Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Avodat]

It might be interesting to have a thread about this sometime (protestant denominations view of the OT law), perhaps in another part of the forum, because there are varying views as there is with much else in protestant country, but it is really not relevant to this discussion because you are not protestants.

As far as Paul's inspired contribution to the New Testament, I think it is grand. But personally I am expanding my outlook, partially because of positive interactions and knowledge about MJ.

Also, the discussion and debate with Tishri's stated intentions and our framework of rules and SOP's, include things like how can we improve the forum, get along better, not be nasty to each other, get rid of chips some of us may have on our shoulders? We need to work on this. It will make things better.

Not sure why you chose to have bold print, but to address the points in it: I have constantly suggested ways to improve the form - one of which was the 'Anything Torah!' name. Most other suggestions have been welcomed, and dropped! I have no problem with most posters and I do not get nasty with people although I do get frustrated, as most do at times. As to chips on my shoulder - the main one is people misrepesenting the Church. I am a protestant, and so are you! That I am also a Messianic means that I am even more of a protestant, not less! The Messianic Movement is protestant - it is a breakaway from Christianity and Judaism in favour of being between the two. How much more protestant can you get?

 

[Henaynei]

so who here is ready to say that starting today, they will make that effort on their own part to help this forum be a place of encouragement, edification, comfort, and joy for all MJ's?
Can we work together to make this possible?

I am.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[pdudgeon]

Not sure why you chose to have bold print, but to address the points in it: I have constantly suggested ways to improve the form - one of which was the 'Anything Torah!' name. Most other suggestions have been welcomed, and dropped! I have no problem with most posters and I do not get nasty with people although I do get frustrated, as most do at times. As to chips on my shoulder - the main one is people misrepesenting the Church. I am a protestant, and so are you! That I am also a Messianic means that I am even more of a protestant, not less! The Messianic Movement is protestant - it is a breakaway from Christianity and Judaism in favour of being between the two. How much more protestant can you get?

as a suggestion, if you could work towards a transition between what you have done in the past and what you would like to do as a part of this forum, what would that be?

 

[Chaplain David]

I am.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Amen Henaynei

I am still embarrassed for calling you sir the other day


Shalom

 

[Avodat]

as a suggestion, if you could work towards a transition between what you have done in the past and what you would like to do as a part of this forum, what would that be?

Hahaha! I've tried one-man suggestions while I have been here - posters have often agreed but not staff so, by and large, no notice is taken and I can't be bothered any more.

 

[Chaplain David]

Not sure why you chose to have bold print, but to address the points in it: I have constantly suggested ways to improve the form - one of which was the 'Anything Torah!' name. Most other suggestions have been welcomed, and dropped! I have no problem with most posters and I do not get nasty with people although I do get frustrated, as most do at times. As to chips on my shoulder - the main one is people misrepesenting the Church. I am a protestant, and so are you! That I am also a Messianic means that I am even more of a protestant, not less! The Messianic Movement is protestant - it is a breakaway from Christianity and Judaism in favour of being between the two. How much more protestant can you get?

I like bold print to emphasize things but I don't overdo it. I am not the leader her. That would be Debi. But I support all proactive things that are within the framework of the rules and SOP. That is our AO as we used to say in the army (area of operation). We all have chips of one kind or another. I wasn't referring mainly to you as it appears to be mainly in the minority but they are things Christ calls us to get rid of. God bless you and for your interest in trying to make our MJ forum better.

 

[Chaplain David]

Hahaha! I've tried one-man suggestions while I have been here - posters have often agreed but not staff so, by and large, no notice is taken and I can't be bothered any more.

We welcome suggestions remembering the OP and the framework we are working within. We will do our best to help. It may not be considered wonderful by all. But it will be our best. I think(and I don't aim this at you but more to everyone) giving the benefit of the doubt and being deferential goes a long way in problem solving and keeping negative emotions at bay which just squelch creativity not to mention brotherly love IMO. Thank you for your suggestions. GBU.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

It might be interesting to have a thread about this sometime (protestant denominations view of the OT law), perhaps in another part of the forum, because there are varying views as there is with much else in protestant country, but it is really not relevant to this discussion because you are not protestants.

That would be interesting. I want to know how different denominations interpret the Law of Christ.

 

[pdudgeon]

Hahaha! I've tried one-man suggestions while I have been here - posters have often agreed but not staff so, by and large, no notice is taken and I can't be bothered any more.

you aren't the only member to whom that has happened, though.
But that was then, and it is behind us. this is now.

There are staff here now who are listening and who are willing to work with the members here towards an MJ forum that can better serve it's members.
we're not asking you to volunteer anything off the bat, but just to think about what and how you would like to contribute towards the forum to make it better for everyone. ok?

 

[Chaplain David]

you aren't the only member to whom that has happened, though.
But that was then, and it is behind us. this is now.

There are staff here now who are listening and who are willing to work with the members here towards an MJ forum that can better serve it's members.
we're not asking you to volunteer anything off the bat, but just to think about what and how you would like to contribute towards the forum to make it better for everyone. ok?

Very true and deserving of a lot of emoticons

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If you think that's wild you should have been here in 777 when all was the forums were run in wikis and members made all the rules and controlled all staff! Crazy days!

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

Rule by the Mob, it seems...and that'd be horrible

 

[Qnts2]

The Messianic Movement is protestant - it is a breakaway from Christianity and Judaism in favour of being between the two. How much more protestant can you get?

Growing up in Judaism, the various Christian denominations were very confusing. I thought protestant was another Christian denomination, like Baptist, Epicopalian, etc.

After believing on Yeshua, it took several years to realize the Protestant was for Protest, and breaking from the RCC.

I don't see myself as Protestant.

But I also don't see myself as breaking away from Judaism. Judaism believes in the Messiah, but are still waiting for him. I think we missed Him, as Yeshua is the Messiah. Had Judaism recognized Yeshua the Messiah, then all of Judaism would be Messianic Judaism.

I also don't see myself as breaking away from Christianity. In the sense of the body of Messiah, born again believers, Messianic Jews are Christians. Messianic and Christian are synonyms. Messianic is more Jewish, and Christian is more Gentile. Jews say Messiah, Gentiles usually say Christ. Messianic Judaism has a Jewish view so has some differences, but no differences on the essentials of salvation.

 

[pdudgeon]

Rule by the Mob, it seems...and that'd be horrible

and yet many survived and even flourished as a result--including CF!
but the key then just as it is here and now, is not just to tear something down, but to make something better that can serve everyone.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

and yet many survived and even flourished as a result--including CF!
but the key then just as it is here and now, is not just to tear something down, but to make something better that can serve everyone.

Feeling as if all are valued/able to be expressed is always key. ..on all sides. If people know how to get along to get along or just know that you don't have to convince anyone or agree in order to live in the same neighborhood or have your children play on the same playground as someone else's children, things can always work out. Alot of the debates here seem similar to what happens in neighborhood board meetings, as some neighbors don't like the fact that others have certain things in their yards/talk to certain neighbors while other neighbors want neighbors down the block to look just like their home....and then there's the proverbial "witch hunt" where other neighbors band together to go against others in the neighborhood who don't agree with what that group may want.


And yet in all of that, no one remembers that they all live in the same neighborhood. Paying bills/signing on to the Community rules/boundaries to live in that neighborhood---and all trying to live their lives to the best of their ability. Many dealt with that by getting to really know others personally rather than trying to force them to agree fully with all of what they noted before they'd really care for them. And if they disagreed on things, they left it alone/lived life. The same is true for this forum as well, IMHO. It's very easy to forget that someone across the screen/behind the keyboard is a person with a life and experiences different than your own---and provided that people stay within the boundaries of the MJish forum/SOP format as well as respecting one another, alot of things could be dealt with if perhaps there'd be prayer before responding........or if people could really live life with one another instead of just arguing with each other

I don't really have an issue with people differing from me, as I grew up with it/learned to deal with it by simply celebrating the diversity in it. I do, however, get bothered whenever others not only want to disagree...but then try to force agreement/say my disagreeing with them means I don't really want them to have freedom to believe what they wish....even though the same place we came to/agreed to work with the boundaries they gave allows for us to have differences in viewpoint. It'd be like a neighbor having a block party in one side of the neighborhood and being told by the neighbors they don't prefer having parties like that---but the moment the other neighbors have parties of their own that are different and may not be what another neighbor prefers, there's a fight to make it "law" for all tea parties to be as certain neighbors want....and the entire time that is happening, the boundaries that the Community board set up for parties/certain allowances are being allowed.

Unity within Diversity ( #108 )

AS said before elsewhere, I truly think the central reason behind friction is the inability to disagree agreeably...and truly do as Proverbs notes when it comes to knowing how to dialouge, not cause strife, be respectful/patient and more concerned with how to encourage one another rather than making sure EVERYONE agrees with their own perspective--or else. When I used to be more so involved with things such as "discernment" blogs/"Christian Watchdog" organizations, I used to see all the time people claim others didn't listen to them because they loved "false teachings" they were calling out---but not many chose to consider that perhaps it was simply because they in their approach didn't really seem to show they cared for the person talked to---and they didn't know how to talk to others unless they first agreed fully with them (more shared here and here )

James 3:12-18

Two Kinds of Wisdom

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers

James 4:1111 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?



​

I'm certain that in the times James lived in, there were alot of fights occurring and others thinking of one another "If we just agreed the way I think, we'd get along"--and even thinking less of the other's walk with the Lord or feeling like they didn't honor their Jewish heritage as much as the other--but James made clear it was really an issue of knowing how to interact that was central.

I get really grieved whenever I hear of Jews saying they don't want to be apart of the MJish movement and saying it had nothing to do with what was discussed about "Law/Torah"--but rather everything to do with how they didn't really see a focus on the person of Yeshua and His finished work at the Cross...and reaching others were they were.

How is it we can have sharp debates about what aspect of the Torah one is to keep---and yet seldom have discussions where we all encourage one another/ask for how we can pray for each other? How is it we can easily go to war with one another over Kosher/the level one's comfortable with---and yet never discuss REAL life issues such as whether or not we're reaching the homeless/those trapped in poverty, evangelism amongsts prostitutes/those addicted to drugs, movies we've seen and how to reach out to young adults amongst a host of other things we all see in everyday life.

Acts 2:41-43

The Fellowship of the Believers

42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.

Acts 13:52
And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:4-6 5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
​

Ephesians 4:2-4/
2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:29-31/
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

Ephesians 5:17-19 /
17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ.

​

..................

I really appreciate threads made based in fellowship, as others have tried to make (noted here #80 ) but never got alot of participation...and I think a good deal of change can/always will begin with how much we can be real with each other/involved----and sadly, the farthest most people will go online is through exchanges via a keyboard...rather than going the extra mile/"getting in the trenches" with each other offline and seeing how much people experience REAL life...

That, and the fact that many of us can never laugh together----so doubtful many times that one can ever expect growing with each other together. Some things would be cured if we could all learn to not take things so seriously at times....and just chill, as many times it's really not that deep. And when it comes to being light-hearted, it's amazing to see how much more easier it is to get through life...and with people...

Proverbs 15:13
A happy heart makes the face cheerful, but heartache crushes the spirit.

Proverbs 15:15
All the days of the oppressed are wretched, but the cheerful heart has a continual feast

Proverbs 15:30
A cheerful look brings joy to the heart, and good news gives health to the bones.



​

It's amazing much of a difference getting to know/walk with people can change many of the things others have often thought were never able to be changed...


Differences should go to the wayside when one is in need of comfort. And we should be rejoicing with those who rejoice despite our differences...especially when we realize we're all fighting as members of the SAME BODY who need to life each other up.

For really, one cannot argue with another if they're praying for them---and how many things do we have to agree on before we can actually lift one another up as we're commanded to in the Word ( Colossians 4:11-13 / /Ephesians 6:17-19/ , John 13:1 , John 17:20-22 //etc)? How many things do we have to agree with each other on before we can worship the Lord through our interactions by showing we're concerned for the parts of His body---and choosing to "weep with those who weep/rejoice with those who rejoice" ( Romans 12:14-16 /1 Corinthians 12:25-27/ )?

Galatians 6:2
Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 133

A song of ascents. Of David.

1 How good and pleasant it is
when brothers live together in unity! 2 It is like precious oil poured on the head, running down on the beard,
running down on Aaron's beard,
down upon the collar of his robes.
3 It is as if the dew of Hermon
were falling on Mount Zion.

1 Thessalonians 5:11
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
1 Thessalonians 5:10-12

Hebrews 10:24-26/
4And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
​

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What I don't understand is why some, not all on this forum; cannot take a stance that there are others all along the road of observance - share your view and move on if you disagree. There are AMICABLE ways to talk about what I believe and what You believe, and what s/he believes and they do... without it ever becoming anything other than thinking and working positively with those facts.

Sure the MJAA does xzy, and the UCMJ does abc and BSS in Germany does def and IAMCS does ghi and so and so does zbeh... when it comes to the forum, we COULD discuss that without everyone getting their underoos in a wad. It's where we all as adults have to move past our hurts, our baggage and just decide to either not discuss, or bow out before things get too heated.

I believe at this point it might be beneficial for us to just take any debate off the table and work on fellowship, and then perhaps we can bring it back.

Some of this comes down to personality types, but most of this has to do with the dynamic that has changed with some of our newer posters and older posters. I know it doesn't look like I've been here a long time, but I was here under my old username for quite a while and know most everyone here, even if some do not remember me.

The forum WAS doing much better when I rejoined than I had seen it in a long, long time. However, there's been some fur flying as of late that has seen several valuable posters leave.

I've wondered if perhaps working through some books together that are bible study and/or church and messianic history together might mend some of this brokenness, and also if perhaps some rules in place that help change our paradigm and way of thinking of/about others might assist us all.

But, there is so much "you" and "I" accusatory statements that I wonder if anyone could possibly step outside of their comfort zones and walk a few miles in each others shoes and still come out amicably agreeing to disagree or if it would just make it all worse...

In all of what you were noting, part of me couldn't help but wonder how often it has been the case that people disagreeing with each other will be as quick to ask earnestly "How can I pray with you/lift you up" as we all may be in telling one another how the other needs serious prayer for how they think. The same thing goes for other dynamics such as well ...as it concerns geunine encouragement/appreciation.

Personally, there've been alot of times I've thought from afar how there's something beautiful about EVERY poster on this forum that I can thank the Lord for...and often, it's not really seen enough when it comes to noting where others are beautiful since it often seems to be the case that fighting to encourage one another isn't as important trying to convince one another. But encourage we must:

2 Corinthians 13:11
[ Final Greetings ] Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
2 Corinthians 13:10-12

1 Thessalonians 5:11
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
1 Thessalonians 5:10-12

2 Thessalonians 1:3
[ Thanksgiving and Prayer ] We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing.
2 Thessalonians 1:2-4
​

I'd dare say that many (including others who left sadly) would've preferred any day to have simple discussion/encouraging interaction with others, even in disagreements, where people could walk away either laughing or glad others process. There are many people I'd love to chill/sit down with...but many times, it can be very odd since one can easily feel there's so much bad beef under the surface that even considering mentioning anything of encouragement makes one think it'll be slapped away the moment it's offerred because others think the worst of someone (i.e. Thinking they're not "observant" enough, thinking they're trying to "control" others, assuming others are not sincere, feeling like others are easily offended, etc)----and thus, they may hold back. Threads on prayer requests/encouraging one another, regardless of one's stance, may go a long way in keeping things focused on what counts the most.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I don't know how many are aware of what's called the New Perspective on Paul but it's an interesting and convincing perspective. In general most Christian theology is based on Pauline epistle's with a misunderstanding of Paul. This misunderstanding is centered around texts such as 1 Corinth 9:20. The likes of Nanos provides good stuff what Paul meant and makes convincing that Paul was always Torah observant but has been misunderstood that he wasn't based on 1 Corinth 9:20 as well as other texts.

The misunderstanding of Paul is the result of Christian theology.

I have been a proponent of this misunderstanding in other forums. This is my opinion. A lot of believers resist this because their theology is based on Paul and if Paul was Torah observant that means I as a believer have to be Torah observant like Paul. But that isn't the point of the New Perspective anyway. The jist is a Jew like Paul was Torah observant and able to do so in ministering and preaching the Gospel to non Jews. He didn't become like a Gentile and broke the commandments so he could relate to them and preach the Gospel.

An example would be Paul calling out Peter when Peter got up from among the Gentiles when Peter saw the Jews from Judea. Most believers believe that Peter was eating unclean foods. You can eat with Gentiles and not break Lev 11 right? I mean Cornelius being in the synagogue would have known not to serve Peter contrary to Lev 11 right? Why isn't it possible that Peter and Paul could have ate and fellow shipped with Gentiles without transgressing?

Quote from Wright; "When Saul became a Christian, Wright contends, he maintained the Jewish shape of his doctrine, but filled it with new content. The zeal of Saul the Pharisee was now the zeal of Paul the Apostle; God’s covenant faithfulness (righteousness) with regard to the covenant people was indeed fulfilled, in the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.



http://www.thepaulpage.com/a-summary-of-the-new-perspective-on-paul/

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I actually believe I could do ok in a Methodist congregation. We believe differently on a few things, but their approach is less likely to end up with me being driven out like Frankenstein's monster, with them behind holding farming equipment and torches.

Felt sorry for Frankenstein...

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom All,

That is the most important thing in this Messianic Judaism faith group according to many that have posted. Shalom, right? If you really love me, you will shut up about keeping Torah, right? There has been a few messages in support of this view. And a video! The command is given: Watch it.

OK, I watched it.

Facetious sarcasm begins.​

And what is the message? Well didn't you see the video based on the Messianic 'rabbi' Doug Friedman, an engineer from MIT (oooohh!!!). His credentials include: B.S. Aeronautical Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1967); M.E. Aerospace Sciences, Cornell University (1968); Master of Arts: Biblical & Theological Studies, Diversified, Talbot Theological Seminary, Biola University (in process). Hey I'm impressed! Aren't you?

He says the differences in Messianic Judaism Torah observance is "like fighting over a penny". I don't do penny jokes.

Look! There is only 1% difference between the two groups according to his very professional looking pie chart. And there is the opening line from his on-line study:

'Different perspectives exist in the messianic movement on the applicability of the Mosaic Law to the New Covenant believer in our present Dispensation of Grace'​

Oh! He's a Hebrew Christian! Ahh...

Oh! I feel a little dizzy. I need to sit. Let me take a 'Dispensation of Grace' moment for all that to sink in... Ahhh! Now doesn't that feel better? No?

Let me take another 'Dispensation of Grace' moment for that to sink in further... Hmm... Still no luck.

Perhaps it's time for the video clip of the Rodney King asking , "Can't we all just get along?"

WAIT! NOT SO FAST! I need another moment...

Nope, still don't get it. ​

Ah! Now I get it!

Well if there is only 1% difference between the two and we are in the DISPENSATION OF GRACE after all, then we should just give up trying, right? Nothing to contend over, right? Those of us that do see it differently or are more observant than what this attendee of a reputable Christian Theological Seminary concludes appropriate; we should just roll over and toe the line, right? After all, that is what Steve Shermett of Congregation Beth Sar Shalom concludes in this video - 'The 'Law of Moses'. It isn't for New Testament believers. So it MUST be true, right?

Hey, it's not only IN PRINT, they GOT A VIDEO too! What more do you want?

He's an engineer from MIT, y'know. His numbers must be right. I doulbt he has ANY Christian theological bias either - like maybe Dispensationalism? Naw... And both Doug and Steve, their congregations are both members of the Association of Messianic Congregations, so that must mean something, right? It's Messianic for gosh sakes! ...right?

From the AMC website:
The Believer and the Law of Moses
We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life...

Last Things
We believe that upon physical death believers enter into the joyous presence of God, whereas non-believers enter into conscious suffering apart from God. We believe in the personal, bodily, visible, and pre-millennial return of the Lord Yeshua...

Wow, how convenient! You don't have to really change any inward behavior to jump from your local church to come to their 'Messianic Shul'! Don't forget to bring your T&O! You get to play 'Messianic dress-up'! All you have to do is accessorize a bit and you can even borrow your kippah, your tallit and even your tichel right here - till you get your own! Just keep the 'Ten' and wait for the Rapture! Your Sunday potluck is our Oneg Shabbat and it's all Torah optional. Whoo hoo!!

Tish, after what I have read overnight, I feel completely at ease knowing that THE TEMPLAR, defender of the Jews, is on our side. Really. Such a level head and even hand too.

And look at this cast of characters that have assembled for the singing of Kumbaya! We have the 'Torah isn't for Gentiles' Hebrew Christian Messianics, all these newly minted non-Denom Messianics coming over to save us, several Messianics of convenience and a number of non-Messianics. Confidence. that's the word I'm looking for. It gives me confidence.

C'mon Y'all, let's gather round the campfire and watch the ashes of Torah burn in the moonlight! It'll be fun! "Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya; Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya; Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya, O Lord, kum bay ya."

Forget about kashrut! Let's break out the marshmallows and frankfurters! And all we have to do is hold hands and pray and sing and dance everything will be all right! Right? And look! There really isn't any doctrinal differences between Mainstream Christianity and Messianic Judaism. As a matter of fact, there are no adherents of Messianic Judaism. We are all mainstream Christians (doctrinally speaking of course) after all. And THAT is how we achieve Shalom in Messianic Judaism! Assimilate! (Now where is that cute little heart-shaped smiley when you really need it?)

Facetious sarcasm ends.​

Why can't we all just get along? Because and not despite of our majority in the forum, the anti-Torah proponents will not let us have any degree of shalom concerning Torah observance in the main forum. You all know the tactics: Tag-team antagonism, cut n past overload, derail the discussion, attack our core beliefs no matter what we discuss. Just look at this thread.

Every thing we talk about, think about and dream about, all relates back to Torah and Messiah. So, in your plan, the Torah observant should now just sit on their hands while these 'Dispensation of Grace Messianics' fellowship with the visitors to the Messianic Judaism forum and tell them that Messianic Judaism believes that Torah "as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation"? Really?? Please show me where Messiah said that you shouldn't try to keep that 1% if it is indeed only 1%. You cannot show me a single instance of Him saying that ANY of the law is done away with. But I can show you PLENTY of places where He says the exact opposite.

How opportune that several of the more vocal proponents of Torah observance are 'missing' right now. Nothing personal Tish, but this attempt to end the divisiveness here is turning more into a blatant attempt to push the Torah observant out of this faith group. Now take a moment - and look who is doing the pushing.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

<snip>

I want to add one thing. Messianic Judaism is primarily also an outreach into the Jewish community to share the good new of Yeshua. As an outreach, we do hold to certain things to accommodate the sharing of the gospel. If a Jewish person is going to reject Messianic Judaism, then it is our belief in Jesus which should be the cause of the rejection.

Now here is the issue on a forum like this. Jewish people will reject Messianic Judaism if Gentiles who are a part of Messianic Judaism wear Jewish clothing (Kippah) or wear a tallis which is not differentiated with Judaism. There are many other things but Messianic Judaism is a Jewish movement of Jews who believe on Yeshua, and want our families to hear the gospel. And to present the gospel in a manner which is absent of perceived anti-semitism. With the forum named Messianic Judaism, that makes this board viewed as representing Messianic Judaism to the Rabbinic Jewish community. And since Messianic Judaism is an outreach, bear in mind how you represent Messianic Judaism as you use the name of an movement started by Jewish believers whose goal is to reach the Jewish community with the news of Jesus.

With all due respect, I'd like to share a few thoughts...

You make a valid point about outreach into the Jewish community. Certainly, it is possible that some Jews may be turned off by the participation of observant Gentiles; however dissension, strife, anger etc. within the forum would be a much bigger turn off. A turn off not only for Jews, but Gentiles who come here to explore; it's also a turn off for a substantial portion of the current membership of this forum... which is the point of the thread.

One can not hope to win converts, if they see that they will be singled out, criticized, and admonished with little or no mercy; nor is such a good environment for learning and exploration.

 

[GuardianShua]

I just wanted to point out that under the Mosaic laws, the priesthood was allowed to make additional laws. Yahshua and the disciples taught and kept the commands of God; but they also spoke against the laws of the priesthood. We are still under the laws of God, what has changed is the priesthood. The Old Covenant was the circumcision covenant, and we are now under a New Covenant.