Rome and ACNA full communion?

[chevyontheriver]

Thanks for your input everyone, it seems like it is more of a wishful hope than reality, which is kind of what I thought. Really any ACNA parish or dioceses that wanted to go in union with Rome could just join the Ordinate, as some have done in the past.

Well, we can hope.

They are talking at least. The significant change is the Ratzingerian position that we can’t expect more than what existed in the first millennium.

That and the realization that if we don’t hang together we will be hanged separately.

 

[tampasteve]

They are talking at least. The significant change is the Ratzingerian position that we can’t expect more than what existed in the first millennium.

I sincerely hope so, it would be great to get back to that agreement. Does the current Pope lean in that direction or is he more dictatorial and unbending in compromising?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I sincerely hope so, it would be great to get back to that agreement. Does the current Pope lean in that direction or is he more dictatorial and unbending in compromising?

The current pope is inconsistent. He is a promoter of 'synodality' but that seems to differ quite a bit from the way synodality is practiced by the Orthodox. And synodality isn't working all that well for the Orthodox right now. Francis' synodality looks more like Anglican synodality, the driver for the collapse of the Anglican communion. He has been called 'the dictator pope' for many reasons, including the cancellation of multiple bishops for no canonical reason. He is considered by many to function as a Peronist, with no particular ideology other than to hold power closely. Liturgically he wants badly to obliterate the old Latin mass that has become increasingly popular since popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI both allowed for it's freer use. The TLM draws lots of young people, people who learn their faith and practice it and follow the teachings. He isn't anti-ecumenical, but I don't get the sense that he's all that committed, even while he meets with Welby and whoever. A mixed bag.

The ANCA probably needs to figure out who they really are. It seems they are a conglomeration of all sorts of Anglicanism that could't quite go along with the TEC Episcopalians. Some very Catholic elements, some evangelical elements, some frankly liberal elements mixed in too such as those supporting women priests. I can't see all of those happily wanting to join forces with the Catholic Church. The ANCA have some thinking to do on who they really are.

They should by all means keep talking with Catholics. But this isn't ready for prime time. I hope it will be.

 

[AlexB23]

Thanks for your input everyone, it seems like it is more of a wishful hope than reality, which is kind of what I thought. Really any ACNA parish or dioceses that wanted to go in union with Rome could just join the Ordinate, as some have done in the past.

You are welcome, brother.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Papal primacy, purgatory, the immaculate conception, the filioque, among others are several doctrines that keep us separated.

I have tried to study Eastern Orthodox teaching, and these may seem simple, but they are huge impediments to union
In my studies, the EO do not accept the doctrine of original sin, so their argument is there was no need for an immaculate conception. I find that thinking very problematic.

As Catholics we profess that baptism washes away original sin as it bestows grace.

Mary is full of grace, so she was conceived without original sin. Genesis 3:15 prophesied that she would be the enemy of Satan. If she was a sinner, she would be a slave to sin and not its enemy. The EO agree that Mary was sinless, but not immaculate.
Then we have John the Baptist, whom Our Lord said there was no greater man ever born. There was Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jacob. Our Lord puts John the Baptist above them, why?

Well if we accept the doctrine of original sin and baptism, we see that the other men were born in sin. John the Baptist was conceived in sin, yet received the sacrament of baptism while still in the womb, so he was born without original sin. Adam did not have original sin, but he was not born of a woman.

How do we know John the Baptist was baptized in the womb? Because he leaped for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice in the ears of his mother. When Adam sinned, he hid himself from God as he carried the shame of sin. John the Baptist leaped for joy. He was cleansed from original sin by the Holy Spirit who makes all baptisms effective.

That also is a teaching on infant baptism, but that is another matter. Simply put, if there is disagreement on original sin, that teaching makes no sense, and it makes it very unlikely that there would be unification of EO and Catholic without agreement on original sin.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I am going to be cross posting this in both the Anglican and RCC forums for input from both groups. Can anyone comment on the potential full communion and recognition of ACNA Holy Orders? I came across this article and it is compelling to believe that we may be on the cusp of full communion between Rome and the ACNA. But how would that actually play out?

I think what would most likely happen is all members of the ACNA, both clergy and laymen, would be brought into the Church through the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter (Anglican Ordinariate), they would then be fully Catholic in full communion with the Pope and they would also have the benefit of retaining their English patrimony (though they're not obligated to do this if, on an individual basis, they perhaps prefer the more general Latin Rite).

That's just the procedure though. I've never heard a whisper about either side in any kind of dialogue, let alone serious discussions about entering in communion together.

I could be biased because we have a local parish from this denomination here, but if I had guess the APCK might make more sense as a candidate to enter communion because they're smaller and thus possibly less stable and their liturgical practices are more Catholic than maybe even other continuing Anglican communities.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think what would most likely happen is all members of the ACNA, both clergy and laymen, would be brought into the Church through the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter (Anglican Ordinariate), they would then be fully Catholic in full communion with the Pope and they would also have the benefit of retaining their English patrimony (though they're not obligated to do this if, on an individual basis, they perhaps prefer the more general Latin Rite).

That's just the procedure though. I've never heard a whisper about either side in any kind of dialogue, let alone serious discussions about entering in communion together.

I could be biased because we have a local parish from this denomination here, but if I had guess the APCK might make more sense as a candidate to enter communion because they're smaller and thus possibly less stable and their liturgical practices are more Catholic than maybe even other continuing Anglican communities.

I suspect that some in the ANCA just cannot make the journey into communion with the Catholic Church no matter what form it might take. Those supporting women's ordination for example, or those more on the evangelical side of things. For the rest of them the Ordinariate is ready for them, and is agile enough to fit them. The ANCA needs to figure out which path it is on as a whole, or as it's various parts.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I suspect that some in the ANCA just cannot make the journey into communion with the Catholic Church no matter what form it might take. Those supporting women's ordination for example, or those more on the evangelical side of things. For the rest of them the Ordinariate is ready for them, and is agile enough to fit them. The ANCA needs to figure out which path it is on as a whole, or as it's various parts.

That's kind of why I thought one of the smaller breakaway groups like the APCK might be more likely since it's more likely to be homogenous with fewer members.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's kind of why I thought one of the smaller breakaway groups like the APCK might be more likely since it's more likely to be homogenous with fewer members.

I had to look up APCK. I get it that Anglicans have to leave the Episcopal Church (TEC) but couldn't they do it in a less chaotic way, all fragmented and disagreeable to each other?

That's what it is going to look like in Catholic-land if pope Francis can't find his Catholicism again.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I had to look up APCK. I get it that Anglicans have to leave the Episcopal Church (TEC) but couldn't they do it in a less chaotic way, all fragmented and disagreeable to each other?

That's what it is going to look like in Catholic-land if pope Francis can't find his Catholicism again.

Such is the protestant way at the end of the day, I suppose.

We actually have an APCK parish here that I attended a few times before parachuting into RCIA. I even had some conversations with the priest afterwards who said they're essentially Western Rite Orthodox, which I characterize as only a couple inches away from the Ordinariate in many ways.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Such is the protestant way at the end of the day, I suppose.

We actually have an APCK parish here that I attended a few times before parachuting into RCIA. I even had some conversations with the priest afterwards who said they're essentially Western Rite Orthodox, which I characterize as only a couple inches away from the Ordinariate in many ways.

Those last few inches could be inches or miles. Depending.

I am very impressed with the Ordinariates in terms of their stability. They have weathered some challenges pretty well. They have some really good people too. One of them is Msgr Steenson, who was ordinary before bishop Lopes was appointed. He's a stabilizer.