stop sinning?

[nephilimiyr]

Neph,

Could you please cite scripture that states that "anyone in this sinful flesh of ours will never be totally free of sin until Jesus comes back and changes us"

~peace~

1 John 3:2, Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
We will not be like jesus untill he comes again. When jesus comes again what is one of the things that is supposed to happen? Our bodies are going to change from corruptible to incorruptible. When we become like him we also become totally and completely without sin.

Also look at 1 John 1:8-10, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Quite simply, if we ever say that we don't ever sin then we deceive ourselves and we are being untruthful.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Yes! Absolutely and 100%
If you walk according to the inclinations and abilities of your reborn spirit you will never ever sin again.
This is what it is all about.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I would disagree with your definition of "slavery"...

Habit or addiction? No...completely subservient to a dominating influence? Yes.

Those who are in Christ are in righteousness and by walking in the Spirit we are the children of God as Jesus has made it possible. Even though we sin and fail if we ask for forgiveness Jesus will forgive. If the basic direction and effort of the christian is in doing righteousness then we are righteous in Christ. Those who don't know Christ or that have rejected him live in sin. Those who are of the devil live in sin and do the works of evil. Yet those who are born of the Spirit do not habitually live in the practise of sin, but walk in righteousness. it does not mean they never sin but the main thrust of their lives is toward God.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Yes! Absolutely and 100%
If you walk according to the inclinations and abilities of your reborn spirit you will never ever sin again.
This is what it is all about.

1 John 1:8-10, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Quite simply, if we ever say that we don't ever sin then we deceive ourselves and we are being untruthful.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

1 John 1:8-10, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Quite simply, if we ever say that we don't ever sin then we deceive ourselves and we are being untruthful.

1Jo 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This is a verse that I did understand for a number of years. Something was wrong, and I could never quite comprehend what was being said. On the one hand, I knew we were new creatures, created in Christ Jesus into good works, partakers of the divine nature, after the image of God (2 Cor 5:17-21, Eph 2:10, 2 Pet 1:4, Col 3:10). I knew that because we have this new divine nature, which is the spiritual seed of God, we cannot sin (1 John 3:9, 5:18). We are good trees that cannot put forth evil fruit (Matt 7:18).
So it bothered me for a long time. One night, in the wee hours of the morning, I was in fellowship with the Lord and He just opened up something to me.
Read the verses leading up to 1 John 1:8:

1Jo 1:
5 This is the Message which we have heard from the Lord Jesus and now deliver to you--God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness.
6 If, while we are living in darkness, we profess to have fellowship with Him, we speak falsely and are not adhering to the truth.

The key word is IF.
If we are in darkness and say we still are in fellowship with God, then we are lying. But we are not always in darkness. The normal Christian life is to be in the light with Him.

1Jo 1:
7 But if we live in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, cleanses us from all sin.

These verses about being sinful as well as those that follow, only pertain to people who find themselves in darkness. If you find yourself in darkness, and claim that you did not get there by sinning, then the truth is not in you. The only way believers get into darkness is by sinning! That is why he says:

1Jo 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

In other words, if you find yourself in darkness, and if claim that you have not sinned, then you deceive yourself!

Can you see the difference here? He is not saying that sinning and being in darkness is the normal state of the believer. He is just saying that sin is the only way a person gets into darkness.

 

[ps139]

I believe that some people can do this, but very few.
In Romans Paul mentions that he does what he does not want, he does not do what he wants. I think that the grace of God can mold these two conflicting wills into one, which is Gods will. Note that even Paul had not achieved this (yet). I believe that his multitude of sins in the past made this progression really slow. Not to say he was not forgiven, of course he was, but the effects of that sin still lingered. Someone like John, on the other hand, I believe probably achieved this.

It is not a requisite to be saved at all, I believe God desires this for everyone but we are so weak that often we will give into temptation.

The Catholic belief in purgatory is that it is a final purification for whoever has not completely stopped sinning, whoever is not 100% in tune with the will of God. This would be most people who are in Christ. Some I believe are purified before their death, and go straight to Heaven, their minds and souls do not need to be "cleaned up"

 

[nephilimiyr]

1Jo 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This is a verse that I did understand for a number of years. Something was wrong, and I could never quite comprehend what was being said. On the one hand, I knew we were new creatures, created in Christ Jesus into good works, partakers of the divine nature, after the image of God (2 Cor 5:17-21, Eph 2:10, 2 Pet 1:4, Col 3:10). I knew that because we have this new divine nature, which is the spiritual seed of God, we cannot sin (1 John 3:9, 5:18). We are good trees that cannot put forth evil fruit (Matt 7:18).
So it bothered me for a long time. One night, in the wee hours of the morning, I was in fellowship with the Lord and He just opened up something to me.
Read the verses leading up to 1 John 1:8:

1Jo 1:
5 This is the Message which we have heard from the Lord Jesus and now deliver to you--God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness.
6 If, while we are living in darkness, we profess to have fellowship with Him, we speak falsely and are not adhering to the truth.

The key word is IF.
If we are in darkness and say we still are in fellowship with God, then we are lying. But we are not always in darkness. The normal Christian life is to be in the light with Him.

Ok but I see the key word as being "living" not "if".

Those who are in Christ are in righteousness and by walking in the Spirit we are the children of God as Jesus has made it possible. Even though we sin and fail if we ask for forgiveness Jesus will forgive. If the basic direction and effort of the christian is in doing righteousness then we are righteous in Christ. Those who don't know Christ or that have rejected him live in sin. Those who are of the devil live in sin and do the works of evil. Yet those who are born of the Spirit do not habitually live in the practise of sin, but walk in righteousness. it does not mean they never sin but the main thrust of their lives is toward God.

The normal christian life is to be walking in the light with him, I agree but can a christian do this for the rest of his life? Ahhhhh...see now there's the question. Your arguement and Kels arguement to me looks good on paper but is it workable? I can tell you I have not met one person nor ever heard of one person ever haveing acheived this constant walk without sin. Theoretically it may be true but even the apostles Paul and Peter sinned after recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Jimmy Swagart is a prime example of someone who preached this type of message. Looked what we all found out about him...

Can you see the difference here? He is not saying that sinning and being in darkness is the normal state of the believer. He is just saying that sin is the only way a person gets into darkness.

He also isn't equateing the two as meaning the same thing either.

 

[praying]

"The normal christian life is to be walking in the light with him, I agree but can a christian do this for the rest of his life? Ahhhhh...see now there's the question. Your arguement and Kels arguement to me looks good on paper but is it workable? I can tell you I have not met one person nor ever heard of one person ever haveing acheived this constant walk without sin. Theoretically it may be true but even the apostles Paul and Peter sinned after recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. "

I agree with this 100%, that is why said the only way would be for a tangible divine intervention to stop us from sinning.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I just heard Ronald Reagan died tonight....my prayers are with the family.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I agree with this 100%, that is why said the only way would be for a tangible divine intervention to stop us from sinning.

And the tangible intervention that I believe is necessary is the second comeing.

 

[ydouxist]

For years I believed I would always sin.

It is a defeated attitude. We must never accept it
as part of life. If we walk in the spirit we wont gratify
the desires of our flesh.

1 John 3

6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin,
because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

 

[kel32]

Yes! Absolutely and 100%
If you walk according to the inclinations and abilities of your reborn spirit you will never ever sin again.
This is what it is all about.

~peace~

 

[kel32]

And the tangible intervention that I believe is necessary is the second comeing.

Wrong...this 'tangible intervention' happened on the cross...

~peace~

 

[honeybee2]

Yes, once a person is born again, it is not only possible, but desireable to live without sinning. Is is likely? No. But it is possible, and we are to make every effort to succeed at it. We are warned too many times in the Word that we must deny ourself, we must die to our flesh, we must take up our cross and deny self, we must overcome. These are all terms used in the context of sinning, and yes, it is always intentional to sin. If a man knows to do right, and does it not, to him it is sin. And if we are doing something wrong, the Spirit of God within us will convince us of our sin.
peace

 

[nephilimiyr]

Wrong...this 'tangible intervention' happened on the cross...

~peace~

Wrong...what happend on the cross was that jesus paid the price for our sins...it wasn't an intervention to stop us from sinning but an act of sacrifice for our sins.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Yes, once a person is born again, it is not only possible, but desireable to live without sinning. Is is likely? No. But it is possible, and we are to make every effort to succeed at it. We are warned too many times in the Word that we must deny ourself, we must die to our flesh, we must take up our cross and deny self, we must overcome. These are all terms used in the context of sinning, and yes, it is always intentional to sin. If a man knows to do right, and does it not, to him it is sin. And if we are doing something wrong, the Spirit of God within us will convince us of our sin.
peace

Could someone please explain to me why, if it is possible, why is it so unlikely. Why is it such a rare thing? and in fact why no one is able to achieve this?

I see alot of people saying it's possible but no one has yet stepped forward to say that they have acheive this sinless state of being. Kel has continued to ignor answering my question, are the rest of you going to also?

 

[praying]

And the tangible intervention that I believe is necessary is the second comeing.

I agree!

 

[ItsMillerTime]

If I am being perfectly honest, I don't see how anyone could say that we could no longer sin after reading the demands of scripture. Do all to the glory of God? Take every thought captive to Christ? Who can honestly say that we can do that? To say that we can no longer sin is to say that we can live as Jesus did. Should this be our goal? Absolutely! Will we every reach it on this earth in this depraved body? Absolutely not!

I dont even think our focus should be on not sinning. It should be on God, experiencing Him, knowing Him, and loving Him.

I think it is safe to say that the only way to not sin is by the Spirit and deeply experiencing and knowing God. I think it is also safe to say that nobody has ever experienced God more than Moses and Paul. Moses didn't stop sinning, its why he didnt get to go into the promised land. Paul didn't stop sinning, read Romans 7.

Seeing God's holiness makes us see our filthiness.

out

 

[kel32]

Wrong...what happend on the cross was that jesus paid the price for our sins...it wasn't an intervention to stop us from sinning but an act of sacrifice for our sins.

So, you believe that's the only 'result' of the work that Christ did for us?

Let's take a peek at what Paul has to say...

"How can we who died to sin yet live in it? Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin. For a dead person has been absolved from sin. If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. We know that Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more; death no longer has power over him. As to his death, he died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God. Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as being dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus." Romans 6:2-11

(winking smilie mine)

So, what is Paul saying here?

We died with Christ, and that means we have experienced the only and single thing that frees us from a sinful bondage - death. And we do not have to sin more so that we can experience more grace. Grace made us dead to sin altogether. We are delivered from it and its effects. No matter how great the force of sin is, grace can lift us above it so that we will not sin. We must realize that our death with Christ offers us a difference in living. Since we are dead with Christ, we are also risen with him.

~peace~

 

[kel32]

I think it is safe to say that the only way to not sin is by the Spirit and deeply experiencing and knowing God.

I don't think anyone said that we could do it on our own.

I think it is also safe to say that nobody has ever experienced God more than Moses and Paul. Moses didn't stop sinning, its why he didnt get to go into the promised land. Paul didn't stop sinning, read Romans 7.

Take a closer look at Romans 7. We can see that Paul wanted to stop a life of doing evil, or committing sins. He watched himself commit sins when he wanted to do good; he wanted to obey the Law. And he realized that the root of the life of sin was not himself as such, but something in his flesh. The root was sin. Sin made the flesh a problem for Law to instill righteousness in us, since sin was in the flesh.

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:21-23

Whenever Paul read a commandment, and tried to obey that commandment and do good, evil was right there with him, and made him do evil instead. It happened every time. It was a miserable repeat of failure every time he tried to do good. He delighted in the Law of God and wanted to obey it, but another Law was at work within him. And it caused opposite deeds to work that the good Law of God spoke against. It warred against the Law of God. And it won the war and made Paul sin rather than do good.

So, Paul cried out: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:24

Who will help Paul be free from a life of sinning, when he wanted to do good? This life of sinning is a life of dying. He said formerly that he would try to obey the Law, but the Law which was meant to give life, caused death instead (Romans 7:10). His was a body of death. How could he be free from it? His flesh contained sin, and there was no other way to be free from such a lifestyle of sinning other than to be free from that body itself. Death was the only answer. But what good would it be to die? We could never hope to do good by experiencing death.

So, it's looking like Paul has a dilemna. Somebody else had to deliver Paul, for he certainly couldn't deliver himself...

Romans 7:25: "I thank God..." God could deliver him. Paul could thank God, for God is the one who can deliver us from such bondage. How? "...through Jesus Christ our Lord"

That is what Romans 6 tried to teach us. We died with Christ. And it was this means that God used to deliver us. When Paul wanted to stop sinning and stop committing the evil, rather than the good that he wanted to do, God delivered him, and God did it through Christ.

~peace~