stop sinning?

[ItsMillerTime]

I believe that Paul and the rest of the biblical authors agreed that a Christian cannot totally cease from sinning.As Paul wrote in Galatians 5:17, "The flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please." The presence of sin in our flesh prevents us from ceasing totally from sin (cf. Rom. 7:14-25). As we read in 1 Kings 8:46 and 2 Chronicles 6:36 regarding the faithful people of God, "There is no man who does not sin." And as John wrote in exhortation of the Christian's life of continuing repentance, "If we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

Also I believe that the Galatian church believed the could be perfected by their works."Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain -- if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" "Works of the law" ,our works do not perfect us, nor do they lead to our perfection. They are acts of obediece which please God, but they do not make us better. Rather than being the cause of our perfection, good works are the result of the perfecting work of the Holy Spirit (Phil. 2:13).

 

[kel32]

Could someone please explain to me why, if it is possible, why is it so unlikely. Why is it such a rare thing? and in fact why no one is able to achieve this?

Sure...

If we expect to sin, thinking we have to sin, we will sin. We will live life based upon that expectation to sin.

But if we realize that we are dead with Christ since He died as us and we accepted that, then we will realize we are freed from sin. When we know that, we will truly apply that to our lives instead of expecting to sin.

"Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as being dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires. And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness, but present yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons for righteousness." Romans 6:11-13

Present yourself to God. We are alive and we have received power from God to live above sin because He said that we are freed from sin due to our death with Christ. So go to God! Tell Him that you're alive from the dead. The life of resurrection that Jesus lived was the result of His Spirit of resurrection. And since you are risen with Christ, then the same Spirit that raised up Christ from the dead must now quicken you so that you can live above sin.

"If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken your mortal bodies, through his Spirit that dwells in you." Romans 8:11

Paul did say that the victory we have now is comparable and equal to the victory Christ had after He resurrected (Romans 6:8-11). The life we should now live is His resurrection life. But if we do not know that, then we will not offer ourselves to God to receive strength for that life. You must have faith for all God's blessings. And faith comes from hearing the Word, so we must know what the Word says first.

If you expected to sin, then that was what you had faith for. You actually, without knowing it, yielded to sin when you thought you had to sin. Paul said you presented yourself to sin all the while you expected to sin all your life on occasion, when you did not have to. "And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness..." Romans 6:13

I know many people will deny this truth, but it is God's word, not mine...

Stop yielding to sin, because that is exactly what you are doing if you think you cannot live above it. Present yourself to God, expecting His Spirit of resurrection to empower you to live victoriously. Expect the Spirit to lift you up. That is faith. No works are involved. It is just taking God at His Word. God did the work way back at the start of your conversion. Expect victory...
"Jesus answered them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son always remains. So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free." John 8:34-36

"The truth shall set you free"

~peace to all~

 

[kel32]

I believe that Paul and the rest of the biblical authors agreed that a Christian cannot totally cease from sinning.As Paul wrote in Galatians 5:17, "The flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

This passage from Galatians in no way states that "a Christian cannot totally cease from sinning". What it is indeed stating is that the Spirit and the flesh are in opposition to another. Thankfully for us, Christ's work has allowed us to be free from the bondage of sin, so as long as we follow him in all we do, the sinful nature of the flesh has ZERO power over us.

The presence of sin in our flesh prevents us from ceasing totally from sin (cf. Rom. 7:14-25).

Please re-read post #60.

"Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 7:24-25

As we read in 1 Kings 8:46 and 2 Chronicles 6:36 regarding the faithful people of God, "There is no man who does not sin."

OT...they were under the law of sin and death. Thankfully we can live 'in Christ'

And as John wrote in exhortation of the Christian's life of continuing repentance, "If we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

Please re-read post #45.

So, is John contradicting himself when he goes on to say "No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him." 1 John 3:6...and "Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8 ?

Also I believe that the Galatian church believed the could be perfected by their works."Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain -- if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" "Works of the law" ,our works do not perfect us, nor do they lead to our perfection. They are acts of obediece which please God, but they do not make us better. Rather than being the cause of our perfection, good works are the result of the perfecting work of the Holy Spirit (Phil. 2:13).

No one stated that we could be 'perfected by our works'...Such is the work of God

~peace~

 

[nephilimiyr]

Wrong...what happend on the cross was that jesus paid the price for our sins...it wasn't an intervention to stop us from sinning but an act of sacrifice for our sins.

So, you believe that's the only 'result' of the work that Christ did for us?

No I don't believe that's the only result. Results are different compared to purpose. Results are the effects of the purpose. Why did Jesus Christ become man and die on the cross? To save us from our sins as a true and pure sacrifice for them.

We died with Christ, and that means we have experienced the only and single thing that frees us from a sinful bondage - death. And we do not have to sin more so that we can experience more grace.

Right, the sure sign that a christian is who he claims to be is that he sins less, not more. The sign of a christian is that he's showing that he loves to do God's righteousness and he strives to do so at all times. WHEN he does sin he goes to the Lord for forgiveness and repentence. He doesn't make that sin a habit and become a slave over it. This is the power that the Holy Spirit gives us. It is to not become slaves to our sins but to rebuke them, ask forgiveness, and repent.

Grace made us dead to sin altogether. We are delivered from it and its effects. No matter how great the force of sin is, grace can lift us above it so that we will not sin. We must realize that our death with Christ offers us a difference in living. Since we are dead with Christ, we are also risen with him.

Your missing one important fact here Kel. After Jesus had risen from the dead he was in a glorified body. When we become dead with Christ and recieve grace we are still in our sinful (corruptible) bodies. Now as I have stated before, what you say looks good on paper and I would agree it is the word of God that you speak. Yet I have never seen this doctrine, this interpretation, in evidence with anyone. Your silence in answering my question on whether your totally free of sin in that you don't ever sin and will not ever sin again speaks volumes to what I'm saying. Can I assume your silence means that you have sinned since accepting jesus Christ? If so how is this possible if what you claim is correct in that God gives us the power to not sin? Is it because you don't trust God, you don't believe his power is strong enough? For a person who believe's this doctrine I'd have to believe would be glad to proclaim that it is true as in evidence in your life. Without this evidence your interpretations of the scriptures in this matter are suspect to me.


Here's what I see you saying: when we have Christ live inside us it's not possible for us to sin. Once we accept jesus in, he gives us the power to live a totally sin free life. Am I correct?


Now here's what I'm saying: Once we recieve grace and let Christ come in and live in us he does give us the power to live a sin free life. However because of our sinful nature in which we are at war with forever in this human body we will stumble and fall. We can live righteous lives in grace with our God to the point of living for him and worshipping him and walking with him. We may live totally sin free lives for long periods of time but sooner or later sin will enter in. Until we are made like Christ in the glorified body like he is in we constantly need his forgiveness and saving grace. In fact I suppose I could say if I wanted to believe in your belief I would be saying that I don't need Christ's saving grace any longer because I am without sin...

 

[kel32]

Your missing one important fact here Kel. After Jesus had risen from the dead he was in a glorified body. When we become dead with Christ and recieve grace we are still in our sinful (corruptible) bodies....

Neph,

Don't confuse 'perfection' with 'ceasing to sin'. They are quite different. Perfection can only be obtained once we are rid of our 'earthly bodies'. (glorification) While in our 'bodies' we will never reach perfection. But, God has indeed given us the power over sin, through Christ, while we are still in these bodies. Sin is in our flesh. But if you believe you cannot resist it, when you can due to death with Christ that frees you from dominion of sin, then you will unintentionally yield yourself to commit sins.

Your silence in answering my question on whether your totally free of sin in that you don't ever sin and will not ever sin again speaks volumes to what I'm saying. Can I assume your silence means that you have sinned since accepting jesus Christ? If so how is this possible if what you claim is correct in that God gives us the power to not sin? Is it because you don't trust God, you don't believe his power is strong enough? For a person who believe's this doctrine I'd have to believe would be glad to proclaim that it is true as in evidence in your life. Without this evidence your interpretations of the scriptures in this matter are suspect to me.

Silence doesn't necessarily 'speak volumes'.

I shall humbly answer your question by stating that I absolutely have faith in God that He has given us the power over sin. "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit." Gal. 5:24-25. The Spirit leads me in all I do. I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me.

Here's what I see you saying: when we have Christ live inside us it's not possible for us to sin..

No...I never said that 'it's not possible'.

Once we accept jesus in, he gives us the power to live a totally sin free life. Am I correct?

Yes...you are correct.

Now here's what I'm saying: Once we recieve grace and let Christ come in and live in us he does give us the power to live a sin free life. However because of our sinful nature in which we are at war with forever in this human body we will stumble and fall.

I totally agree with all of this, except I would change 'we WILL stumble and fall' to 'we MAY stumble and fall'.

We can live righteous lives in grace with our God to the point of living for him and worshipping him and walking with him. We may live totally sin free lives for long periods of time but sooner or later sin will enter in.

Sin will only enter in if you 'believe' it will.

Absolute faith in God that He will give you every means to overcome it is the key.

In fact I suppose I could say if I wanted to believe in your belief I would be saying that I don't need Christ's saving grace any longer because I am without sin...

This is contrary to everything i've stated in my posts.

It is because of Christ that we have victory over sin.

~peace~

 

[nephilimiyr]

Kel32 I have enjoyed this discussion with you and appreciate your honesty, forthrightness, and willingness to explain your belief. As I see it we disagree on one thing and it's come down to "we may stumble" and "we will stumble". I wont take away anyones belief in the common goal that is all of our's to walk as Jesus Christ did and being totally free and without sin. Our hope is to never sin again and in that I wish you blessings in our Lord!

neph

 

[Symes]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore °, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another °, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth ° also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot ° sin, because he is born of God.

All through theses verses God is saying not to sin. Then He says but if you do sin we have an advocate with the Father. Now that advocate with the father is Jesus. It is not Mary, it is not another man. It is "Jesus Christ the righteous"

This is very important to remember who our advocate is.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "mediator" or "advovate" is Jesus.

 

[kel32]

Kel32 I have enjoyed this discussion with you and appreciate your honesty, forthrightness, and willingness to explain your belief. As I see it we disagree on one thing and it's come down to "we may stumble" and "we will stumble". I wont take away anyones belief in the common goal that is all of our's to walk as Jesus Christ did and being totally free and without sin. Our hope is to never sin again and in that I wish you blessings in our Lord!

neph

God Bless

~peace~

 

[LordsRanger]

After being on this forum for a few months, i've noticed that there seems to be differences of opinion on the topic of 'ceasing to sin'.

My question is simply: "Do you believe that through Christ one can completely stop sinning while here in the world"?

~peace~

No, because then we wouldn't be sinners, therefore we wouldn't need Jesus. For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. To deny that you sin and to deny that you are a sinner is denying an integral part of our beliefs as Christians. If it were possible to stop completely, God would have expected us to, and therefore would not have sent his only son to die for us. To deny that it is impossible to stop sinning is denying Jesus, not to mention just plain naive.


-LR

 

[kel32]

No, because then we wouldn't be sinners, therefore we wouldn't need Jesus. For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. To deny that you sin and to deny that you are a sinner is denying an integral part of our beliefs as Christians. If it were possible to stop completely, God would have expected us to, and therefore would not have sent his only son to die for us. To deny that it is impossible to stop sinning is denying Jesus, not to mention just plain naive.


-LR

Hi LR,

I'd recommend reading the many posts in this thread. The whole point is that, no, without Christ, it is impossible to stop sinning. But because of Christ, we have the power of God working through us, and we are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness.

Christ's work gave us victory over sin. Thank God!

~peace~

 

[LordsRanger]

The whole point is that, no, without Christ, it is impossible to stop sinning. But because of Christ, we have the power of God working through us, and we are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness.

Christ's work gave us victory over sin. Thank God!

~peace~

He has given us victory over sin, yes. However, all are sinners, and although we may not sin uncontrollably and unknowingly like those without Christ, we are still...sinners. Heathens? No more. The slaves have been freed in this context. What I have said does not directly contradict most of the points being made, at least I think. But I would like to know.


-LR

 

[kel32]

He has given us victory over sin, yes. However, all are sinners, and although we may not sin uncontrollably and unknowingly like those without Christ, we are still...sinners. Heathens? No more. The slaves have been freed in this context. What I have said does not directly contradict most of the points being made, at least I think. But I would like to know.


-LR

LR,

You state that He has given us victory over sin. Absolutely agreed. Just what do you see that 'victory' as being?

I personally like this definition of 'victory': 'achievement of mastery or success in a struggle or endeavor against odds or difficulties'

If it were possible to stop completely, God would have expected us to, and therefore would not have sent his only son to die for us.

Ah, but He does expect us to stop. For He has given us the means to stop, by sending His only son to die for us.

If you could cite scripture that states that following the leading of the Spirit will result in sin, I would appreciate it.

~peace~

 

[nephilimiyr]

You state that He has given us victory over sin. Absolutely agreed. Just what do you see that 'victory' as being?

I see it as the victory over the wages of sin. Through Christ we are victors over death, because we may still sin in our walk with God doesn't mean we are condemned to death. As Jesus Christ at his resurrection won the victory over death so will we!!!

1 John 5:16-17, If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

I personally like this definition of 'victory': 'achievement of mastery or success in a struggle or endeavor against odds or difficulties'

And death is the ultimate strugle. We know we we are victors over this because Jesus Christ is and he is the one who gave us power to become the sons of God.

Ah, but He does expect us to stop. For He has given us the means to stop, by sending His only son to die for us.

Actually if you believe that God expects us to stop sinning I'm going to have to ask you to what end does he go? Are you of the belief that if one believe's in Jesus Christ as being Lord and savior of their lives yet sins and at that very moment dies and because of that one sign of weakness the person is condemned to hell because of it? LOL, "expect" is a very strong word you chose here and I would like you to explain yourself with this. I humblely disagree but strongly do so as well! Jesus Christ doesn't expect us to be like him but does expect us to try to be. You are placeing way too many demands on people they can not live up to Kel32. It is much more harmful to teach the type of doctrine yopu are speaking of then the one I am. What you are doing is saying that in order to get to heaven you can not sin at all, you can not sin in the least, you have to be perfect in order to get to heaven as Jesus was perfect. That is totally wrong. The only thing a person has to do to get to heaven is accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. You are in fact adding to the requirement. Your saying that unless a person is totally without sin he will not get to heaven. If you disagree with me on my assertation of what you said then please explain what "expect" means.

 

[kel32]

Actually if you believe that God expects us to stop sinning I'm going to have to ask you to what end does he go? Are you of the belief that if one believe's in Jesus Christ as being Lord and savior of their lives yet sins and at that very moment dies and because of that one sign of weakness the person is condemned to hell because of it? LOL, "expect" is a very strong word you chose here and I would like you to explain yourself with this. I humblely disagree but strongly do so as well! Jesus doesn't expect us to stop sinning completely but does expect us to repent after we sin.

Neph,

As you surely would agree, God sees the hearts of all His children. If one were leading a life obedient to God's will, and, to use your example, "sins and at that very moment dies", I wouldn't hesitate to say that He would very likely grant forgiveness to them. I don't believe God would 'condemn them to hell' as you put it.

"My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one." 1 John 2:1

As far as God expecting us to live without sin, I do indeed believe He does. He has, through Christ, given us everything we need to overcome our sinful desires, and lead a righteous life, pleasing to Him. Like Adam and Eve before the fall.

"whoever claims to abide in him ought to live just as he lived." 1 John 2:6

My entire purpose of this thread was to hopefully open someone's eyes to a truth that many are not aware of. I am only a humble vessel for God; and any way He can use me to reach out to others, I will freely be at His beck and call.

The most important point of this entire thread is to have faith that God can and will give you the power to be completely victorious over sin while in this body, in this world. He has already given us the means. We just need to believe...

"that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation resulting in knowledge of him. May the eyes of your hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones" Ephesians 1:17-18

~peace always~

 

[nephilimiyr]

Neph,

As you surely would agree, God sees the hearts of all His children. If one were leading a life obedient to God's will, and, to use your example, "sins and at that very moment dies", I wouldn't hesitate to say that He would very likely grant forgiveness to them. I don't believe God would 'condemn them to hell' as you put it.

"My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one." 1 John 2:1

Exactly...God doesn't expect us to not ever sin but expects us to always try not to. He expects us to live a life that is pleasing to him and that being striveing to live under his commands.

My entire purpose of this thread was to hopefully open someone's eyes to a truth that many are not aware of.

That is odvious to me.

I am only a humble vessel for God; and any way He can use me to reach out to others, I will freely be at His beck and call.

I feel the same way. I am only a vessel for God; and anyway he can use me to calm and comfort people with learning such doctrines as is in this thread I am more than willing to be at his beck and call.

The most important point of this entire thread is to have faith that God can and will give you the power to be completely victorious over sin while in this body, in this world. He has already given us the means. We just need to believe...

Why is that so important to you? The condition of salvation isn't that we become totally free of sin but that we accept our Lord and savior. I believe your placeing too much emphasis on sin and the lack there of rather than the sacrifice that our Lord and savior did for us. The apostle John wrote what he wrote in his first Epistle to comfort believers in their sins, not to condemn them.

 

[Yebo]

Kel32 wrote:

"The most important point of this entire thread is to have faith that God can and will give you the power to be completely victorious over sin while in this body, in this world. He has already given us the means. We just need to believe...

"that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation resulting in knowledge of him. May the eyes of your hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones" Ephesians 1:17-18 "


Greetings from a sunny South Africa

This was and still is quite an interesting discussion. Allow me to provide you with my humble opinion.

THe way I see it is that everything boils down to one thing and one thing alone in this tread and that is the following: Are you sin orientated or are you righteousness orientated?

As far as I know righteousness means to be in right standing with God. Right standing means that there is NOTHING wrong with me. It makes no provision for concepts like maybe, a little, a hint or even a thought. It simply means that I met the requirements laid down.

Abram believed the Lord and He (the Lord) credited it to him as righteousness. Did Abram sinned after that? Yes he did - but he was righteousness orientated and not sin orientated. Paul said in Romans 1:17 that the righteous shall live by faith. Furthermore he indicated that 3:22 that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

As long as I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ I fully qualify to be declared righteous, hence I can be without sin. Does that mean that I do not sin - NO but with faith in Him I can and will overcome sin and get to a position where I will be regarded as totally sinfree from a sin orientated perspective.

Please note that I am not advocating a point of view where you are not supposed to ask for forgiveness for sins committed. Of course you will have to repent and turn away from it.

Be BLESSED by the BEST and stay within the confinements of PEACE

 

[kel32]

Why is that so important to you? The condition of salvation isn't that we become totally free of sin but that we accept our Lord and savior. I believe your placeing too much emphasis on sin and the lack there of rather than the sacrifice that our Lord and savior did for us. The apostle John wrote what he wrote in his first Epistle to comfort believers in their sins, not to condemn them.

Neph,

It is important to me because it's important to know God's truth.

Sin separates us from God. The more faith we have in Him that He will lead us to completely overcome sin, the closer we can grow in our relationship with Him...

~peace~

 

[Curt]

If there is any christian here who believes he does not ever sin and will not ever sin again in this earthly body we have now then let him come forward here and proclaim this to us. I want to hear him speak!

My friend this is total arrogance.

We will all answer To Christ, and to Him alone. Jesus said we will do all things He did, and that's exactly what it means, and those poll results fulfill The Scriptures telling us of the narrow way to salvation, and that few enter while the way is broad that leads to hell, and there are many that will enter therby. There is not one Scripture in The Whole Bible that tells us we can't live sin free while here.

 

[nephilimiyr]

My friend this is total arrogance.

What I find arrogant, and I'm sure Jesus does too, are people who say they're without sin when they have sinned and will do so again.

We will all answer To Christ, and to Him alone. Jesus said we will do all things He did, and that's exactly what it means, and those poll results fulfill The Scriptures telling us of the narrow way to salvation, and that few enter while the way is broad that leads to hell, and there are many that will enter therby. There is not one Scripture in The Whole Bible that tells us we can't live sin free while here.

Since you feel the need to show the 60% of us that voted no that we are condemned to hell for not believeing the way you believe, something I find arrogant as well, could you answer my question I have posed for the people viewing this thread on whether you sin or not? It's a yes or no question Curt and one I'm looking forward to hearing you answer.

neph

 

[nephilimiyr]

Neph,

It is important to me because it's important to know God's truth.

Sin separates us from God. The more faith we have in Him that He will lead us to completely overcome sin, the closer we can grow in our relationship with Him...

~peace~

I have no doubt in my mind and spirit that God will lead us to complete and total victory over both sin and death. I just don't believe that it will come in this lifetime or body.