Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Henaynei]

I don't know how many are aware of what's called the New Perspective on Paul but it's an interesting and convincing perspective. In general most Christian theology is based on Pauline epistle's with a misunderstanding of Paul. This misunderstanding is centered around texts such as 1 Corinth 9:20. The likes of Nanos provides good stuff what Paul meant and makes convincing that Paul was always Torah observant but has been misunderstood that he wasn't based on 1 Corinth 9:20 as well as other texts.

We have been teaching for decades that:
Paul was his Greek name used in Greek speaking lands and Sha'ul was his Hebrew name used when ever he was in The Land. It was not changed from the Hebrew Sha'ul to the "Christian" or Greek Paul (Paulus) after "conversion."
He never converted to Christianity. The very well trained Jewish Torah and Mishnah scholar and P'rush, Sha'ul, met the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua, and accepted Him as the long promised and hoped for Reedemer spoken about in the Jewish scriptures and traditions.
Sha'ul remained a scrupulously obedient to both Torah and Mishnah throughout his life, right to the end.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Tishri1]

I was in a short period of my walk with the Lord that I got caught up in 'you must keep the Law and if you don't...' or posting in ways that would suggest if you don't keep the Law you are going to be least.

Then I started to think about Messianic Judaism. I was born and raised Jewish in between reform and conservative which has always been an expression of traditions. It wasn't until recently because of this discussion that took me back. My family has always kept what they could in a traditional sense. We never built a Sukkot at home but we helped the synagogue build one as an example and we went in it. Much like the video I posted in a traditional sense. Traditionally speaking it wasn't in a binding sense it was what we do. Like in the Fiddler on the Roof, 'how did this tradition get started?'... 'I don't know'. But then he says it's a tradition, everyone knows who He is and what God expects.

I'm positive that most Messianic Jews view the holidays in this sense. But what is found in these traditions is fulfillment of 'the One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write'.

What I'm saying I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way, I'm sharing my experience and I think I speak for the majority of Jewish believers not to make any distinctions. I asked a great friend of mine who isn't Jewish who is also a fellow congregant about his wanting to be involved in the movement and how he views and feels about the high holidays and such. And does he ever feel these 'traditions' are binding? I wear a kippah in synagogue he doesn't as an example. He said he doesn't feel pressured to wear one or not wear one. He doesn't have a Seder at his home but will go to the community Seder and a family Seder on the 1st night at one of his Jewish friends he grew up with. I wish he would post here, I'll ask him.

Am I making sense?

Yes you do, sounds like your view of the Law is that it fulfills something in you as much as you are fulfilling something in it. And I believe that is exactly what Yeshua felt as he observed it too. Not obedience for obedience sake, but life for life sake.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

We have been teaching for decades that:
Paul was his Greek name used in Greek speaking lands and Sha'ul was his Hebrew name used when ever he was in The Land. It was not changed from the Hebrew Sha'ul to the "Christian" or Greek Paul (Paulus) after "conversion."
He never converted to Christianity. The very well trained Jewish Torah and Mishnah scholar and P'rush, Sha'ul, met the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua, and accepted Him as the long promised and hoped for Reedemer spoken about in the Jewish scriptures and traditions.
Sha'ul remained a scrupulously obedient to both Torah and Mishnah throughout his life, right to the end.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

You must listen or watch this;

16. Paul as Jewish Theologian - YouTube

 

[mishkan]

all these newly minted non-Denom Messianics coming over to save us

Bright as a shiny new penny!

Great post, chaver.

 

[Henaynei]

You must listen or watch this;

16. Paul as Jewish Theologian - YouTube

Thanks, I will.

Please you read, Galatians: A Messianic Jewish Perspective by Isaac Israel (his real Hebrew name). "For many years now, a Messianic perspective on the epistle to the Galatians has been greatly needed in the Body of Messiah. Now, Isaac Israel, a Messianic Jew who received barmitzvah-training in an Orthodox synagogue, presents a unique and compelling commentary on the book of Galatians from a Messianic Jewish perspective! A long awaited and much needed addition to both Messianic and Christian hermeneutics."

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[mishkan]

You must listen or watch this;

Well, that was fun.

Erroneous on many levels, but an interesting reminder of the junk I used to believe.

 

[Tishri1]

This illustrates basically our difference of understanding. I think that you can't clean a window with a hammer. To say that "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with" without understanding that there are a number of qualifying factors on the subject is to in fact make a case against "most Christians" that simply is not true. Anyone with a NT will discover that there are portions of the Torah that are no longer necessary. "Most Christians" are prepared to face that fact and accept it.

However, to make a statement that insinuates that "Most Christians" have no reverence and no regard to any part of the Torah is a slanderous lie, as almost every major Christian denomination not only teaches the moral law but the devout portion of its membership adheres to it, something some MJs, who gab on about the law incessantly, could learn from. The fact of the matter is that every mainstream catechism in history begins with the commandments. This is not evidence of "doing away" with the Torah.

Perhaps your cause would be better served by the elimination of such broad reaching and misleading statements such as "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with"

While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think the way you attack the issue is helpful, it's not helpful to accuse members of slanderous lying and only serves to create an even larger wedge of resentment between groups in here

 

[Tishri1]

Considering I post perhaps the least of all on this forum in the last year, I would say your advice was well heeded by me long ago. I avoid all kinds of threads. Some I take on, because I have passion for the topic. That's what forums are FOR.

It's very good to hear you are practicing restraint . Me too

 

[Tishri1]

What do you consider against Torah?

Messianic Jews are not against Torah, but do not believe keeping the law is a requirement (Gentiles can keep the law but are not required to keep the law) . We view that as two different things.

Torah respect and practice is a main part of being MJ. That doesn't mean that everyone believes it to be binding on folks, they just can't stop themselves, it gives them as much pleasure as it does eating breathing and sleeping.

 

[Tishri1]

I'm sorry CM but this is a horrible post and deserves no place on this forum

It's belittling, goading and as disruptive as can be

It flames everyone who loves Torah......extremely offensive

I see it rather more simply than that, brother. Loving one's neighbor fulfills the "Law of Christ", and loving God etc....you know that. To me, the word "Torah" is a loaded term around here, and that loading has made the term meaningless.

When someone who claims to be Jewish tells me that they are "Torah observant Messianics"...I have no idea what they believe, how they live, or what the Torah means to them. It's just a trendy throw-away line to me. The big questions are not addressed in such relative religiosity. Do they visit the sick? Feed the poor? Usually not. Usually they are basically religious in their heads but their hearts and hands are pretty much non-observant.

I know this from experience. As a minister of Jewish background and rearing, a lot (and the number is rising) of people come to me with questions about being Jewish and so forth. I have found that they are prepared to learn about Judaism, the OT feasts etc...but when I invite them to actually live Torah and work at our soup kitchen....they run a mile.

I think Jesus was really on to something in all this. He really does say that the heart of the Torah is love of God and neighbor, and when I see that this heart of the Torah is "too hard" for people wanting to be "Torah observant", I really think all the arguing about which law is done by whom and when etc is a complete waste of time.

What's worse (and now I will vent a little) is that these same kind of characters will then go around judging me as "not observant" or "not Jewish enough" or whatever strange fantasy enters their minds in order to hide their own guilt. The fact is that I own, daily use and treasure tefillin, a tallis or two etc. I study the Shulchan all the time. I read the Talmud. I do my best to attend to Moedim, but that sometimes must be put aside for service to my people and neighbor. I am, in fact, an authentic Messianic Jew. The difference is that I don't need to advertise. I wear my kippa on the inside, where it matters most.

So, when I see Christians teaching the commandments and preaching from the whole counsel of scripture and then going out and feeding the poor and visiting the sick...I agree with Jesus and say "well done thou faithful servant". I don't need to judge their observance of religious rituals or adherence to the feasts given to the Jewish people. That's not my job. I'm here to encourage the same mitzvahs that Jesus did, and I'm not here to make everyone a Jew.

Hope that helps....although I may have missed your question entirely! Sorry in advance.

 

[Qnts2]

Sure it is, Torah and Tradition has been the foundation of the movement from way back, the fact that Jews don't have to give them up and that Yeshua and his Desciples can be seen encouraging these practices is very intrical to the MJ movement. Ask my Rabbi who has been in the movement since the 70's and myself since the 90's both the UMJC and the MJAA hold services and teach on many Torah topics

Shalom Tishri,

I agree with Mark. Messianic Judaism is not about Torah observance.

Back in the late 70's, I accepted Jesus as Messiah, Lord, and Savior. In the early 80's, I went to a Church (there were no Messianic Judaism congregations in my area).

I was very nervous about going into a Church because I viewed Churches as the place for Gentiles and I didn't know much about Gentiles but did have some anti-semitic experiences with Gentiles, so I didn't know what to expect.

I was the first Jewish believer in the area and the Gentiles were both shocked, and excited when I started to attend.

My experience at that time was not that uncommon.

I was told to stop calling myself a Jew because I was now a Christian. They didn't understand that I was born Jewish, and being a Jew was not a religion, although most Jewish people practice some form of Judaism.

I was quizzed when I said I was going to celebrate Passover, and invite some of the people over. They thought celebrating Passover was putting me under the law.

While Torah is a topic in Messianic Judaism, Messianic Judaism is not about Torah obedience. For the Jewish believers, we were all raised in the law to some degree. What we are united about is Yeshua. And the need for all people to come to faith in Yeshua. Most of us knew almost nothing about Yeshua or the NT prior to discovering Who He was. So, Torah and tradition was only a topic in light of our experiences with Churches and Christians. Not a topic of Messianic Judaism except in the sharing of experiences.

For the Gentiles who were joining us, we did explain the High Holy Days and how they point to Yeshua, and other things from the Tenakh. Among ourselves, we discussed how to share the gospel with our people, and what we were learning about Yeshua, and how we were blessed by Yeshua (which often included how He gave us boldness and peace in face of family members who opposed or rejected us or anti-missionaries who sometimes became physical, trying to prevent us from entering the MJAA conferences).

Today, you won't find any major Messianic Judaism organization which states that Torah keeping is a high priority/foundation. What you will find is the Tenakh and Brit Chadasha are equally the inspired words of God. And you will find encouragement to Jewish believers to remain Jewish and not assimilate.

While some in Messianic Judaism do practice the Mosaic law, most do not. When I say practice, I mean like or similar to Orthodox Judaism.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Just as its unfair to post that Torah has been nailed to the Cross, it is equally unfair to say that lawlessness is equal to sin and bait folks to debate Torah Observance....A mature MJ should know that this doesn't produce anything but resentment and defensiveness in our visitors and members..Torah is about teaching and instructing, not condemning but on the other hand, I haven't seen it portrayed that way in here in a long time.

I don't know if the right word is "unfair". Inaccurate seems more correct.

Scripture doesn't say that the Torah has been nailed to the cross but rather that our bill of charges incurred as a result of the violation of the Law has been nailed to the cross. I can certainly allow for differences of opinion when it comes to Torah observance. What I will not allow for is an accusation such as "you're one of the those who believe that Torah has been nailed to the cross". No, I'm not, because that's not what Scripture says. I don't know why anyone would believe that since it's not Scripturally upheld but I'm in agreement with you Sister Tishri that it is wrong to declare such a thing simply because one's level of Torah observance is different than another's.

 

[Tishri1]

Messianic Judaism is not defined as observers of Torah. So your statement is incorrect.

Messianic Judaism, at the minimum, celebrates the High Holy Days. So, if Templar celebrates Passover, and desires to join Messianic Jews in worship (and wants the Jewish people to hear about the Messiah), then Templar is a Messianic Gentile, and welcome in almost any Messianic Judaism congregation and recognized as Messianic.

My point is, Messianic Judaism has existed and exists, started by Messianic Jews. I don't appreciate the redefining of Messianic Judaism, and even worse, excluding of Messianic Gentiles you don't agree with.

Jerushabelle is also a Messianic Gentile and well within the community beliefs of Messianic Judaism.

You are correct in that there are many MJ's who come in not as observant and that's ok, but you are wrong to say Torah is not main stream MJ as it most certainly is. The Practise of Torah needs to be respected, not debated

 

[Qnts2]

I'm sorry CM but this is a horrible post and deserves no place on this forum

It's belittling, goading and as disruptive as can be

It flames everyone who loves Torah......extremely offensive

Hoping for understanding.

The way the word Torah is being used on this forum, is very strange to Jewish believers. The way you are using the word Torah is not the same way it is used in Judaism or Jewish communities.

So I'm not even sure what you mean when you say Torah, which does make it a loaded term.

 

[Tishri1]

I haven't seen any anger flying around yet but it is early. If anyone wants to get angry about any of this go eat a jelly donut. We're not here to argue but to DISCUSS and be PROACTIVE in coming to agreements, resolutions, solutions and in following the direction that the forum wants to go (which isn't 100% written in granite).

When we approach each other it should be in love not in resentment and with chips on our shoulders.

Please if this applies to anyone I hope that you pay attention. I know it does not apply to most of you.

God bless us in our effort to make our forum better.

Shalom.

Very well said David....very gracious and kind

...goes off to find a sugar free starch free jelly donut....

 

[Qnts2]

You are correct in that there are many MJ's who come in not as observant and that's ok, but you are wrong to say Torah is not main stream MJ as it most certainly is. The Practise of Torah needs to be respected, not debated

Again, I don't know what you mean by 'Torah is main stream'. The Torah is mainstream, but Keeping the Mosaic law is not main stream.

The practise of Torah is not a debate in Messianic Judaism. We all respect the Torah. What is an issue is that Messianic Judaism does not consider Torah obedience/Mosaic law as mandatory.

 

[Tishri1]

I think this is well written.

I want to add one thing. Messianic Judaism is primarily also an outreach into the Jewish community to share the good new of Yeshua. As an outreach, we do hold to certain things to accommodate the sharing of the gospel. If a Jewish person is going to reject Messianic Judaism, then it is our belief in Jesus which should be the cause of the rejection.

Now here is the issue on a forum like this. Jewish people will reject Messianic Judaism if Gentiles who are a part of Messianic Judaism wear Jewish clothing (Kippah) or wear a tallis which is not differentiated with Judaism. There are many other things but Messianic Judaism is a Jewish movement of Jews who believe on Yeshua, and want our families to hear the gospel. And to present the gospel in a manner which is absent of perceived anti-semitism. With the forum named Messianic Judaism, that makes this board viewed as representing Messianic Judaism to the Rabbinic Jewish community. And since Messianic Judaism is an outreach, bear in mind how you represent Messianic Judaism as you use the name of an movement started by Jewish believers whose goal is to reach the Jewish community with the news of Jesus.

MJ does not segregate Jews and Gentiles or make either group feel shame for how they dress. Main stream MJ accepts both groups as one people and neither forbids or demands a certain Jewish dress code

 

[aniello]

Wyandott. I just can't wait to see how this will be used against me...

Hau kola waste.

Livin' urban or Rez?

Buenas tardes y

ciaou bene

amba

 

[Tishri1]

agreeing with this. in reading over the posts, i have seen a number of members asking for the finger pointing and the flaming against their views to stop.
Understandably there are some wounds and hurt feelings behind those requests on both sides, and that hurt and the resulting anger is beginning to come out here in this thread. But that's all that it is.

it is just a reaction to what has been, and not an intention to continue it.

before we can all get past that hurt and anger, the clubs and hatchets, the 10 ft polls, and the raised shields need to come down, we need to wind down, stop, and take a breath.
We need to look around and see the larger picture rather than just seeing the next man in front of us whose ideas need to be fought.

there is a time and purpose for everything under heaven, and this is the time for adjustment between what was and what can be.

so who here is ready to say that starting today, they will make that effort on their own part to help this forum be a place of encouragement, edification, comfort, and joy for all MJ's?
Can we work together to make this possible?

Excellent post Pam, we soooo need this in here!!!

 

[Chaplain David]

Thank you Debi. I'll take the fully loaded one, in fact, two, sugared on the outside please lol.

During these efforts where we endeavor to help a forum improve there are always the doctrinal or spiritual disagreements. Some people often do not agree with the rules, want to change them or even implement new ones.

While these sometimes have a place and seem to be the center of attention what I have always found is the main problem in the forum is how members treat other members. Sometimes it is how members treat staff or vice versa but member to member communication that establishes the positive human relations in the forum are always what is needed to accomplish and maintain improvement and the ability to grow together as Christ wants us to.

As an example, there is an issue with Torah here. But making that the way everyone wants it is firstly impossible, and secondly not what will make this a thriving forum. I do not believe the Torah does anything by itself. It is our observance of it that is one of the keys.

What will give us the ingredients to accomplish all manner of good things is treating each other respectfully, kindly, basically as Christ wants us to treat each other.

There is nothing that we cannot discuss if it is done courteously and with listening ears. There is nothing we cannot discuss if the discussion takes place evenly and with love for our brothers and sisters.

The words from our mouths or as we do here, in writing, need (really need to be) solution oriented and not blaming. Rehashing old arguments or ripping the scabs off of old wounds is not helpful or healthy. It is in fact hurtful and makes any problem worse.

So I say, and will probably say again, let us look at and focus on the love that we have and if we do not have that love, pray on it, ask the Lord for it, ask the Lord for forgiveness, ask the Lord to get rid of any blame that may be caused by past real or perceived hurt, ask the Lord for us to help forgive each other and help each other in His name.

If we first and foremost concentrate on treating each other better and then apply this to what we are trying to achieve the outcome will be much better and we will get along better as well, and once again, that is what the Lord wants us to do.

Jesus Christ said love our neighbors as our selves. Here, in this forum we are our neighbors and must all look to His command, firm, yet gentle to do His work.

Shalom brothers and sisters.

Sacerdote (David)