you tell me that you love me and God loves me?

You love everybody, right?

So......thanks..........I guess.

;)
 
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PastorFreud

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CaDan said:
Ice cream for everybody! it is yummy and delicious!
Once I had sworn off ice cream, but now that I have discovered Blue Bunny ice cream, I am partaking once again. It has all the taste with a fraction of the downsides for me as a diabetic. Hmmm.... I may be spiritually diabetic too.
 
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Mustaphile

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So......here's a good question....what exactly does it mean when you tell me that you love me and God loves me?

You love everybody, right?

It means my unqualified acceptance of you, for who you are and my understanding of our equal status before God as recipients of his unmerited favour.

I do try to love everybody. :)
 
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Misty Minister

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Robert the Pilegrim said:
Proof? You mean like a believer having a vision that they should take you, a known enemy of the church, into their home and care for you until you recovered?
Yep, the testimony of hallucinators. BTW do we have proof that the incident really happened?
 
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Misty Minister

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tulc said:
Foon you do seem willing to take Luke's word on Jesus but not on the early Church.
Uh oh I see us being reduced to three Gospels! :sigh:
tulc(man at this rate we're going to have to keep a score card as to what's real and what isn't) ;)
ONE gospel is enough if it is TRUE.
 
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