Striking Out Paul

[CaDan]

And that Gospel of Jesus is a book written somewhere, or is it Matthew, Mark and John? Can Luke's Gospel be there too or has he been too naughty?

Naughty, naughty Luke! Hanging out with that rebel Paul.

And you don't even want to know about Timothy and Barnabas!

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Since you seem so keen on who wrote what and when, tell me, what has Jesus written? How do you know that what has been ascribed to Jesus is what he said? If Paul and Luke cannot be trusted to write, how are we to know that Matthew, Mark, and John were on the level?

This is a good and fair question, Tetzel.

The Holy Spirit guides us in identifying things that don't make sense or just FEEL wrong. There are a lot of them--some important and some not so.

We start with "Love God and love neighbor as you love yourself."

We begin adding in things that seem valid.

We study searching for spirit rather than letter of writings.

We watch for themes that overwhelm details.

We come up with the real Jesus......if we are honest and do not let our own prejudice influence us.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Duh! Jesus said sin no more. So don't sin! Although, I must question, if Jesus' command were so simple why a savior was required at all?

Are you assuming a savior was required?

Where did that come from? Why do we believe that? Is God unable to forgive us without a "savior?"

Why?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

tulc said:

Well me too. I like Paul and I fight for health care for children. So let's not lump groups together ok? You seem to imply that if you like Paul you have abandoned Jesus. I find that...hurtful. Perhaps you could clarify why I shouldn't take offense? After all I have some background in serving the Lord and and been inspired by the writings of Paul (and Luke and Peter and James and John) and haven't turned my back on serving the the poor. Maybe it isn't as cut and dry as I seem to see you making it out to be?

Yes, it's pretty cut and dried. If Paul hadn't started a new religion, people wouldn't be so resigned to sin.

It's great if you fight for equal health care for all children (is that what you said?).

But it doesn't prove anything about the damage Paul has done.

Jefferson had him pegged perfectly.

 

[Tetzel]

tulc said:


Yes, it's pretty cut and dried. If Paul hadn't started a new religion, people wouldn't be so resigned to sin.

Are you without sin?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Are you without sin?

I can't think of anything I've done lately that would qualify as sin.

I'd tell you something from the past, but God has forgotten it and forgiven me and so have I.

God is good that way.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Yep, the testimony of hallucinators.

No, two visions confirmed by subsequent events.
I suppose we could just dispense with 90% of the Hebrew Scriptures as they were the product of hallucinators (i.e. prophets). But that would be what Marcion tried and was firmly rejected.

BTW do we have proof that the incident really happened?

Proof is for mathematicians, not historians.
We have evidence that it happened. It isn't nearly as strong as the evidence
for the existance of Jesus, but not all that much weaker than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

After doing some real research into Paul, it seems that the Pastorals (1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus), Ephesians, 2nd Thessalonians, and maybe Collossians aren't even written by Paul.

Wait a minute... You started this thread with rather strong language and you didn't even know that the Pastorals are considered by many to have been written by somebody else?!?

There's half the work cut out already.

You lost me.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

tulc said:

You seem to imply that if you like Paul you have abandoned Jesus.

If you promote Paul's teachings about grace and sin.....you are part of the problem, not the solution.

If you do good works anyway......I salute you.

What part of Paul's writings inspired you, anyhow?

The stuff that made women second-class citizens?

Was it when he said, "Them that won't work don't get to eat!" (?)

Or......"Cretans are lazy bums!" (?)

Or......"I wish my enemies would castrate themselves!" (?)

Oh, wait.....I know.....it was the false humility in, "I am the greatest of sinners."

Well, he WAS on the road to truth with THAT one.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

All I have here in the desert is the new Crossan book on Paul and "A Myth of Innocence" by Burton Mack.

Crossen might bring interesting data to bear but keep in mind that he essentially rejects any God of interest. The resurrection is a bedtime story as far as he is concerned.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Come now, Doc.......his questions were impertinent and insolent.

His first question was rude, but then he started over, and the rest of his questions seem sincere and quite possibly pertinant

Are you satisfied with those Books or do you want use the power God invested in you to de-canonize any other Books of the Bible?

I have a question for you Nerfdahl.
Do you believe that we are put on this earth by God?
If your answer is yes do you believe that the purpose of a Christian is to glorify God?
Or is there another purpose for our being?

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

No, the problem is Paul and his loyal buddy Luke (who should have been writing for Fantasy and Science Fiction magazine).

Why do you claim that Acts should be classified as SF&F?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

If your answer is yes do you believe that the purpose of a Christian is to glorify God?
Or is there another purpose for our being?

The purpose of ALL people is to love God and neighbor.

That's if you want to go by what Jesus said.

If you want to follow Paul, the purpose would be varied, including self-hate, self-flagellation, bashing women, boasting, lying, submission to sin, encouraging sin, whining, wishing evil on your enemies, confusing your followers to make them dependent and being an annoying nuisance and expecting praise for it.

There's more, but I'm going to let you check it out.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Why do you claim that Acts should be classified as SF&F?

Oh Robert......Acts is full of the most wildly imaginative and unlikely tales since Jack and the Beanstalk.

Luke is talented and imaginative in his shameless promotion of his mentor, Paul.

Surely you can see that just by a cursory reading of the book.

Go for it!

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

ONE gospel is enough if it is TRUE.

Each of the four Gospels is written in different style corresponding to different one of the major Myers-Briggs personality combinations. They get Christ's message across in different ways to different people who think differently.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

You got that info from the Second Letter of Paul to Myers and Briggs, right?

 

[CaDan]

Crossen might bring interesting data to bear but keep in mind that he essentially rejects any God of interest. The resurrection is a bedtime story as far as he is concerned.

Don't be too fast to classify Crossan's cholarship. Have you read "The Cross That Spoke"? It is not as readily available as "The Historical Jesus" or "The Birth of Christianity", but the analysis is quite astute and worth your time if you want a textual analysis of the Passion Narratives.

 

[CaDan]

Are you assuming a savior was required?

Where did that come from? Why do we believe that? Is God unable to forgive us without a "savior?"

Why?

Did our Lord Jesus Christ, for us and for our salvation, come down from Heaven?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Did our Lord Jesus Christ, for us and for our salvation, come down from Heaven?

Is heaven.........up?

 

[Fatality]

Even Peter recognizes Pauls Apostleship, the very person who Jesus ordained as Leader of The Church.


2 Peter 3
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.