Staff and Member discussion thread.

[ContraMundum]

Every thread doesn't need to be replied to, my advice is to avoid threads that you don't agree with

Considering I post perhaps the least of all on this forum in the last year, I would say your advice was well heeded by me long ago. I avoid all kinds of threads. Some I take on, because I have passion for the topic. That's what forums are FOR.

 

[ContraMundum]

Really, it is isn't all that different from what happened in the early body of believers when there were differing levels of Hebraic/Messianic thought amongst the Jews, some more so toward the Ebionite side of things concerning feeling they were meant to follow all aspects of the Mosaic Law given to the Hebrews, whereas there were others in varying levels of what they felt was necessary of Gentiles. And within that, the battles the Pharisees had amongst themselves...as evidenced in the School of Shemai (feeling Gentiles had to live as the Jews) vs the School of Hilel (which was for Gentiles following what Noah was about). One big happy family

Thank God the report button wasn't around in the 1stC.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

This illustrates basically our difference of understanding. I think that you can't clean a window with a hammer. To say that "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with" without understanding that there are a number of qualifying factors on the subject is to in fact make a case against "most Christians" that simply is not true. Anyone with a NT will discover that there are portions of the Torah that are no longer necessary. "Most Christians" are prepared to face that fact and accept it.

However, to make a statement that insinuates that "Most Christians" have no reverence and no regard to any part of the Torah is a slanderous lie, as almost every major Christian denomination not only teaches the moral law but the devout portion of its membership adheres to it, something some MJs, who gab on about the law incessantly, could learn from. The fact of the matter is that every mainstream catechism in history begins with the commandments. This is not evidence of "doing away" with the Torah.

Perhaps your cause would be better served by the elimination of such broad reaching and misleading statements such as "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with"

Maybe you can answer this cause honestly I don't know. I agree that there are Christians who heed the likes of Wesley and the Westmister Confession in regards to the Law of God. But I also see a more prevelant Law of Christ 'crowd'. From what I have gathered the Mosaic Law has been rendered done with and we are now under the Law of Christ. Although there a lot of resemblance between the two that doesn't mean the Law of Christ includes any Mosaic Law/s. One big diffidence I can see is that the Law of Christ doesn't include the 4th commandment.

So it a 'you say potatoe I say patatoe' type of thing?

 

[Qnts2]

Hi EZ, I hear ya, let's keep this discussion focused on the two main points I addressed in the OP though ok? One being debating against Torah and the other, name calling, or calling folks who identify themselves as MJ non-MJs

What do you consider against Torah?

Messianic Jews are not against Torah, but do not believe keeping the law is a requirement (Gentiles can keep the law but are not required to keep the law) . We view that as two different things.

 

[Avodat]

This illustrates basically our difference of understanding. I think that you can't clean a window with a hammer. To say that "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with" without understanding that there are a number of qualifying factors on the subject is to in fact make a case against "most Christians" that simply is not true. Anyone with a NT will discover that there are portions of the Torah that are no longer necessary. "Most Christians" are prepared to face that fact and accept it.

However, to make a statement that insinuates that "Most Christians" have no reverence and no regard to any part of the Torah is a slanderous lie, as almost every major Christian denomination not only teaches the moral law but the devout portion of its membership adheres to it, something some MJs, who gab on about the law incessantly, could learn from. The fact of the matter is that every mainstream catechism in history begins with the commandments. This is not evidence of "doing away" with the Torah.

Perhaps your cause would be better served by the elimination of such broad reaching and misleading statements such as "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with"

I have argued against these broad sweeps with the brush (or what I call the Americanisation of what ALL Christians are supposed to believe, live like or have services like) which often appear on these threads. People do not understand that it can be offensive and that most Christians in the rest of world do not believe or act like many American congregations appear to, according to a number of disaffected Christians on the MJ fora.

 

[MessianicMommy]

As my friend says: You should always try and walk a few miles in someone elses' shoes...by that time you are a miles from them and they don't have any shoes, so it's their problem!



(Sorry to make light of that phrase - couldn't resist. But you are right!)

I was in a short period of my walk with the Lord that I got caught up in 'you must keep the Law and if you don't...' or posting in ways that would suggest if you don't keep the Law you are going to be least.

Then I started to think about Messianic Judaism. I was born and raised Jewish in between reform and conservative which has always been an expression of traditions. It wasn't until recently because of this discussion that took me back. My family has always kept what they could in a traditional sense. We never built a Sukkot at home but we helped the synagogue build one as an example and we went in it. Much like the video I posted in a traditional sense. Traditionally speaking it wasn't in a binding sense it was what we do. Like in the Fiddler on the Roof, 'how did this tradition get started?'... 'I don't know'. But then he says it's a tradition, everyone knows who He is and what God expects.

I'm positive that most Messianic Jews view the holidays in this sense. But what is found in these traditions is fulfillment of 'the One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write'.

What I'm saying I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way, I'm sharing my experience and I think I speak for the majority of Jewish believers not to make any distinctions. I asked a great friend of mine who isn't Jewish who is also a fellow congregant about his wanting to be involved in the movement and how he views and feels about the high holidays and such. And does he ever feel these 'traditions' are binding? I wear a kippah in synagogue he doesn't as an example. He said he doesn't feel pressured to wear one or not wear one. He doesn't have a Seder at his home but will go to the community Seder and a family Seder on the 1st night at one of his Jewish friends he grew up with. I wish he would post here, I'll ask him.

Am I making sense?

I understand. In my understanding/experience, we have Messianics across about every field of Jewish observance, and a couple "flavors" of Christianity. Sometimes you walk in a place and know where they stand as far as their services, and sometimes it takes a while to find out. There are some who are pretty pushy about their beliefs without much explanation as to how/why, and there are others that are more "I'm ok, you're ok" - very positive places to be, with some common ground in place. It doesn't mean fights don't happen, but they're usually very well managed.

I really do think some of this is difference in personality types and some of it due to miscommunication.

I just wish we could work it out quickly.

Maybe you can answer this cause honestly I don't know. I agree that there are Christians who heed the likes of Wesley and the Westmister Confession in regards to the Law of God. But I also see a more prevelant Law of Christ 'crowd'. From what I have gathered the Mosaic Law has been rendered done with and we are now under the Law of Christ. Although there a lot of resemblance between the two that doesn't mean the Law of Christ includes any Mosaic Law/s. One big diffidence I can see is that the Law of Christ doesn't include the 4th commandment.

So it a 'you say potatoe I say patatoe' type of thing?

Well, in my church experience, if someone starts the "Law of Christ" stuff - they mean "Everything but the 10 commandments is moot, no good, and I don't know why we even have this other 3/4ths of the book - it doesn't apply to me and it makes no sense".

Some say that I have a narrow view when I bring that up, but that is the bulk of the Christian outlook on this in the South where I have lived (VA, SC/GA, AL, MS, TX) and also overseas (Spain/Germany). There have been very rare exceptions to that. It doesn't mean there aren't any who disagree, there just aren't many at all where I've been and the thousands of people I've met in my life.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Well, in my church experience, if someone starts the "Law of Christ" stuff - they mean "Everything but the 10 commandments is moot, no good, and I don't know why we even have this other 3/4ths of the book - it doesn't apply to me and it makes no sense".

The Law of Christ believers believe that the Mosaic Law is done with and we are now under the Law of Christ.

Others such as Wesley and Westminster confession don't say we are under a new law being the Law of Christ, but the moral of the Mosaic Law isn't done away with because of Christ, in fact is establishes it.

I've been reading about this. The Law of Christ is called dispensational compared to the moral of the Mosaic law being called covenantal theology. Covenantal theologies say the moral of the Old Testament, dispensationalists say the Law of Christ is completely new and has nothing to do with the Mosaic law or has no relation to it. I think the Puritans were what's called covenantal beliefs.

See the difference?

 

[ContraMundum]

Maybe you can answer this cause honestly I don't know. I agree that there are Christians who heed the likes of Wesley and the Westmister Confession in regards to the Law of God. But I also see a more prevelant Law of Christ 'crowd'. From what I have gathered the Mosaic Law has been rendered done with and we are now under the Law of Christ. Although there a lot of resemblance between the two that doesn't mean the Law of Christ includes any Mosaic Law/s. One big diffidence I can see is that the Law of Christ doesn't include the 4th commandment.

So it a 'you say potatoe I say patatoe' type of thing?

I see it rather more simply than that, brother. Loving one's neighbor fulfills the "Law of Christ", and loving God etc....you know that. To me, the word "Torah" is a loaded term around here, and that loading has made the term meaningless.

When someone who claims to be Jewish tells me that they are "Torah observant Messianics"...I have no idea what they believe, how they live, or what the Torah means to them. It's just a trendy throw-away line to me. The big questions are not addressed in such relative religiosity. Do they visit the sick? Feed the poor? Usually not. Usually they are basically religious in their heads but their hearts and hands are pretty much non-observant.

I know this from experience. As a minister of Jewish background and rearing, a lot (and the number is rising) of people come to me with questions about being Jewish and so forth. I have found that they are prepared to learn about Judaism, the OT feasts etc...but when I invite them to actually live Torah and work at our soup kitchen....they run a mile.

I think Jesus was really on to something in all this. He really does say that the heart of the Torah is love of God and neighbor, and when I see that this heart of the Torah is "too hard" for people wanting to be "Torah observant", I really think all the arguing about which law is done by whom and when etc is a complete waste of time.

What's worse (and now I will vent a little) is that these same kind of characters will then go around judging me as "not observant" or "not Jewish enough" or whatever strange fantasy enters their minds in order to hide their own guilt. The fact is that I own, daily use and treasure tefillin, a tallis or two etc. I study the Shulchan all the time. I read the Talmud. I do my best to attend to Moedim, but that sometimes must be put aside for service to my people and neighbor. I am, in fact, an authentic Messianic Jew. The difference is that I don't need to advertise. I wear my kippa on the inside, where it matters most.

So, when I see Christians teaching the commandments and preaching from the whole counsel of scripture and then going out and feeding the poor and visiting the sick...I agree with Jesus and say "well done thou faithful servant". I don't need to judge their observance of religious rituals or adherence to the feasts given to the Jewish people. That's not my job. I'm here to encourage the same mitzvahs that Jesus did, and I'm not here to make everyone a Jew.

Hope that helps....although I may have missed your question entirely! Sorry in advance.

 

[ContraMundum]

I have argued against these broad sweeps with the brush (or what I call the Americanisation of what ALL Christians are supposed to believe, live like or have services like) which often appear on these threads. People do not understand that it can be offensive and that most Christians in the rest of world do not believe or act like many American congregations appear to, according to a number of disaffected Christians on the MJ fora.

AMEN! You really understand this!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I see it rather more simply than that, brother. Loving one's neighbor fulfills the "Law of Christ", and loving God etc....you know that. To me, the word "Torah" is a loaded term around here, and that loading has made the term meaningless.

When someone who claims to be Jewish tells me that they are "Torah observant Messianics"...I have no idea what they believe, how they live, or what the Torah means to them. It's just a trendy throw-away line to me. The big questions are not addressed in such relative religiosity. Do they visit the sick? Feed the poor? Usually not. Usually they are basically religious in their heads but their hearts and hands are pretty much non-observant.

I know this from experience. As a minister of Jewish background and rearing, a lot (and the number is rising) of people come to me with questions about being Jewish and so forth. I have found that they are prepared to learn about Judaism, the OT feasts etc...but when I invite them to actually live Torah and work at our soup kitchen....they run a mile.

I think Jesus was really on to something in all this. He really does say that the heart of the Torah is love of God and neighbor, and when I see that this heart of the Torah is "too hard" for people wanting to be "Torah observant", I really think all the arguing about which law is done by whom and when etc is a complete waste of time.

What's worse (and now I will vent a little) is that these same kind of characters will then go around judging me as "not observant" or "not Jewish enough" or whatever strange fantasy enters their minds in order to hide their own guilt. The fact is that I own, daily use and treasure tefillin, a tallis or two etc. I study the Shulchan all the time. I read the Talmud. I do my best to attend to Moedim, but that sometimes must be put aside for service to my people and neighbor. I am, in fact, an authentic Messianic Jew. The difference is that I don't need to advertise. I wear my kippa on the inside, where it matters most.

So, when I see Christians teaching the commandments and preaching from the whole counsel of scripture and then going out and feeding the poor and visiting the sick...I agree with Jesus and say "well done thou faithful servant". I don't need to judge their observance of religious rituals or adherence to the feasts given to the Jewish people. That's not my job. I'm here to encourage the same mitzvahs that Jesus did, and I'm not here to make everyone a Jew.

Hope that helps....although I may have missed your question entirely! Sorry in advance.

Thanks that was awesome.

 

[Chaplain David]

The Law of Christ believers believe that the Mosaic Law is done with and we are now under the Law of Christ.

Others such as Wesley and Westminster confession don't say we are under a new law being the Law of Christ, but the moral of the Mosaic Law isn't done away with because of Christ, in fact is establishes it.

See the difference?

Hello, I will respond here because it is a good place to add my thoughts.

Mainstream Christian church doctrine believes that Mosaic Law has transitioned, you can say, done what it was supposed to do, etc. Although some hold closer to the law than others and others, not at all except in the way the Law is rewritten in the new testament. In all cases the place of Christ is above the law.

But in the case of our forum it is like Tish said (and I paraphrase), the MJ Forum is Torah Observantand it should not be critisized or made light of. Neither should those followers who are more strict in their adherence to the law.

On the other side of the coin, those MJ believers who are not as observing of the Torah and as strict about following it should not be made light of nor should they be critisized.

We can do this

Shalom

 

[Qnts2]

Templar right now you are prime example of what we MJs are trying to fix. You're anger towards anyone disagreeing with you is not the solution to our problem but instead fuel for the fire. We do not see you fellowshipping or edifying in our forum and yet you want to come in and tear down anything we are trying to build. And according to our SOP you are in violation. Messianic Judaism observes Torah and feel it is not done away with. And now you want to change that? Why? You don't even post in here. Why now?

Messianic Judaism is not defined as observers of Torah. So your statement is incorrect.

Messianic Judaism, at the minimum, celebrates the High Holy Days. So, if Templar celebrates Passover, and desires to join Messianic Jews in worship (and wants the Jewish people to hear about the Messiah), then Templar is a Messianic Gentile, and welcome in almost any Messianic Judaism congregation and recognized as Messianic.

My point is, Messianic Judaism has existed and exists, started by Messianic Jews. I don't appreciate the redefining of Messianic Judaism, and even worse, excluding of Messianic Gentiles you don't agree with.

Jerushabelle is also a Messianic Gentile and well within the community beliefs of Messianic Judaism.

 

[MessianicMommy]

The Law of Christ believers believe that the Mosaic Law is done with and we are now under the Law of Christ.

Others such as Wesley and Westminster confession don't say we are under a new law being the Law of Christ, but the moral of the Mosaic Law isn't done away with because of Christ, in fact is establishes it.

I've been reading about this. The Law of Christ is called dispensational compared to the moral of the Mosaic law being called covenantal theology. Covenantal theologies say the moral of the Old Testament, dispensationalists say the Law of Christ is completely new and has nothing to do with the Mosaic law or has no relation to it. I think the Puritans were what's called covenantal beliefs.

See the difference?

Yep, I've actually been trying to work on studying the different theological views on all of this. I actually believe I could do ok in a Methodist congregation. We believe differently on a few things, but their approach is less likely to end up with me being driven out like Frankenstein's monster, with them behind holding farming equipment and torches.

I think Jesus was really on to something in all this. He really does say that the heart of the Torah is love of God and neighbor, and when I see that this heart of the Torah is "too hard" for people wanting to be "Torah observant", I really think all the arguing about which law is done by whom and when etc is a complete waste of time.

What's worse (and now I will vent a little) is that these same kind of characters will then go around judging me as "not observant" or "not Jewish enough" or whatever strange fantasy enters their minds in order to hide their own guilt. The fact is that I own, daily use and treasure tefillin, a tallis or two etc. I study the Shulchan all the time. I read the Talmud. I do my best to attend to Moedim, but that sometimes must be put aside for service to my people and neighbor. I am, in fact, an authentic Messianic Jew. The difference is that I don't need to advertise. I wear my kippa on the inside, where it matters most.

So, when I see Christians teaching the commandments and preaching from the whole counsel of scripture and then going out and feeding the poor and visiting the sick...I agree with Jesus and say "well done thou faithful servant". I don't need to judge their observance of religious rituals or adherence to the feasts given to the Jewish people. That's not my job. I'm here to encourage the same mitzvahs that Jesus did, and I'm not here to make everyone a Jew.

Hope that helps....although I may have missed your question entirely! Sorry in advance.

And this is where some of us need to really grow and look at not just others, but ourselves and find out why we are being so reactionary to others, and why we view it that way.

I know I've come off rough around the edges over years, but a lot of my questioning and "accusatory" reactions have been because I was wrestling so terribly with the lies I had been taught, and it was a constant struggle to figure out what was what.

There aren't many opportunities for worship with the little ones I have, or for volunteering, but I am looking at our finances to make sure we are supporting people where G-d is leading us right now.

With our large homeless population, it doesn't make sense not to provide and share with our small abundance, and with the teaching we've greatly benefited from, I want to make sure we support the TV channel that has brought us such gems, so they don't go away. From there, as things improve, I'd like to be able to give to other charities. As the children grow, and my health improves, I'd like to put my money where my mouth is, and get out there and do as well as give..

 

[Chaplain David]

I haven't seen any anger flying around yet but it is early. If anyone wants to get angry about any of this go eat a jelly donut. We're not here to argue but to DISCUSS and be PROACTIVE in coming to agreements, resolutions, solutions and in following the direction that the forum wants to go (which isn't 100% written in granite).

When we approach each other it should be in love not in resentment and with chips on our shoulders.

Please if this applies to anyone I hope that you pay attention. I know it does not apply to most of you.

God bless us in our effort to make our forum better.

Shalom.

 

[Qnts2]

Hello, I will respond here because it is a good place to add my thoughts.

Mainstream Christian church doctrine believes that Mosaic Law has transitioned, you can say, done what it was supposed to do, etc. Although some hold closer to the law than others and others, not at all except in the way the Law is rewritten in the new testament. In all cases the place of Christ is above the law.

But in the case of our forum it is like Tish said (and I paraphrase), the MJ Forum adheres to the Torah and it should not be critisized or made light of. Neither should those followers who are more strict in their adherence to the law.

On the other side of the coin, those MJ believers who are not as close to the Torah and as strict about following it should not be made light of nor should they be critisized.

We can do this

Shalom

I think this is well written.

I want to add one thing. Messianic Judaism is primarily also an outreach into the Jewish community to share the good new of Yeshua. As an outreach, we do hold to certain things to accommodate the sharing of the gospel. If a Jewish person is going to reject Messianic Judaism, then it is our belief in Jesus which should be the cause of the rejection.

Now here is the issue on a forum like this. Jewish people will reject Messianic Judaism if Gentiles who are a part of Messianic Judaism wear Jewish clothing (Kippah) or wear a tallis which is not differentiated with Judaism. There are many other things but Messianic Judaism is a Jewish movement of Jews who believe on Yeshua, and want our families to hear the gospel. And to present the gospel in a manner which is absent of perceived anti-semitism. With the forum named Messianic Judaism, that makes this board viewed as representing Messianic Judaism to the Rabbinic Jewish community. And since Messianic Judaism is an outreach, bear in mind how you represent Messianic Judaism as you use the name of an movement started by Jewish believers whose goal is to reach the Jewish community with the news of Jesus.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hello, I will respond here because it is a good place to add my thoughts.

Mainstream Christian church doctrine believes that Mosaic Law has transitioned, you can say, done what it was supposed to do, etc. Although some hold closer to the law than others and others, not at all except in the way the Law is rewritten in the new testament. In all cases the place of Christ is above the law.

You're saying Christ is the focus? Is what I've read about dispensational theology which doesn't believe that the Mosaic Law has transitioned and completely replaced by the Law of Christ not mainstream Christianity? I see a lot of this debate in online forums about the Law of Christ completely replacing the Mosaic Law.

But in the case of our forum it is like Tish said (and I paraphrase), the MJ Forum adheres to the Torah and it should not be critisized or made light of. Neither should those followers who are more strict in their adherence to the law.

Absolutely.

On the other side of the coin, those MJ believers who are not as close to the Torah and as strict about following it should not be made light of nor should they be critisized.

I find this more prevelant.

We can do this

Shalom

 

[Avodat]

Hello, I will respond here because it is a good place to add my thoughts.

Mainstream Christian church doctrine believes that Mosaic Law has transitioned, you can say, done what it was supposed to do, etc. Although some hold closer to the law than others and others, not at all, except in the way the Law is rewritten in the new testament. In all cases the place of Christ is above the law.

But in the case of our forum it is like Tish said (and I paraphrase), the MJ Forum adheres to the Torah and it should not be critisized or made light of. Neither should those followers who are more strict in their adherence to the law.

On the other side of the coin, those MJ believers who are not as close to the Torah and as strict about following it should not be made light of nor should they be critisized.

We can do this

Shalom

I serve in a 'mainstream denomination' and there is no way the law is re-written in the 'new' testament. Yeshua was quite clear on this and, when asked which is the most important law, he opted for part of Torah (the Sh'ma)! Paul also writes that the law is good and still in effect and that he believes in it, and in the writings of the prophets as well.

Yeshua was subject to the law when walking this earth - he is not above it, he is it! He it is to whom the Spirit points.

 

[Chaplain David]

I serve in a 'mainstream denomination' and there is no way the law is re-written in the 'new' testament. Yeshua was quite clear on this and, when asked which is the most important law, he opted for part of Torah (the Sh'ma)! Paul also writes that the law is good and still in effect and that he believes in it, and in the writings of the prophets as well.

Yeshua was subject to the law when walking this earth - he is not above it, he is it! He it is to whom the Spirit points.

It might be interesting to have a thread about this sometime (protestant denominations view of the OT law), perhaps in another part of the forum, because there are varying views as there is with much else in protestant country, but it is really not relevant to this discussion because you are not protestants.

As far as Paul's inspired contribution to the New Testament, I think it is grand. But personally I am expanding my outlook, partially because of positive interactions and knowledge about MJ.

Also, the discussion and debate with Tishri's stated intentions and our framework of rules and SOP's, include things like how can we improve the forum, get along better, not be nasty to each other, get rid of chips some of us may have on our shoulders? We need to work on this. It will make things better.

 

[pdudgeon]

I haven't seen any anger flying around yet but it is early. If anyone wants to get angry about any of this go eat a jelly donut. We're not here to argue but to DISCUSS and be PROACTIVE in coming to agreements, resolutions, solutions and in following the direction that the forum wants to go (which isn't 100% written in granite).

When we approach each other it should be in love not in resentment and with chips on our shoulders.

Please if this applies to anyone I hope that you pay attention. I know it does not apply to most of you.

God bless us in our effort to make our forum better.

Shalom.

agreeing with this. in reading over the posts, i have seen a number of members asking for the finger pointing and the flaming against their views to stop.
Understandably there are some wounds and hurt feelings behind those requests on both sides, and that hurt and the resulting anger is beginning to come out here in this thread. But that's all that it is.

it is just a reaction to what has been, and not an intention to continue it.

before we can all get past that hurt and anger, the clubs and hatchets, the 10 ft polls, and the raised shields need to come down, we need to wind down, stop, and take a breath.
We need to look around and see the larger picture rather than just seeing the next man in front of us whose ideas need to be fought.

there is a time and purpose for everything under heaven, and this is the time for adjustment between what was and what can be.

so who here is ready to say that starting today, they will make that effort on their own part to help this forum be a place of encouragement, edification, comfort, and joy for all MJ's?
Can we work together to make this possible?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

. Loving one's neighbor fulfills the "Law of Christ", and loving God etc....you know that. To me, the word "Torah" is a loaded term around here, and that loading has made the term meaningless.

When someone who claims to be Jewish tells me that they are "Torah observant Messianics"...I have no idea what they believe, how they live, or what the Torah means to them. It's just a trendy throw-away line to me. The big questions are not addressed in such relative religiosity. Do they visit the sick? Feed the poor? Usually not. Usually they are basically religious in their heads but their hearts and hands are pretty much non-observant.

I know this from experience. As a minister of Jewish background and rearing, a lot (and the number is rising) of people come to me with questions about being Jewish and so forth. I have found that they are prepared to learn about Judaism, the OT feasts etc...but when I invite them to actually live Torah and work at our soup kitchen....they run a mile.

I think Jesus was really on to something in all this. He really does say that the heart of the Torah is love of God and neighbor, and when I see that this heart of the Torah is "too hard" for people wanting to be "Torah observant", I really think all the arguing about which law is done by whom and when etc is a complete waste of time.

What's worse (and now I will vent a little) is that these same kind of characters will then go around judging me as "not observant" or "not Jewish enough" or whatever strange fantasy enters their minds in order to hide their own guilt. The fact is that I own, daily use and treasure tefillin, a tallis or two etc. I study the Shulchan all the time. I read the Talmud. I do my best to attend to Moedim, but that sometimes must be put aside for service to my people and neighbor. I am, in fact, an authentic Messianic Jew. The difference is that I don't need to advertise. I wear my kippa on the inside, where it matters most.

So, when I see Christians teaching the commandments and preaching from the whole counsel of scripture and then going out and feeding the poor and visiting the sick...I agree with Jesus and say "well done thou faithful servant". I don't need to judge their observance of religious rituals or adherence to the feasts given to the Jewish people. That's not my job. I'm here to encourage the same mitzvahs that Jesus did, and I'm not here to make everyone a Jew.

Hope that helps....although I may have missed your question entirely! Sorry in advance.

Solid. Couldn't have been said better...but regardless of how many within MJism have noted the same, it is rather amazing seeing that it's deemed as either too "easy" or "not enough" to serve/love others practically ..as if that was not the heart of Torah to begin with, according to what Christ said in Luke 10:25-39.

When it is at the point that doing what the Lord commanded--loving Widows and orphans and walking justly/humbly and love mercy ( Micah 6:7-9 Micah 6, James 2:12-14/ James 2 )--something is wrong. And I say that in light of how often I saw many within certain Hebrew Roots circles literally dismiss anyone as not loving God's law as much as them since they often talk on it/how much more observant they were.....even though they'd NEVER go out of the way to love/serve others practically and were only focused on the theological.

James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
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But truthfully, this is the scripture that also came to my mind when it comes to how often we compare ourselves with others to determine who is...or isn't more "observant"--and yet in all of it, it seems to be more of a matter of trusting in one's own righteousness:

Luke 18:9-15


The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

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