SSPX: I guess ecumenical councils are no longer infallible

[Meowzltov]

The Jews that will be saved will be saved by Jesus. I believe that Jesus will make himself known to them sooner or later. But they won't be saved if they know that Jesus is the Messiah and still reject him anyway. Just like how there are Catholics in name alone, there are people who are Jewish in name alone. And the children of some liberal Jews aren't really Jewish since the liberal Jews have broken away from both the ancient Jewish faith and the genetic requirement for being Jewish.

The problem is, they DON"T know that Jesus is the Messiah, even if you tell them so. They have a certain idea what the messiah is to be, based on their own understanding of Scripture, and Jesus doesn't cut it. Why? Because God himself has placed a veil over their eyes that the gentiles may come in. They are not responsible for their own blindness.

 

[benedictaoo]

Maybe this will better explain it better. Jesus, which is the covenant God made with the Jews, He will not take that away from the Jews. Jesus will always be there for individual Jews to accept be saved. What it does not mean is that God is going to save the Jewish religion itself. Save all Jews everywhere. It does not mean Him, that Israel is going to join the Church. I means that God will save individual Jews. It means the Jesus is also for Jewish people as well as everyone else. JPll just wanted us to respect Jews and respect our ancestry. Respect the fact that Jesus is their salvation even though they rejected Him and still do, He will always be for them to be saved through.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The problem is, they DON"T know that Jesus is the Messiah, even if you tell them so. They have a certain idea what the messiah is to be, based on their own understanding of Scripture, and Jesus doesn't cut it. Why? Because God himself has placed a veil over their eyes that the gentiles may come in. They are not responsible for their own blindness.

If they don't know it now in this life, I believe that Jesus will let them know it when they die. But it would still be up to them whether or not they accept him, and I think some probably won't.

 

[Meowzltov]

It means Jews will convert, but not all.

I'm sorry, but I cannot reconcile this with "All Israel will be saved."

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I'm sorry, but I cannot reconcile this with "All Israel will be saved."

It's like saying the Church will be saved. But that doesn't include those who cut themselves off from the Church.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Maybe this will better explain it better. Jesus, which is the covenant God made with the Jews, He will not take that away from the Jews. Jesus will always be there for individual Jews to accept be saved. What it does not mean is that God is going to save the Jewish religion itself. Save all Jews everywhere. It does not mean Him, that Israel is going to join the Church. I means that God will save individual Jews. It means the Jesus is also for Jewish people as well as everyone else. JPll just wanted us to respect Jews and respect our ancestry. Respect the fact that Jesus is their salvation even though they rejected Him and still do, He will always be for them to be saved through.

It's worth noting that Christianity began within Judaism, that the apostles saw it as a natural fulfillment of Judaism, and that it took a while for the early Christians to understand that Christianity was open to the gentiles as well (with one of the early controversies of the Church being whether a gentile must first adopt the Jewish laws and practices in order to be a Christian). The idea that Judaism was a separate way to Christianity would have been completely foreign to them.

 

[Meowzltov]

If they don't know it now in this life, I believe that Jesus will probably let them know it when they die. But it would still be up to them whether or not they accept him, and I think some probably won't.

I can't imagine them, in the next life, when the messiahship of Christ is reveal, them not falling down and worshiping him, much like Emeth the Calormen soldier in the Last Battle fell down and worshiped Aslan.

 

[Meowzltov]

It's like saying the Church will be saved. But that doesn't include those who cut themselves off from the Church.

In that verse, Paul is not talking about the Church. He is talking about Jews. Context.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

In that verse, Paul is not talking about the Church. He is talking about Jews. Context.

I know, but I was making a point about how the two can be compared since "Israel" was a prototype for the Church.

 

[benedictaoo]

I'm sorry, but I cannot reconcile this with "All Israel will be saved."

It's like Jesus saying He died for all. He did but we know not all will be saved.

 

[benedictaoo]

I can't imagine them, in the next life, when the messiahship of Christ is reveal, them not falling down and worshiping him, much like Emeth the Calormen soldier in the Last Battle fell down and worshiped Aslan.

the next life?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I can't imagine them, in the next life, when the messiahship of Christ is reveal, them not falling down and worshiping him, much like Emeth the Calormen soldier in the Last Battle fell down and worshiped Aslan.

If they worship at the altar of abortion and SS'M' they will probably hate Jesus after death since Jesus is against those things.

 

[benedictaoo]

The Jews that will be saved will be saved by Jesus. I believe that Jesus will make himself known to them sooner or later.

I disagree. He already did. He came to His own and His own knew Him not. He already revealed Himself to them just as He revealed Himself to us all but it's who God choose to show mercy to who will accept. He gave Jesus to the world and the Church is supposed to preach this good news. Jews were supposed to do it but they did not want the gig. They rejected Him and to this day they remain in that sin. They remain blind. Now will God at the end of it all lift this veil from them so they can repent and accept? We don't know.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I disagree. He already did. He came to His own and His own knew Him not. He already revealed Himself to them just as He revealed Himself to us all but it's who God choose to show mercy to who will accept. He gave Jesus to the world and the Church is supposed to preach this good news. Jews were supposed to do it but they did not want the gig. They rejected Him and to this day they remain in that sin. They remain blind. Now will God at the end of it all lift this veil from them so they can repent and accept? We don't know.

The only reason that we can say with any accuracy that "the Jews" rejected Jesus is that modern forms of Judaism were historically defined by rejecting Jesus. But in fact many Jews at the time of Jesus embraced his message. They thus became Christians, but they were also Jews, and there were a not insignificant number of them.

And it is also not quite right to say that the Jews of today rejected Jesus after having seen Him. The communities that they practice their faith in did historically, but the actual Jews in those communities are not. We should no longer say 'the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge." The children can make their own acceptance or rejection of Jesus. If many of their community accepted Him when he came to Earth, it stands to reason that many of today's Jews will accept Him should they directly encounter Him.

 

[benedictaoo]

The only reason that we can say with any accuracy that "the Jews" rejected Jesus is that modern forms of Judaism were historically defined by rejecting Jesus. But in fact many Jews at the time of Jesus embraced his message. They thus became Christians, but they were also Jews, and there were a not insignificant number of them.

And it is also not quite right to say that the Jews of today rejected Jesus after having seen Him. The communities that they practice their faith in did historically, but the actual Jews in those communities are not. We should no longer say 'the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge." The children can make their own acceptance or rejection of Jesus. If many of their community accepted Him when he came to Earth, it stands to reason that many of today's Jews will accept Him should they directly encounter Him.

At His return... We can only hope.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I disagree. He already did. He came to His own and His own knew Him not. He already revealed Himself to them just as He revealed Himself to us all but it's who God choose to show mercy to who will accept. He gave Jesus to the world and the Church is supposed to preach this good news. Jews were supposed to do it but they did not want the gig. They rejected Him and to this day they remain in that sin. They remain blind. Now will God at the end of it all lift this veil from them so they can repent and accept? We don't know.

It's not the same as the Jews who witnessed Jesus and his miracles firsthand but still rejected him. It's like the difference between a Martin Luther era Protestant vs one who was taught from day one of their life to believe that the Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon. When they have that coloring their perception of Catholics it makes it harder for them to accept that the Catholic Church is the true Church. So when a Jew is taught from birth that Jesus is not the Messiah, it's an obstacle to them finding out the truth that Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[dzheremi]

I know, but I was making a point about how the two can be compared since "Israel" was a prototype for the Church.

Indeed. The same St. Paul calls the Church "the Israel of God" in his epistle to the Galatians (6:16).

It is only in recent times that people of a different viewpoint have criticized the historical view that has been held by all churches before the modern era, calling it "supersessionism" or "replacement theology" (in fact, if you believe the wikipedia article on it, the rejection of this ecclesiological and theological view is a reaction the Holocaust, which -- while tragic and unacceptable in every way -- might as well have been considered as having happened yesterday, given how short a time has passed since the 1930s/1940s and today compared to the time passed from the beginning of the Church in the first century to the beginning of the holocaust in the last century). For the vast majority of the Church's life, up to and including today and into the future, it was and is simply instead orthodox (and Orthodox ) theology and ecclesiology.

I would say that it is up to those who dissent from it to show how their view is somehow in keeping with the mainstream of Christian history on this subject, but I know that for anyone who would continue to view the Jews as the people of God (over and against men like St. Paul, who was himself a Jew and yet still wrote about how the Church is Israel), it is a matter of eisegesis, not exegesis, and hence a pointless request that would only lead to frustration and even more arguing over a matter that is for everyone else (read: basically all other Christians, other than a minority of modern sects) definitively settled, and has been basically since the beginning of our faith.

 

[benedictaoo]

It's not the same as the Jews who witnessed Jesus and his miracles firsthand but still rejected him. It's like the difference between a Martin Luther era Protestant vs one who was taught from day one of their life to believe that the Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon. When they have that coloring their perception of Catholics, it makes it harder for them to accept that the Catholic Church is the true Church.

Then all, Jews, Muslims, other religions and non Catholic Christians will have the same awakening then. The question is will Jews have a special awakening that others won't have? Now is the time of grace. When He returns He comes as Judge. Will there be a period right before where He will afford us an opportunity to see Him and repent? It is the year of Mercy... I just think Jews are not excluded because of their sin of rejection. I think they have the same means we all have. I think they will be given the same grace we all will be given and will there be a universal out pouring? Are we in it now? Maybe. But if we aren't, God will continue to show mercy to who He wants and harden who He wants for what ever His reasons.

 

[chevyontheriver]

And to be REALLY fair, there are nuts in EVERY group. It's just some nuts are dangerous. And I have no choice except to take this stuff personally.

Williamson persisted in his whacko stuff, even refusing to shut up when Fellay asked him to. I wonder if he 'just toned it down a little bit' would that have been acceptable? In other words, was he really fringe within SSPX or just too vocal? I HOPE he was fringe even for them. Being kicked out seems to indicate that.

Williamson, for a while, was head of a SSPX seminary in the same town my daughter was going to college. So I kind of kept up with his antics. It was terrible. Fellay SEEMS far more rational.