Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Tishri1]

I am.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

you aren't the only member to whom that has happened, though.
But that was then, and it is behind us. this is now.

There are staff here now who are listening and who are willing to work with the members here towards an MJ forum that can better serve it's members.
we're not asking you to volunteer anything off the bat, but just to think about what and how you would like to contribute towards the forum to make it better for everyone. ok?

 

[pat34lee]

Again, I don't know what you mean by 'Torah is main stream'. The Torah is mainstream, but Keeping the Mosaic law is not main stream.

The practise of Torah is not a debate in Messianic Judaism. We all respect the Torah. What is an issue is that Messianic Judaism does not consider Torah obedience/Mosaic law as mandatory.

Is Torah observance mandatory for salvation? No. After salvation, yes, it is as mandatory as a married person keeping the vows they made.

 

[Tishri1]

Growing up in Judaism, the various Christian denominations were very confusing. I thought protestant was another Christian denomination, like Baptist, Epicopalian, etc.

After believing on Yeshua, it took several years to realize the Protestant was for Protest, and breaking from the RCC.

I don't see myself as Protestant.

But I also don't see myself as breaking away from Judaism. Judaism believes in the Messiah, but are still waiting for him. I think we missed Him, as Yeshua is the Messiah. Had Judaism recognized Yeshua the Messiah, then all of Judaism would be Messianic Judaism.

I also don't see myself as breaking away from Christianity. In the sense of the body of Messiah, born again believers, Messianic Jews are Christians. Messianic and Christian are synonyms. Messianic is more Jewish, and Christian is more Gentile. Jews say Messiah, Gentiles usually say Christ. Messianic Judaism has a Jewish view so has some differences, but no differences on the essentials of salvation.

 

[Lulav]

Is Torah observance mandatory for salvation? No. After salvation, yes, it is as mandatory as a married person keeping the vows they made.

 

[Tishri1]

Shalom All,

That is the most important thing in this Messianic Judaism faith group according to many that have posted. Shalom, right? If you really love me, you will shut up about keeping Torah, right? There has been a few messages in support of this view. And a video! The command is given: Watch it.

OK, I watched it.

Facetious sarcasm begins.​

And what is the message? Well didn't you see the video based on the Messianic 'rabbi' Doug Friedman, an engineer from MIT (oooohh!!!). His credentials include: B.S. Aeronautical Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1967); M.E. Aerospace Sciences, Cornell University (1968); Master of Arts: Biblical & Theological Studies, Diversified, Talbot Theological Seminary, Biola University (in process). Hey I'm impressed! Aren't you?

He says the differences in Messianic Judaism Torah observance is "like fighting over a penny". I don't do penny jokes.

Look! There is only 1% difference between the two groups according to his very professional looking pie chart. And there is the opening line from his on-line study:

'Different perspectives exist in the messianic movement on the applicability of the Mosaic Law to the New Covenant believer in our present Dispensation of Grace'​

Oh! He's a Hebrew Christian! Ahh...

Oh! I feel a little dizzy. I need to sit. Let me take a 'Dispensation of Grace' moment for all that to sink in... Ahhh! Now doesn't that feel better? No?

Let me take another 'Dispensation of Grace' moment for that to sink in further... Hmm... Still no luck.

Perhaps it's time for the video clip of the Rodney King asking , "Can't we all just get along?"

WAIT! NOT SO FAST! I need another moment...

Nope, still don't get it. ​

Ah! Now I get it!

Well if there is only 1% difference between the two and we are in the DISPENSATION OF GRACE after all, then we should just give up trying, right? Nothing to contend over, right? Those of us that do see it differently or are more observant than what this attendee of a reputable Christian Theological Seminary concludes appropriate; we should just roll over and toe the line, right? After all, that is what Steve Shermett of Congregation Beth Sar Shalom concludes in this video - 'The 'Law of Moses'. It isn't for New Testament believers. So it MUST be true, right?

Hey, it's not only IN PRINT, they GOT A VIDEO too! What more do you want?

He's an engineer from MIT, y'know. His numbers must be right. I doulbt he has ANY Christian theological bias either - like maybe Dispensationalism? Naw... And both Doug and Steve, their congregations are both members of the Association of Messianic Congregations, so that must mean something, right? It's Messianic for gosh sakes! ...right?

From the AMC website:
The Believer and the Law of Moses
We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life...

Last Things
We believe that upon physical death believers enter into the joyous presence of God, whereas non-believers enter into conscious suffering apart from God. We believe in the personal, bodily, visible, and pre-millennial return of the Lord Yeshua...

Wow, how convenient! You don't have to really change any inward behavior to jump from your local church to come to their 'Messianic Shul'! Don't forget to bring your T&O! You get to play 'Messianic dress-up'! All you have to do is accessorize a bit and you can even borrow your kippah, your tallit and even your tichel right here - till you get your own! Just keep the 'Ten' and wait for the Rapture! Your Sunday potluck is our Oneg Shabbat and it's all Torah optional. Whoo hoo!!

Tish, after what I have read overnight, I feel completely at ease knowing that THE TEMPLAR, defender of the Jews, is on our side. Really. Such a level head and even hand too.

And look at this cast of characters that have assembled for the singing of Kumbaya! We have the 'Torah isn't for Gentiles' Hebrew Christian Messianics, all these newly minted non-Denom Messianics coming over to save us, several Messianics of convenience and a number of non-Messianics. Confidence. that's the word I'm looking for. It gives me confidence.

C'mon Y'all, let's gather round the campfire and watch the ashes of Torah burn in the moonlight! It'll be fun! "Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya; Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya; Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya, O Lord, kum bay ya."

Forget about kashrut! Let's break out the marshmallows and frankfurters! And all we have to do is hold hands and pray and sing and dance everything will be all right! Right? And look! There really isn't any doctrinal differences between Mainstream Christianity and Messianic Judaism. As a matter of fact, there are no adherents of Messianic Judaism. We are all mainstream Christians (doctrinally speaking of course) after all. And THAT is how we achieve Shalom in Messianic Judaism! Assimilate! (Now where is that cute little heart-shaped smiley when you really need it?)

Facetious sarcasm ends.​

Why can't we all just get along? Because and not despite of our majority in the forum, the anti-Torah proponents will not let us have any degree of shalom concerning Torah observance in the main forum. You all know the tactics: Tag-team antagonism, cut n past overload, derail the discussion, attack our core beliefs no matter what we discuss. Just look at this thread.

Every thing we talk about, think about and dream about, all relates back to Torah and Messiah. So, in your plan, the Torah observant should now just sit on their hands while these 'Dispensation of Grace Messianics' fellowship with the visitors to the Messianic Judaism forum and tell them that Messianic Judaism believes that Torah "as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation"? Really?? Please show me where Messiah said that you shouldn't try to keep that 1% if it is indeed only 1%. You cannot show me a single instance of Him saying that ANY of the law is done away with. But I can show you PLENTY of places where He says the exact opposite.

How opportune that several of the more vocal proponents of Torah observance are 'missing' right now. Nothing personal Tish, but this attempt to end the divisiveness here is turning more into a blatant attempt to push the Torah observant out of this faith group. Now take a moment - and look who is doing the pushing.

Do you really think you rant is helpful at ending this feud Tal? Are you prepared to keep going on as usual and also expect them to change and respect you In spite of your mudslinging? I realize you have been enduring a lot of threads being hijacked , but is this the answer?

 

[Henaynei]

Is Torah observance mandatory for salvation? No. After salvation, yes, it is as mandatory as a married person keeping the vows they made.

But just as you and I and others may have come a long way 1) to understand that, and 2) to get to the current level of our understanding and obedience - which hopefully is still growing, so to 3) must others be gently supported where they are, that we might earn the right with them to 4) humbly and ever so gently encourage them to consider advancing along their path at the rate set by and led by the Ruakh in each individual life.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Tishri1]

I think what they are asking is we each forgive each other and start from a new beginning much as the L-rd allows us to do after being forgiven of our own trespasses.

HE forgives us more than "70 x 7." Should we not forgive both posters and mods at least that many times since that, too, is a Mitzvah?

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Amen!

 

[mishkan]

Then lead by example and be more tolerant of other understandings.

I'm very tolerant. You've never seen me tell anyone what they had to do in order to follow the Torah according to their own understanding.

I have very few rules. One to which I do hold, though, is, "The Torah remains eternal, just as the Scriptures say." What you want to do with that is up to you.

Nothing says I have to represent the other guy's position. I state my own views clearly and succinctly, and elaborate, with support, when asked.

I don't flame. I try to be understanding of others, while maintaining the integrity of my own views.

I consider that a pretty good role model for anybody.

 

[Jerushabelle]

MJ does not segregate Jews and Gentiles or make either group feel shame for how they dress. Main stream MJ accepts both groups as one people and neither forbids or demands a certain Jewish dress code

That's true Sister Tishri but that's not what has been visible in many of the posts/attitudes here and that is what Sister Qnts2 has pointed out, what I have pointed out, Brother EasyG and Brother mpossof has pointed out, what Brother ContraMundum has pointed out (although he calls it ranting which I didn't think was considering the emotionality of the subject) what Brother rsduncan has pointed out. And whatever happened to Brother NealOFS or Brother RevSTButler? Ah, there's others. I have no doubt that the folks I listed above including myself can and do find love in their hearts for people with differing faith expressions within MJ but I'm pretty sure that we all shut down understanding-wise when a certain sort of hateful, condemning, legalistic (whatever you want to call it) behavior is employed. Even Brother Netzarim who is totally anti-Paul is someone I can communicate with in a loving fashion. I know because I did in PM and one would think that if things are going to get really nasty, it's going to happen in PMs. But it didn't. It's simply a question of doing the right thing faithwise; of exemplifying the fruit of the Spirit. Everybody's got a threshold when it comes to having their buttons pushed. People need to stop pushing the buttons.

 

[Marie Lynn]

Is Torah observance mandatory for salvation? No. After salvation, yes, it is as mandatory as a married person keeping the vows they made.

Hi Pat,
As an observer from the outside would you mind explaining to me what one is being saved from? What is the Messianic perspective of salvation, or would it be the same as the view of salvation within mainstream Christianity?
Thank you

 

[Jerushabelle]

But just as you and I and others may have come a long way 1) to understand that, and 2) to get to the current level of our understanding and obedience - which hopefully is still growing, so to 3) must others be gently supported where they are, that we might earn the right with them to 4) humbly and ever so gently encourage them to consider advancing along their path at the rate set by and led by the Ruakh in each individual life.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Well that's great Sister, I really mean that, and I appreciate TLC but my level of observance is exactly where it's going to stay (unless God decides to change something) and I'm asking you and others here to just flat accept that. BTW, I am not non-Torah observant. I do observe many aspects of Torah.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Is Torah observance mandatory for salvation? No. After salvation, yes, it is as mandatory as a married person keeping the vows they made.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Yeshua and His blood/resurrection and sanctification through the Spirit and the beauty of His Torah is what unites us all

I tend to go with "Yeshua and His Blood/resurrection and sanctification through the Spirit and the beauty of His word en toto is what unites us all" That's not anti-Torah but it is pro all of God's word and I don't see why that, in some people's eyes, makes me non-Messianic. Do you?

 

[Lulav]

But just as you and I and others may have come a long way 1) to understand that, and 2) to get to the current level of our understanding and obedience - which hopefully is still growing, so to 3) must others be gently supported where they are, that we might earn the right with them to 4) humbly and ever so gently encourage them to consider advancing along their path at the rate set by and led by the Ruakh in each individual life.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Henny, I don't think the problem is that we don't accept those on the path, or that we are trying to hurry anyone along, it's those that don't believe

1. That Gentiles should be on that path
or
2. That as a Gentile they are not in any way obligated to it. All is covered in grace and they are here to tell us how wrong we are for keeping it.

 

[mishkan]

Henny, I don't think the problem is that we don't accept those on the path, or that we are trying to hurry anyone along, it's those that don't believe

1. That Gentiles should be on that path
or
2. That as a Gentile they are not in any way obligated to it. All is covered in grace and they are here to tell us how wrong we are for keeping it.

Agreed, as far as that goes.

But don't forget that we also have numerous Jews here maintaining that the Torah path is eliminated for them, as well.

I find the issue to fall out, not on ethnic lines, but on theological. If one accepts the Christian assumption that followers of Messiah have no relationship with the Torah, then one lives and believes one way. If one accepts that Torah was given for our Good, as the Torah itself declares, then one lives and believes another way.

This is why I believe there is a clear and simple demarcation between (Hebrew)-Christianity and Messianic Judaism. There are other differences, as well, but this seems to be the point of contention that keeps coming up.

 

[Chaplain David]

Don't say I didn't warn you. Brothers and sisters, please don't forget my "Let's be nice" post. I and other staff members firmly believe in it and it works. Here's the link http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-30/#post60061191

Shalom to all and God bless you.

 

[Chaplain David]

Agreed, as far as that goes.

But don't forget that we also have numerous Jews here maintaining that the Torah path is eliminated for them, as well.

I find the issue to fall out, not on ethnic lines, but on theological. If one accepts the Christian assumption that followers of Messiah have no relationship with the Torah, then one lives and believes one way. If one accepts that Torah was given for our Good, as the Torah itself declares, then one lives and believes another way.

This is why I believe there is a clear and simple demarcation between (Hebrew)-Christianity and Messianic Judaism. There are other differences, as well, but this seems to be the point of contention that keeps coming up.

OK I admit that I'm a little slow sometimes and I am terrible remembering names (but I'm smart) lol. Who is Henry?

 

[Chaplain David]

I have Jews in my family and also have always had a heart for both Jews and Israel. The whole Torah observance thing and also MJ is very new to me but I find it fascinating and am really drawn to it.

 

[Avodat]

you aren't the only member to whom that has happened, though.
But that was then, and it is behind us. this is now.

There are staff here now who are listening and who are willing to work with the members here towards an MJ forum that can better serve it's members.
we're not asking you to volunteer anything off the bat, but just to think about what and how you would like to contribute towards the forum to make it better for everyone. ok?

With respect we've heard that before. I think that, when you literally plead with Mods to do something to solve the problems and you actually go out of your way to come up with a working answer, and what is suggested is a minor matter for them - and it is neither rejected nor accepted or, on one occasion, you are told to tell someone else, I see no point in suggesting anything anymore. It might have been yesterday, but it breeds no confidence in anything actually happening today.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I tend to go with "Yeshua and His Blood/resurrection and sanctification through the Spirit and the beauty of His word en toto is what unites us all" That's not anti-Torah but it is pro all of God's word and I don't see why that, in some people's eyes, makes me non-Messianic. Do you?

If you're speaking of God's Word, then by default you're talking on Torah--as that simply means teaching/Law, something the Lord has given each generation in the scriptures, with what was said in one era differing in certain ways from another. It's why what Christ noted/did in expanding/giving completion to the Torah, as well as what was noted in the New Covenant (according to Hebrews) is also considered Torah as well. What we were given in the NT is different than what was present in the OT, even though aspects of the OT do carry over/are there for our examples as both edifications and warnings (I Corinthians 10, Hebrews 3-4, etc)...and as others noted best in another discussion:

depends on your definition of Torah. The bible discusses different instructions or torah for different people in different environments and Different covenants. Different sacrifices and methods from the tabernacle wilderness to the first temple, to the 2nd and different priesthoods etc.

This is not to say- many instructions involving our relationship with Hashem and humanity are identical throughout the ages.

The NT scriptures are clear that the new gentile believers in Yeshua were not required to adopt all practices of their fellow Jewish believers.

Yes, there is also something the NT calls the "Law of Christ" (Or Torah of Moschiach if you insist) and it is not the same as the Mosaic Torah on every point. So, yes, there is a Torah for all mankind and one for the Jews but they have the same source. .