Starting to get into Precision .22 shooting...

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I have been building up a rifle based on a CZ455 Super Match with a MDT Oryx Chassis, a Riton 6 x24 scope, a custom made bag rider built by a guy in Quebec Canada., and a cheap Amazon Carbon Fiber Bipod. I have done a trigger job on it and it is currently about 1 lb, but drop-safe. Very satisfying Keeping everything in groups less than 2" and occasionally less than 1".

Future upgrades I am considering is a heavy barrel, extended bolt handle with tactical knob, and If I start shooting out to 200, a 10 or 20 MOA rail.

We shoot our "Canadian GunNutz .22 100 yard Challenge. The official target is 8.5 x 11 with 4 targets, upper right is for sighting/fowling/cold shots. We fire 10 shots at each of the other three, and measure the groups from centre to centre. The target below was shot with CCI Std Velocity. Best group that day was 1.320".

I'm starting to work with some ammo a bit more expensive, but am waiting for our range to reopen following some welcome upgrades!

Anyone else doing this type of shooting?

 

[AlexB23]

I have been building up a rifle based on a CZ455 Super Match with a MDT Oryx Chassis, a Riton 6 x24 scope, a custom made bag rider built by a guy in Quebec Canada., and a cheap Amazon Carbon Fiber Bipod. I have done a trigger job on it and it is currently about 1 lb, but drop-safe. Very satisfying Keeping everything in groups less than 2" and occasionally less than 1".

Future upgrades I am considering is a heavy barrel, extended bolt handle with tactical knob, and If I start shooting out to 200, a 10 or 20 MOA rail.

We shoot our "Canadian GunNutz .22 100 yard Challenge. The official target is 8.5 x 11 with 4 targets, upper right is for sighting/fowling/cold shots. We fire 10 shots at each of the other three, and measure the groups from centre to centre. The target below was shot with CCI Std Velocity. Best group that day was 1.320".

I'm starting to work with some ammo a bit more expensive, but am waiting for our range to reopen following some welcome upgrades!

Anyone else doing this type of shooting?

View attachment 353690
View attachment 353691

This is cool. Even though I am not a hunter or gun owner (so, I have never done this), it is fascinating to see where these guns are made. According to Wikipedia, the CZ 455 is made in the Czech Republic. As a man born in Europe, it puts a smile on my face when stuff is made in Europe. Also, congrats on getting a 1.869" average distance from the bullseye. Not sure if that is good or not, but from 100 yds, that seems impressive. How does your average grouping do at 50 yards, or 150 yards? If possible, I can produce a trend line for you (given different distances), and estimate your average grouping at 200 yards. I would expect your grouping to be around 4" at a distance of 200 yards, assuming a linear relationship.

So, when scoring or getting the measurements from the target practice, do you use a ruler to measure the distance from the center of the target to each impact, and then take the averages? Is scoring done by computer vision (camera) or manually?

Czech Republic:

Czech Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thanks,

These rifles trace their way back the production of Military arms in Czechoslovakia in the City of Brno; I have a Brno #2 rifle built in 1963 and while not identical, the bolts will interchange and will work in each rifle. I have owned other Brno and CZ rifles and love them all.

I also have a Zastava rifle built in Serbia, beautiful and accurate.

The average is OK buth the lower left on at 1.32, is pretty good for basic ammo.

 

[AlexB23]

Thanks,

These rifles trace their way back the production of Military arms in Czechoslovakia in the City of Brno; I have a Brno #2 rifle built in 1963 and while not identical, the bolts will interchange and will work in each rifle. I have owned other Brno and CZ rifles and love them all.

I also have a Zastava rifle built in Serbia, beautiful and accurate.

The average is OK buth the lower left on at 1.32, is pretty good for basic ammo.

You are welcome. Ahh, makes me so proud to be born in Bulgaria (1100 km / 700 mi from Czechia, 400 km / 250 mi from Serbia), even though Bulgaria's economy sucks. Glad that my loving parents adopted me out of that country and into the US. What standard are these bolts from the Brno rifle and CZ rifle (yes, I know 0% about guns), if there is such thing as a standard for that? How do these mid-20th century rifles compare to the ones used by NATO countries in the 2020s? 1.32 inches seem good.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You are welcome. Ahh, makes me so proud to be born in Bulgaria (1100 km / 700 mi from Czechia, 400 km / 250 mi from Serbia), even though Bulgaria's economy sucks. Glad that my loving parents adopted me out of that country and into the US. What standard are these bolts from the Brno rifle and CZ rifle (yes, I know 0% about guns), if there is such thing as a standard for that? How do these mid-20th century rifles compare to the ones used by NATO countries in the 2020s? 1.32 inches seem good.

All reputable firearms companies purpose build arms. Accuracy and precision are relative. My model 1896 Swedish Mauser built in Obendorf "Long Rifle" built in 1900 (yes, 124 years ago in the best all-round sporting calibre (my opinion) 6.5 x 55 is an absolute tack driver easily shoots , 1" at 100 yards. It's newer little sister, built in 1944, despite it's shorter barrel, shoots well enough, but Husqvarna's war-time triggers were very heavy, the German Obendorf ones are more like a target trigger.

Modern military stuff range from little rifles with 9" barrels up to full blown sniper rifles. Each one accurate and precise enough for the jobs at hand.

Regarding .22s, most companies build excellent target rifles (Anschutz, CZ, Savage Toz, Bergara, Tika, Zastava, Henry, etc) and sporting arms; most also build cheaper plinkers.

Companies like Zastava rely on big military contracts for income; presently, there are few if any sporting arms being built by them presently. Too bad, they were good value and built nicer than pretty much anything here in NA.

With CZ the bolt design was good enough that very few changes were made until recently; new changes incorporated a shorter bolt throw (60 vs 90 degrees, which speeds up reloading, and a more logical safety (for north americans) rather than the older bolt mooted safety lever which worked just fine imo. The barrels used in the 455 and 457 are universally changeable by the owner. Some european countries limit the number of serial numbers one can own (firearms); along with magazine adaptors a .22 long rifle can be changed to a .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire or a .17 HMR. You do need to resight after a barrel change due to point of impact shift due to the different ballistics.

 

[AlexB23]

All reputable firearms companies purpose build arms. Accuracy and precision are relative. My model 1896 Swedish Mauser built in Obendorf "Long Rifle" built in 1900 (yes, 124 years ago in the best all-round sporting calibre (my opinion) 6.5 x 55 is an absolute tack driver easily shoots , 1" at 100 yards. It's newer little sister, built in 1944, despite it's shorter barrel, shoots well enough, but Husqvarna's war-time triggers were very heavy, the German Obendorf ones are more like a target trigger.

Modern military stuff range from little rifles with 9" barrels up to full blown sniper rifles. Each one accurate and precise enough for the jobs at hand.

Regarding .22s, most companies build excellent target rifles (Anschutz, CZ, Savage Toz, Bergara, Tika, Zastava, Henry, etc) and sporting arms; most also build cheaper plinkers.

Companies like Zastava rely on big military contracts for income; presently, there are few if any sporting arms being built by them presently. Too bad, they were good value and built nicer than pretty much anything here in NA.

With CZ the bolt design was good enough that very few changes were made until recently; new changes incorporated a shorter bolt throw (60 vs 90 degrees, which speeds up reloading, and a more logical safety (for north americans) rather than the older bolt mooted safety lever which worked just fine imo. The barrels used in the 455 and 457 are universally changeable by the owner. Some european countries limit the number of serial numbers one can own (firearms); along with magazine adaptors a .22 long rifle can be changed to a .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire or a .17 HMR. You do need to resight after a barrel change due to point of impact shift due to the different ballistics.

View attachment 353753

Whew, guns are complicated stuff, as each model of gun is specialized for different war-time operation at the time each gun was developed from what I understand now. 1 inch at 100 yards is pretty good for a gun that is over 5x my age. Also, it is amazing how that 6.5 mm cartridge (according to Wikipedia) was designed in 1894, and is still being made in 2024. 130 years and still goin' strong. The only issue with that 6.5 mm cartridge, is that it is not standardized as NATO ones are. In one second, one of these 6.5 mm projectiles can go almost a kilometer.

There is one company that I recognize: Husqvarna. They make power tools nowadays, including battery powered tools.

But hey, thank you for the info on all these different types of rifles. Ahh, makes me glad I am not a hunter or target practice guy, cos memorizing all of these measurements and model numbers would be a pain. We do agree that the European made stuff is superior to North American made stuff. It is time for North America to step up their game.

When it comes to barrel changes and resighting, is there a way for resighting to be done using computers or lasers, to make the job easier for you, instead of manually resighting it? I have heard that sighting a rifle is a pain.

 

[Unqualified]

It’s not a pain if you know what you’re doing and have a sighter.

I had a lever action 22. But no bang for the buck. I pumped it for an hour and got a tired arm. Not that accurate either. Just my opinion. I like a little more recoil so I only shoot a box at most. More often so shooting more. But it’s not been much more often.

Nice build. A single shot I guess. Set up for accuracy. I can’t hit anything @100 with a 22. So what you doing with standard ammo is darn good. Hoping to get that with my 6.5. But it’s off to find a load for it. I had a load that shot good but a little over max. Only sign was flat primers.

 

[AlexB23]

It’s not a pain if you know what you’re doing and have a sighter.

I had a lever action 22. But no bang for the buck. I pumped it for an hour and got a tired arm. Not that accurate either. Just my opinion. I like a little more recoil so I only shoot a box at most. More often so shooting more. But it’s not been much more often.

Nice build. A single shot I guess. Set up for accuracy. I can’t hit anything @100 with a 22. So what you doing with standard ammo is darn good. Hoping to get that with my 6.5. But it’s off to find a load for it. I had a load that shot good but a little over max. Only sign was flat primers.

I wish you luck on this stuff. Have you thought about using a laser sight, as lasers should make the job easier, and increase your accuracy? In the movies, the guns always have lasers and sights with cool graphics displayed on the lenses (a HUD maybe). I am just a man in his mid-20s who would never own a firearm, but want to help you guys excel at your hobby, and I hope that digital technology can be used to help you guys out.

In 2013, engineers went to the extreme, and built a Linux-powered scope that uses a HUD display to automatically track a target, such as a deer. Sadly, the scope is only available for TrackingPoint branded firearms, and is overly complex:

Real-world aimbot: The $17,000 rifle with a Linux-powered scope

At CES 2013, thanks to a company called TrackingPoint, hunting rifles can now be considered a piece of consumer electronics. Starting at $17,000, TrackingPoint is launching a range of Precision Guided Firearms (PGFs) that use a Linux-powered scope and other advanced technologies to provide...

www.extremetech.com

 

[Unqualified]

No, I don’t any to go that far. I have a green laser but it’s only good to 25 yds in the daytime. A friend used one to practice pistol, she was on a team. They are limited for this purpose, unlike the movies. But mines green.

Are those HUD scopes good for hunting? Yeah seems complex. I worked all the complexities out of mine. Need some accurate ammo now. I’d settle for an 8 inch group on steel @200 on one of them- black powder.

mister rohfreitsch where are you. It seems like you pick up a new project like once a year. I’m kinda like that too. Just have to have something new. But I’m trying to tone it down. So expensive!

 

[AlexB23]

No, I don’t any to go that far. I have a green laser but it’s only good to 25 yds in the daytime. A friend used one to practice pistol, she was on a team. They are limited for this purpose, unlike the movies. But mines green.

Are those HUD scopes good for hunting? Yeah seems complex. I worked all the complexities out of mine. Need some accurate ammo now. I’d settle for an 8 inch group on steel @200 on one of them- black powder.

mister rohfreitsch where are you. It seems like you pick up a new project like once a year. I’m kinda like that too. Just have to have something new. But I’m trying to tone it down. So expensive!

Yep, of course Hollywood has to make it seem that these lasers work at 1/2 mile distance it seems. These smart HUD scopes are new tech, and barely exist except for that one rifle, so I am not sure if they are good for hunting, but the technology has been demonstrated to work (but costs as much as a used car).

For accurate projectiles, I recommend getting the ones that are more expensive, as in made in Europe, North America or Japan, and not made in China. But hey, that is from my knowledge of how household appliances made in Europe are typically better than American, just as cars made in Europe or Japan are better than Dodge or Chevy. I would assume that this logic would apply to projectiles as well?

 

[Unqualified]

Sorry, did I say projectiles? I meant ammo. The right amount of powder in the properly prepared brass case, and the right projectile of course and a primer. Or I could just buy what I buy and use what I’ve got and be in the ball park. I like American made, some European stuff I can’t get except Prvi, but eu stuff more expensive. I aspire to accuracy but don’t put money into it, sales and suff. Hevent even broke the Hornady barrier much. I get what I get.

i have a friend who buys quality projectpiles, try’s a lot of powders, duplicates loads and gets the best possible accuracy @100 yds. I guess that’s what it takes. Half inch groups with an h&r 243 winchester. It’s a matter of precision components. They got em in Europe- bullet weights, consistency, well designed. But they got em here too.

I had a load in the 6.5x57 Mauser. I don’t write anything up about it. Take one apart maybe!

I have heard the most expensive 22LR is a little more consistent.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It’s not a pain if you know what you’re doing and have a sighter.

I had a lever action 22. But no bang for the buck. I pumped it for an hour and got a tired arm. Not that accurate either. Just my opinion. I like a little more recoil so I only shoot a box at most. More often so shooting more. But it’s not been much more often.

Nice build. A single shot I guess. Set up for accuracy. I can’t hit anything @100 with a 22. So what you doing with standard ammo is darn good. Hoping to get that with my 6.5. But it’s off to find a load for it. I had a load that shot good but a little over max. Only sign was flat primers.

For me it is very satisfying to coax accuracy out of a little rifle like a .22 by tuning and tweaking (being mindful that I am an engineer in real live, and we view everything as a problem to solve. Even if it is really good, we want it better. LOL).

This is not a single shot. CZ's 455 are all repeaters. There are 5, 10 and 25 round magazines available. I use 10s. Precision Rimfire Shooting has a timed element, so repeaters have a great advantage. NRA Rimfire matches are generally shot with single shot rifles. Those matches have a generous maximum time, but you are not scored on your time. PRS simulates military type sniping.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

No, I don’t any to go that far. I have a green laser but it’s only good to 25 yds in the daytime. A friend used one to practice pistol, she was on a team. They are limited for this purpose, unlike the movies. But mines green.

Are those HUD scopes good for hunting? Yeah seems complex. I worked all the complexities out of mine. Need some accurate ammo now. I’d settle for an 8 inch group on steel @200 on one of them- black powder.

mister rohfreitsch where are you. It seems like you pick up a new project like once a year. I’m kinda like that too. Just have to have something new. But I’m trying to tone it down. So expensive!

Please, call me Mark; and I am in Ontario Canada. Engineers have to tinker. LOL. Big gun auction here today on line. I had book marked about 60 or 70 project guns (it has been years since I have had a Shotgun, and the boys like shooting a new sport "Sporting Clays") They all sold too high for what they were, and for what I would have had to put into them. Maybe next time. LOL Contact local gunsmiths, they often have project guns of one sort or another.

 

[AlexB23]

Sorry, did I say projectiles? I meant ammo. The right amount of powder in the properly prepared brass case, and the right projectile of course and a primer. Or I could just buy what I buy and use what I’ve got and be in the ball park. I like American made, some European stuff I can’t get except Prvi, but eu stuff more expensive. I aspire to accuracy but don’t put money into it, sales and suff. Hevent even broke the Hornady barrier much. I get what I get.

i have a friend who buys quality projectiles, try’s a lot of powders, duplicates loads and gets the best possible accuracy @100 yds. I guess that’s what it takes. Half inch groups with an h&r 243 winchester. It’s a matter of precision components. They got em in Europe- bullet weights, consistency, well designed. But they got em here too.

I had a load in the 6.5x57 Mauser. I don’t write anything up about it. Take one apart maybe!

I have heard the most expensive 22LR is a little more consistent.

Ammo and projectile are the same thing, are they not (goes to show how little I know)? Of course, EU stuff has to be more expensive, as there are a lot of taxes there so buying American made makes sense, buy anything but Chinese I would say. So, are different ammo or powder specialized for different things? Such as ammo for hunting vs. ammo for target practice, ammo for police or ammo for military*? It does also seem, that the more one pays for a product, the higher quality it is (typically), so that means it might be a good idea to buy higher quality ammo/projectiles for target practice and consistency.

*The US military apparently uses Winchester, while the police use various different brands including Federal from a quick Reddit search (depending on police agency).

 

[Unqualified]

For me it is very satisfying to coax accuracy out of a little rifle like a .22 by tuning and tweaking (being mindful that I am an engineer in real live, and we view everything as a problem to solve. Even if it is really good, we want it better. LOL).

This is not a single shot. CZ's 455 are all repeaters. There are 5, 10 and 25 round magazines available. I use 10s. Precision Rimfire Shooting has a timed element, so repeaters have a great advantage. NRA Rimfire matches are generally shot with single shot rifles. Those matches have a generous maximum time, but you are not scored on your time. PRS simulates military type sniping.

Are you a machinist also, squaring bolt faces, tuning actions, new crowns, would take a machinist. Or gunsmith. I just had some work done. Simple stuff but I needed help. But I don’t want to do that to every rifle. I got a wild hair and thought I could make some money on it. But in the end I would just break even. So I’ll probably just shoot it and make it my last. Yeah and just tinker. That’s the fun. Buying and selling too much any more. I think the gun market may be slowing down. Cheaper guns sell, but mine is waiting.

I cast for them. Fun activity. You know all about that and seek perfection. I like tight groups but get bored easily. Do you shoot cast in your 6.5? Mine ought to shoot that good too. I remember. Pretty complex process to get them to shoot good. Not too many molds for them. Should be able to make it work to 200. Gong accuracy.

 

[Unqualified]

Ammo and projectile are the same thing, are they not (goes to show how little I know)? Of course, EU stuff has to be more expensive, as there are a lot of taxes there so buying American made makes sense, buy anything but Chinese I would say. So, are different ammo or powder specialized for different things? Such as ammo for hunting vs. ammo for target practice, ammo for police or ammo for military*? It does also seem, that the more one pays for a product, the higher quality it is (typically), so that means it might be a good idea to buy higher quality ammo/projectiles for target practice and consistency.

*The US military apparently uses Winchester, while the police use various different brands including Federal from a quick Reddit search (depending on police agency).

There is something for every purpose and every rifle has a sweet spot.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Sorry, did I say projectiles? I meant ammo. The right amount of powder in the properly prepared brass case, and the right projectile of course and a primer. Or I could just buy what I buy and use what I’ve got and be in the ball park. I like American made, some European stuff I can’t get except Prvi, but eu stuff more expensive. I aspire to accuracy but don’t put money into it, sales and suff. Hevent even broke the Hornady barrier much. I get what I get.

i have a friend who buys quality projectpiles, try’s a lot of powders, duplicates loads and gets the best possible accuracy @100 yds. I guess that’s what it takes. Half inch groups with an h&r 243 winchester. It’s a matter of precision components. They got em in Europe- bullet weights, consistency, well designed. But they got em here too.

I had a load in the 6.5x57 Mauser. I don’t write anything up about it. Take one apart maybe!

I have heard the most expensive 22LR is a little more consistent.

Home loading is very relaxing; working up loads. I never worry about copying a factory load as I will never have the same components. Rather I start low, loading 10 rounds, then 10 more with a bit more powder etc. until I reach maximum. I will shoot 5 or 10 foulers then one target with each loading. Noting the best group (s), to identify a "node", then repeat but this time instead of a grain of powder difference, two grains within the node. This will usually guide you to the optimum load for that particular powder/bullet combination.

Very fun part of shooting sports and reloading is very relaxing.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Are you a machinist also, squaring bolt faces, tuning actions, new crowns, would take a machinist. Or gunsmith. I just had some work done. Simple stuff but I needed help. But I don’t want to do that to every rifle. I got a wild hair and thought I could make some money on it. But in the end I would just break even. So I’ll probably just shoot it and make it my last. Yeah and just tinker. That’s the fun. Buying and selling too much any more. I think the gun market may be slowing down. Cheaper guns sell, but mine is waiting.

I cast for them. Fun activity. You know all about that and seek perfection. I like tight groups but get bored easily. Do you shoot cast in your 6.5? Mine ought to shoot that good too. I remember. Pretty complex process to get them to shoot good. Not too many molds for them. Should be able to make it work to 200. Gong accuracy.

I shot cast at one time, but no longer. So many good bullets available now from both Europe and NA and some very economical like PP from Serbia. I load their 286 gr in my 9.3 x 62 with astounding accuracy with very stout loads. Holy recoil batman, but it hurts so good when you are printing small groups out of the old Husqvarna commercial Mauser. (with a slip-on limbsaver recoil pad I can fire a box full before the pain and bruising becomes too much. LOL Without one, 5 or six rounds. Those big suckers still cost me about 6 dollars a round to reload.

The rifle is glass smooth and feeds impeccably while holding five rounds in the magazine.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ammo and projectile are the same thing, are they not (goes to show how little I know)? Of course, EU stuff has to be more expensive, as there are a lot of taxes there so buying American made makes sense, buy anything but Chinese I would say. So, are different ammo or powder specialized for different things? Such as ammo for hunting vs. ammo for target practice, ammo for police or ammo for military*? It does also seem, that the more one pays for a product, the higher quality it is (typically), so that means it might be a good idea to buy higher quality ammo/projectiles for target practice and consistency.

*The US military apparently uses Winchester, while the police use various different brands including Federal from a quick Reddit search (depending on police agency).

In Canada, the military puts out tenders specking out the ammo; Police forces have more discretion. RCMP being federal may also do the tender thing. Canadian military snipers often load their own ammo to suit their rifles; staying in spec tolerance.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Are you a machinist also, squaring bolt faces, tuning actions, new crowns, would take a machinist. Or gunsmith. I just had some work done. Simple stuff but I needed help. But I don’t want to do that to every rifle. I got a wild hair and thought I could make some money on it. But in the end I would just break even. So I’ll probably just shoot it and make it my last. Yeah and just tinker. That’s the fun. Buying and selling too much any more. I think the gun market may be slowing down. Cheaper guns sell, but mine is waiting.

I cast for them. Fun activity. You know all about that and seek perfection. I like tight groups but get bored easily. Do you shoot cast in your 6.5? Mine ought to shoot that good too. I remember. Pretty complex process to get them to shoot good. Not too many molds for them. Should be able to make it work to 200. Gong accuracy.

I have done a lot of machine work, but now do more hand work. Making replacement parts, welding and reworking worn/broken parts. My eyes are not what they used to be, but I still us a lot of magnification and tiny pencil grinders similar to dental instruments with both stones and carbide cutters to work down repairs; and a lot of stoning and polishing to promote smooth function.