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Stand Back and Stand By

LostMarbels

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A simple, flat, “Yes, I completely disavow white supremacists and their respective groups.” Not followed by any whataboutisms, just a full stop. It’s the easiest thing in the world.

But that isn't what happened or what was asked. They threw in Proud Boys with racists intentionally. Trump isn't going to defend them because of their violence, and he is not going to disavow them as racist, because they're not. That was a gotcha catch 22 setup.

Either way they got him. If he denounced the proud boys MSM would run with Trump admitting his supporters are white nationalists. Either way....
 
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Kentonio

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Trump isn't going to defend them because of their violence, and he is not going to disavow them as racist, because they're not. That was a gotcha catch 22 setup.

Trump claims he had no idea who they were. In which case how could he have known they were supposedly not racist?
 
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LostMarbels

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Trump claims he had no idea who they were. In which case how could he have known they were supposedly not racist?

He's POTUS... and doesn't know who the proud boys are... o_O not so sure of that one myself.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Proud Boys have been involved in rallies displaying racist imagery, such as confederate flags.

I suspect their tolerance of non-whites is going to vary from cell group to cell group. They seem principally united in rallying around crude symbols of violence, patriarchy, misogyny, and hatred of the Left, rather than overt racism, but they are still a dangerous group.

That's basically the trap that pundits and democrats keep setting for Trump, and he keeps falling into it (I suppose we can chalk it up to lack of intelligence on his part, or poor strategy by his campaign team).

Similar kinds of traps keep getting set for Biden, and he's walking into them half of the time too.

Setting the "Trump supports white supremacy" trap is pretty simple:
- name an entity that happened to be present at any sort of far-right event that happened to also include actual white supremacy groups
- Try to get him do denounce them
- Rather than clarify, in an intelligent manner (don't know if he's got the tools for that last part) "Groups that attend rallies that aren't racists themselves, don't magically become racists by proximity if actual white nationalists also happen to be there" He takes the bait and says things like he did in the debate, or says things like "there were good and bad people on both sides"

It's basically the political version of a loaded question. Find an event where maybe 10% of the people there were racist agitators, try to get him to disavow the entire event, so that his choices are "Do it, and insult the 90% of conservatives who were there who aren't racists" or "Don't do it, and then everyone gets to say that he refused to condemn racism"

...it'd be sort of like if there was a huge biker rally like Sturgis, and a bunch of clubs, who weren't involved in the same types of illegal things that the "1%" clubs are involved in, happened to be there in attendance along side the 1% club members who also happened to be there, and setting the expectation that "if someone doesn't condemn the entire event and every club that was in attendance, that means "they refuse to condemn biker gangs".


Biden has been getting the same setup from the conservative side when it comes to the topics of law & order and The Green New Deal, because they know he's trying to walk that edge of "Moderate" versus "Further left". We saw him walk into the Green New Deal trap during the debate.

They basically trashed the green new deal, knowing that Biden would jump to defend it with comments like "it'll pay for itself" and "it's a great plan" (to appeal to the farther left), and then when asked "Do you support the Green New Deal?", he says "No, that's not my plan" (to appeal to more moderate democrats). At which point, the logical response to him would be: "Joe, if you say it's a great plan and it'll pay for itself, then why don't you support it and why isn't that your plan?"...however, the moderator did him a bit of a favor by bailing him out and moving to a different topic.



I'd like to think if we had two smarter candidates as the two front runners, they'd be able to easily navigate through these painfully transparent setups their opposition is throwing at them.

If it devolved anymore, they'd both literally be asking each other
"Have you stopped beating your wife?...it's a yes or no question!"
 
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Skewpoint

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He's POTUS... and doesn't know who the proud boys are... o_O not so sure of that one myself.
His own Press Secretary herself today said she had not heard of them until the debate. Also reiterated Trump did not know who they were.

There's no good say to spin that. Either both are woefully unaware of current events, or are just straight lying to our faces. If lying, why? And why are they going so far out of their way to not just condemn them?
 
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LostMarbels

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His own Press Secretary herself today said she had not heard of them until the debate. Also reiterated Trump did not know who they were.

There's no good say to spin that. Either both are woefully unaware of current events, or are just straight lying to our faces. If lying, why? And why are they going so far out of their way to not just condemn them?

Who is spinning anything? I do not believe POTUS is completely ignorant of their existence. As to 'not knowing who they are' maybe he doesn't completely understand, but I don't buy he never heard of them.

This is just another instance where I disagree with Trump everyone can ignore... nothing to see here.
 
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Skewpoint

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Who is spinning anything? I do not believe POTUS is completely ignorant of their existence. As to 'not knowing who they are' maybe he doesn't completely understand, but I don't buy he never heard of them.

This is just another instance where I disagree with Trump everyone can ignore... nothing to see here.
Oh, I did not intend to mean you were spinning for them. Sorry. It was more of a statement to anybody else reading it.
I agree with you that I don't buy he hasn't heard of them before. So the question would be why is he or his press secretary lying about it? Not directing the question to you, just a general sense.
 
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LostMarbels

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Oh, I did not intend to mean you were spinning for them. Sorry. It was more of a statement to anybody else reading it.
I agree with you that I don't buy he hasn't heard of them before. So the question would be why is he or his press secretary lying about it? Not directing the question to you, just a general sense.

Political reasons? A President being a politician? I have no facts to call him a flat out liar, just find it hard to believe.
 
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Skewpoint

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Political reasons? A President being a politician? I have no facts to call him a flat out liar, just find it hard to believe.
I've been told numerous times over the past 4 years that his supporters like him because he WASN'T a politician. Did that change? When?
 
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LostMarbels

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I've been told numerous times over the past 4 years that his supporters like him because he WASN'T a politician. Did that change? When?

Please just say whatever dig you feel necessary to get in, so we can move on.....
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Oh, I did not intend to mean you were spinning for them. Sorry. It was more of a statement to anybody else reading it.
I agree with you that I don't buy he hasn't heard of them before. So the question would be why is he or his press secretary lying about it? Not directing the question to you, just a general sense.

Yeah, I'm not buying that he's never heard of them...maybe a year ago, they were a little more obscure, but I think most people who have the internet know who they are.

My main objection to this particular attack would be the loaded language being used.

There's no doubt that there's been instances where Trump's had the opportunity to disavow racists (and failed to do so)...like when he also claimed to not know who David Duke was early on, and only disavowed his support later on after he was backed into a corner.

Basically, the scenario they laid out was "Are you willing to condemn white supremacists groups?", and he said "Name a group", and Biden replied back with "How about the Proud Boys?"

...Equating "refusal to condemn the proud boys" with "refusal to condemn white supremacy" is a dishonest tactic. He should be condemning their behavior for a number of other reasons, because no president should be encouraging people to go out and get in street brawls with political rivals. But with that group in particular, the "white supremacy" angle doesn't play.

They're "western chauvinists" (the term they use to describe themselves, and the same term the SPLC uses to describe them as well), and anti-left, and anti-Islamic.

So, if they wanted to say that "he refused to condemn Islamaphobic groups" because refused to condemn them, that would be more accurate.

A white supremacist/neo-nazi group having a Black/Cuban leader, and being founded by a former co-founder of Vice Media, who french kissed another man in front of a Mosque to provoke Muslims doesn't sound like any other white supremacist/neo-nazi group I've ever heard of.
 
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Nithavela

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"....the four-degree initiation process of the Proud Boys:

1. Publicly declaring yourself a Proud Boy.
2. Being beat up by other members until you name five kinds of breakfast cereal. This degree also includes a vow to stop masturbating.
3. Getting a Proud Boy tattoo.
4. Engaging in physical violence with members of antifa, the leftist anti-fascist movement.

[2b may explain a lot! ^_^]

Why the Proud Boys Initiation Ritual Involves Cereal
Just like religions, once they get to control your sexuality, they control everything about you.
 
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Nithavela

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I don't think he is disinterested, I think he supports a white, patriotic militia in the same way that Hitler supported the Brown Shirts when he first came to power. That is his base. I think they have been maligned as being equivalent to the KKK. They are not a terrorist organization, nor are they a secret criminal cabal. they are the flag waving, love it leave it, everyone gets to carry a rifle in public, drive a pick up, and live in a double wide trailer.
Someone should tell them what happened to the SA.
 
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Nithavela

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My opinion -- October will be worse than September, perhaps much, much worse. Layoffs, economic collapse, fires in the West coast will get bad with the Santa Anna winds, perhaps the 3 gorges dam will collapse in China. Also the shenanigans regarding the election will get much worse. You have to realize that this is a very bad time to be a real estate developer that owns hotels and casinos. If his economic situation was bad before, it must be truly catastrophic now. He cannot afford to lose the election. He made it clear in the election he is running on a "law and order" platform and sees that as the biggest distinction between him and Biden. So I expect he will stoke that fire and want to ride in on the white horse bringing law and order to cities torn apart by riots and looting. These protests will grow as more and more people lose their jobs. The hardest hit sector of our economy are the gangs, that may seem like a good thing, but they will use the protests as an opportunity to loot. Businesses will defend themselves with a militia like we saw in Kenosha. He will want groups like the Proud Boys to come in and help maintain order which of course will make things worse, but open the door for him to come in with the feds. I don't think his threat to defund certain states and push them into bankruptcy is an idle threat. I think that is the way he treats anyone who opposes him. Driving states like California, Oregon, and New York into bankruptcy could throw their election into total disarray. He doesn't have to win the vote to win, he only needs to declare martial law to win. If he does that these peaceful protests will erupt into full on riots. This is what he wants them to be "alert" for.

Also, a collapse of the 3 gorges dam would be so catastrophic to China at this point it would make war a foregone conclusion. However, before they can fight a war anywhere they would need to disable the US. EMP's strategically set off in the US would cause the entire power grid to collapse, so not only massive riots but also blackouts.
I fail to see how a dam collapsing would immediately cause war against the USA.
 
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LostMarbels

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There isn't a dig. I'm trying to get the story straight from Trumpers themselves.

Something just doesn't fit right. I'm not one to lie about how I actually feel. To my own detriment or not, I will tell the truth. It just doesn't seem Plausible that the President hasn't ever heard of Proud Boys. I call horse manure.

On the other point.

Trump is not a politician in the typical sense. This is his political career. His debut into the fray.
 
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LostMarbels

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Just like religions, once they get to control your sexuality, they control everything about you.

LGBTQ anyone? In the schools. In the media, yadda yaa....
 
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Skewpoint

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Yeah, I'm not buying that he's never heard of them...maybe a year ago, they were a little more obscure, but I think most people who have the internet know who they are.

My main objection to this particular attack would be the loaded language being used.

There's no doubt that there's been instances where Trump's had the opportunity to disavow racists (and failed to do so)...like when he also claimed to not know who David Duke was early on, and only disavowed his support later on after he was backed into a corner.

Basically, the scenario they laid out was "Are you willing to condemn white supremacists groups?", and he said "Name a group", and Biden replied back with "How about the Proud Boys?"

...Equating "refusal to condemn the proud boys" with "refusal to condemn white supremacy" is a dishonest tactic. He should be condemning their behavior for a number of other reasons, because no president should be encouraging people to go out and get in street brawls with political rivals. But with that group in particular, the "white supremacy" angle doesn't play.

They're "western chauvinists" (the term they use to describe themselves, and the same term the SPLC uses to describe them as well), and anti-left, and anti-Islamic.

So, if they wanted to say that "he refused to condemn Islamaphobic groups" because refused to condemn them, that would be more accurate.

A white supremacist/neo-nazi group having a Black/Cuban leader, and being founded by a former co-founder of Vice Media, who french kissed another man in front of a Mosque to provoke Muslims doesn't sound like any other white supremacist/neo-nazi group I've ever heard of.
I agree they're not a white supremacist group. They may work alongside them, but the direct label doesn't apply.

Now for the catch-22. Trump claims he hadn't heard of them. So during the debate, when asked to condemn white supremacists ideology and groups, he was fed a name by Biden. If it's actually true that Trump knew nothing of the group, it should've been super easy to say "if they are a white supremacist group, I condemn them and any other similar group full stop." But he didn't do that. If he knows of the group, he could have said something along the lines of they aren't a white supremacist group, but I condemn the actual groups that explicitly are white supremacist.

He did the same stupid thing that he did at Helsinki with Putin when he said "I see no reason why it would be them" only to try to correct it a few days later by saying "I meant would NOT be them." He told the Proud Boys to "Stand back, stand by." 2 days later, now it's "I meant stand down, a synonym of stand back." (According to Press Secretary as of today's press briefing) No mention of the stand by comment, but it sure did seem pretty sincere on the debate stage. Trump consistently picks the worst option out of all the easy stances to take. Nobody should give him the benefit of the doubt at this point.

The issue of mischaracterizing the Proud Boys is small potatoes compared to what this President has done in 4 years. We can fix that later.
 
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Nithavela

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Skewpoint

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Something just doesn't fit right. I'm not one to lie about how I actually feel. To my own detriment or not, I will tell the truth. It just doesn't seem Plausible that the President hasn't ever heard of Proud Boys. I call horse manure.
As you should, I agree. Something doesn't add up there.

On the other point.

Trump is not a politician in the typical sense. This is his political career. His debut into the fray.
If he turns into a typical politician, will you still call yourself a Trump supporter? Just for arguments sake, let's say this specific example is his first "typical politician" move. If it continues, what happens?
 
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