SSPX: I guess ecumenical councils are no longer infallible

[mea kulpa]

Isreal as in the nation or isreal as in the promised land?

 

[mea kulpa]

spoken like a true anti-Vat 2 traditionalist.

The Church is the NEW Israel, not Israel. New Israel doesn't supplant Israel anymore than New York supplants York.

Thank you for the compliment...

And what of the old isreal... a mere strech of land the spoils of war gifted to the jews by the gentiles or do you prefer the goyim

 

[Meowzltov]

Isreal as in the nation or isreal as in the promised land?

Israel as in the People. I, here in Southern California, am a child of Israel. Moshe, in the Ukraine, is a child of Israel. Rachel, in Tel Aviv, is a child of Israel. I know it's a little difficult for folks not used to thinking in terms of tribes.

 

[Meowzltov]

Thank you for the compliment...

And what of the old isreal... a mere strech of land the spoils of war gifted to the jews by the gentiles or do you prefer the goyim

Original Israel: the People beloved by God for the sake of the Patriarchs.

Gentiles or Goyim? Depends on whether I feel like Latin/Middle English or Hebrew. They mean the exact same thing. I think the Greek word is Ethnos but I could be wrong.

Are you talking about modern Israel? The state that Jews had to fight a war for? Can we please leave that for the Politics section? Thanks.

So may I ask you a couple of questions, since you are the representative traditionalist in the room....
1. Do you believe all Jews are cursed?
2. Do you believe Jews are Christ killers?

Not that everything is bad about Traditionalism. I don't approve of rejecting Vatican 2. But you'd be surprised how traditional I am in some ways. I adore the Latin Mass. A lot of the things done in "the Spirit of Vatican 2" have been just monstrous.

 

[mea kulpa]

Original Israel: the People beloved by God for the sake of the Patriarchs.

Gentiles or Goyim? Depends on whether I feel like Latin/Middle English or Hebrew. They mean the exact same thing. I think the Greek word is Ethnos but I could be wrong.

Are you talking about modern Israel? The state that Jews had to fight a war for? Can we please leave that for the Politics section? Thanks.

So may I ask you a couple of questions, since you are the representative traditionalist in the room....
1. Do you believe all Jews are cursed?
2. Do you believe Jews are Christ killers?

Not that everything is bad about Traditionalism. I don't approve of rejecting Vatican 2. But you'd be surprised how traditional I am in some ways. I adore the Latin Mass. A lot of the things done in "the Spirit of Vatican 2" have been just monstrous.

1. No
2. Yes/no

The jewish leaders had the christ put to death... this was Gods plan. The blood of the lamb was poured out upon the jews. "Let his blood be upon us and on our children" jesus poured out his blood for the forgiveness of sins... that is not a curse its a blessing but if you reject the blessing....

I dont hate the jews... i love them, my lord was a jew. I just want them to accept jesus.

 

[Meowzltov]

1. No
2. Yes/no

The jewish leaders had the christ put to death... this was Gods plan. The blood of the lamb was poured out upon the jews. "Let his blood be upon us and on our children" jesus poured out his blood for the forgiveness of sins... that is not a curse its a blessing but if you reject the blessing....

I dont hate the jews... i love them, my lord was a jew. I just want them to accept jesus.

That's very good to know.

 

[benedictaoo]

I remember very clearly that Pope St John Paul II taught a two covenant model. He gave a speech where he said the Jews were a people of the Old Covenant THAT WASNT REVOKED.

Yeah, it's been fulfilled, completed. What do you think this means?

 

[benedictaoo]

There was a reason he was forbidden to consecrate bishops.

IIRC, which I probably don't, but I want to say they told him to chill until they could work out the problems and he didn't chill and consecrated those bishops. 4 of them, I think.

 

[benedictaoo]

spoken like a true anti-Vat 2 traditionalist.

The Church is the NEW Israel, not Israel. New Israel doesn't supplant Israel anymore than New York supplants York.

That's really wrong Open Heart. This is Church teaching.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There are many in SSPX believe that Jews are cursed and are Christ killers, in violation of Nostra Aetate, for example. As a Jew, I've had my run ins with traditional Catholics who violate this teaching. Bishop Bernard Fellay, SSPX’s superior general, calls the Jews "the enemies of the Church." And how can we ever forget the Bishop Williamson was a notorious holocaust denier? SSPX became a haven for antisemites after Vatican II.

In fairness Williamson was such a loose canon that even the SSPX found him hard to tolerate. They kicked him out but it took them until 2012 to do so.

 

[benedictaoo]

That's very kind of you to say, Thank you.

I feel special because God loves me and sent Christ to die for me, and forgave me when I didn't deserve it.

Being a Jew is, well, just kind of there. It's like having a different job. I'm not better or worse, just different. As a Hebrew Catholic, I do appreciate my Jewish identity, keeping laws and traditions out of love. How fortunate I am to live in these times, when it is okay for a Hebrew Catholic to do so without my devotion to Christ and his Church being called into question.

You're special because the grace God has given that you opened to receive. I know as a Jews that's not so easy. God has Mercy on who He will. He showen you mercy. This is what I mean. This is the salvation of the Jews. You are it. You live it.

 

[benedictaoo]

I was Orthodox for many years, then I left Orthodoxy and attended a Reform Temple which I hated but it was the only one in town. BUT RIGHT NOW I am CATHOLIC. Why?

Because God has shown mercy to you.

 

[benedictaoo]

Israel as in the People. I, here in Southern California, am a child of Israel. Moshe, in the Ukraine, is a child of Israel. Rachel, in Tel Aviv, is a child of Israel. I know it's a little difficult for folks not used to thinking in terms of tribes.

And you Israel has been saved.

 

[Rhamiel]

That is true at first. He ordained four Bishops after being prohibited from doing so directly. At that point all ordinations are conducted while facilities are suspended A Divinis. They are valid but illicit. All priestly functions after the Ordination of the four Bishops are illicit.

Now that does not count for confessions by the SSPX this year because of the Mercy shown by the Pope. But all other functions are suspended. That was confirmed by B16. So things they do are valid but illicit. And after he ordained the bishops all ordinations are acts of defiance against the Holy see.

There are mechanisms to resolve this. And, as I said in the other thread...we will have to see what the Pope does. I can not think he will say just ignore Vatican II. I am sure the language will be one of reconciliation while dialog continues.

but how is this different from the Eastern Orthodox?
or do we not accept confession in the Eastern Orthodox Church?
I am confused

I believe SSPX have valid Baptism and Eucharist as well. And I read that we can attend SSPX mass if it is done out of love for the TLM and not out of a desire to not be united with Rome.

we COULD
but I do not think it would be a good idea, it may be a cause of scandal or a near occasion of sin (at the very least fostering doubts)

 

[Meowzltov]

Because God has shown mercy to you.

Amen.

 

[Meowzltov]

In fairness Williamson was such a loose canon that even the SSPX found him hard to tolerate. They kicked him out but it took them until 2012 to do so.

And to be REALLY fair, there are nuts in EVERY group. It's just some nuts are dangerous. And I have no choice except to take this stuff personally.

 

[Meowzltov]

Yeah, it's been fulfilled, completed. What do you think this means?

"Fulfill the Law" is a second temple expression that means a rabbi is teaching what will enable him and his disciples to fully keep the law.

 

[benedictaoo]

but how is this different from the Eastern Orthodox?
or do we not accept confession in the Eastern Orthodox Church?
I am confused

Because EO are legitimate bishoprics. They belong there. Their patriarchs are the successors to what ever apostle. Their churches belong to that jurisdiction. Their bishop, is their patriarch and they are under him. He is not in union with the pope. They are in schism. They are both valid and licit. SSPX belongs to our bishopric, the bishop of Rome. Peter's jurisdiction. The pope is also bishop of Rome, our patriarch and we are under him. So a bishop under our patriarch, who just so happens to be the pope, can not go off and do his own thing. He is under obedience to his patriarch who so happens to be the pope. All these patriarchs are all supposed to be under the pope. The pope is the bishop of Rome, Rome is a bishopric, an apostolic office. and the pope is also the pope. The apostle who head up all the other apostles. The EO and other Orthodox disagree on what the head bishop's (pope) role really is to all the other the patriarchs. So that is why they are both valid and licit. They can operate. They have every right to.

 

[benedictaoo]

"Fulfill the Law" is a second temple expression that means a rabbi is teaching what will enable him and his disciples to fully keep the law.

The covenant has not been revoked. It has been fulfilled. Christ fulfilled it. He said He has not come to abolish but to fulfill. He is the covenant God made with Israel. Israel is here. It's us, we are God's people. We are true Jews. The covenant is new and everlasting. You, as a Jew are what it means to be grafted in. There will not be any event where God is going to save the Jews. God saved the Jews already and that salvation is the covenant He made with Israel. He has not forgotten it. You are proof of that. He saved you! That covenant which is our salvation will not be revoked. That means God will save Jews. It means Jews will convert, but not all. He has not hardened all Jews hearts. He not made all Jews stiff necked. He has mercy on who He wills and hardens who He wills. Let's not forget this is a mystery to us. But you, he has showed you mercy.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The Jews that will be saved will be saved by Jesus. I believe that Jesus will make himself known to them sooner or later. But they won't be saved if they know that Jesus is the Messiah and still reject him anyway. Just like how there are Catholics in name alone, there are people who are Jewish in name alone. And the children of some liberal Jews aren't really Jewish since the liberal Jews have broken away from both the ancient Jewish faith and the genetic requirement for being Jewish.