Spurgeon Preached Old Earth Creationism

[AV1611VET]

Bonus question: Explain why you trust a book that says a grasshopper has 4 legs, when you can easily count there are more.

Here's a bonus question for you: Does a flying squirrel fly?

 

[doubtingmerle]

How more is "more than that"?

Shouldn't you be able to count several million?

Sloppy exegesis on science's part, in their usual attempt to show the Bible to be in error.

Leviticus 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

The Bible describes this insect as creeping with four legs and two more legs above their other four to leap.

Sorry, this guy is. Walking on all sixes.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sorry, this guy is. Walking on all sixes.

Wow -- just wow.

Let's try this again.

Locust -- six legs -- four to walk with -- two to leap with.

mamma mia

 

[inquiring mind]

What? Are we meant to be taking your posts seriously?

I don’t care.

It's not a question. There is no question. It's not questionable.

Ice floats.

I agree. I didn't ask if ice floats.

Glaciers are made of ice, so they would float.

Glaciers are made of ice, snow, rock, sediment, and even water, and originate on land. Glaciers are land ice. Land ice doesn’t usually get the chance to float, but any part that does get the opportunity is referred to as an iceberg or ice shelf.

Icebergs are made of ice so they float.

That’s what I said (post # 113)

The whole of the ice sheet in the arctic is made of ice (the clue is in the name) so it floats as well.

The operative word here is ‘ice sheet’ or maybe ‘sea ice,’ not glacier. They may be fed by northern region glaciers though.

 

[inquiring mind]

I fear we may need to explain science 101

From your comments, you sound like you may be a science teacher... have at it.

 

[inquiring mind]

You can keep going back to ever more basic aspects of science in an attempt to explain something, but you get to a point when it becomes obvious that it's a fool's errand. When you have to try to explain that ice floats and you get push back...It's probably a good time to reassess the effort being put in.

You need to get a better handle on the terminology first.

 

[inquiring mind]

Maybe if you read a bit on ice cores. I did mention
an electronic means and visual means of counting
layers, carbon 14 dating and testing against such
as dates of known volcanic events.
They aren't out there making silly guesses.

They make silly mistakes sometimes.

 

[inquiring mind]

Many will not even concede something
as obvious as that ice floats out of
( quite realistic) fear that to be wrong/
the awful atheist be right,on the tiniest
point it will be like a pinprick in a balloon.

Well, you're going to have to be able to distinguish between an iceberg and a glacier before I consider conceding anything.

 

[doubtingmerle]

That is correct.

Because I believe the earth was created with age embedded into it.

Thus, if science says the earth is 90 million years old, that's no problem for embedded agers.

As long as science doesn't say the earth GREW to be 90 million years old.

As far as I know, the only thing I have in common with YEC is that we both believe the earth has been in existence for some six thousand years.

It looks old because it was created old.

Don't confuse embedded age with apparent age.

That is Omphalos.

No.

I don't believe Adam had a navel, which is where Omphalos gets its name.

No navel, no scars, no physical evidence of passage of time.

Nope.

They weren't there from Day One though.

From various cataclysms in the Old Testament.

I always had you pegged as an Omphalos guy, that you thought God created the world with all those rock layers down there that looked old. Now you tell us the fossils and rocks came from cataclysms in the Old Testament. I now take it that you think most of the fossils came from the flood, with a few like Korah thrown in there also (quite literally!).

But, as we have explained here, the flood could not have caused the fossil record.

You say the earth has an embedded age. What does that even mean?

Most of the rocks that practicing geologists are concerned about date within the last 600 million years. These rocks are all in layers intermixed with fossil bearing rocks, which you attribute to Old Testament catastrophies. They were not there on day one. So you cannot say those rocks were made with an embedded age, unless somehow God "embedded" an age in each formation as the flood formed them. During the flood, was God tinkering with the age of every formation as it formed, just so happening to set the date to match the Geologic Column and evolutionary theory? That sounds deceptive.

You believe the earth and animals were created, and that this happened in 4004 BC. That certainly sounds like Young Earth Creationism. Can you explain why you object to be identified as such?

 

[doubtingmerle]

How more is "more than that"?

Shouldn't you be able to count several million?

Good questions.

We are able to count about 50,000 annual layers in ice cores. Below that they tend to get smashed together.

The earth was not always cold enough to support ice caps at the poles. The ice at the South Pole was there about 34 million years. At the North Pole, it was there for about 3 million years. See The history of ice on Earth.

For more on ice cores see Core questions: An introduction to ice cores – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet '

 

[Astrid]

Well, you're going to have to be able to distinguish between an iceberg and a glacier before I consider conceding anything.

An iceberg is free floating. A glacier is on
land though it may form an ice
shelf attached to the rest of the glacier.

Icebergs my originate as part of a glacier or
they may be sea ice.

 

[Frank Robert]

I fear we may need to explain science 101

It won't do any good, they have their own Science 101-C.

Roy Zimmerman - Creation Science 101​

 

[Astrid]

I don’t care.

I agree. I didn't ask if ice floats.

Glaciers are made of ice, snow, rock, sediment, and even water, and originate on land. Glaciers are land ice. Land ice doesn’t usually get the chance to float, but any part that does get the opportunity is referred to as an iceberg or ice shelf.

That’s what I said (post # 113)

The operative word here is ‘ice sheet’ or maybe ‘sea ice,’ not glacier. They may be fed by northern region glaciers though.

So if it clear to you that glacier / ice cap
or ice by any other name will float
then surely you conced that they would
float in a world wide flood.

One odd character to whom I pointed
this out first held that the ice is "stuck
down" and cannot float.

Finally he gave that up but said the
ice floated but neither drifted away nor
broke up held in place by circumpolar
current. Then it settled back in place.

Exactly in place, fitti into the valleys,
mountains and outline of antarctica?

Then he went to how "dust" at the 6000
year level proved the flood.

 

[inquiring mind]

So if it clear to you that glacier / ice cap
or ice by any other name will float
then surely you conced that they would
float in a world wide flood.

I was headed in the direction that the land ice would stay in place during the Flood, but I have already conceded... to AV's comments in post #105. I did so in post #111.

 

[inquiring mind]

Good questions.

We are able to count about 50,000 annual layers in ice cores. Below that they tend to get smashed together.

The earth was not always cold enough to support ice caps at the poles. The ice at the South Pole was there about 34 million years. At the North Pole, it was there for about 3 million years. See The history of ice on Earth.

For more on ice cores see Core questions: An introduction to ice cores – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet '

"Each layer of ice tells a story about what Earth was like when that layer of snow fell."

Yep



"The icy layers also hold particles—aerosols such as dust, ash, pollen, trace elements and sea salts—that were in the atmosphere at that time. These particles remain in the ice thousands of years later, providing physical evidence of past global events, such as major volcanic eruptions."

Or less



"Additionally, as the ice compacts over time, tiny bubbles of the atmosphere—including greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane—press inside the ice. These air pocket “fossils” provide samples of what the atmosphere was like when that layer of ice formed, LeGrande said. “Scientists can directly measure the amount of greenhouse gases that were in the atmosphere at that time by sampling these bubbles,”

Whether the layers were 4 hours apart or 100 years apart.



"Scientists also use ice core temperature data to validate climate models that predict Earth’s future climate."

BS



"They also have to add in any variables that may alter the climate system at different points in time"

I bet they do.



"The oldest ice cores, from East Antarctica, provide an 800,000-year-old record of Earth’s climate. How do we know they’re that old? Each season’s snowfall has slightly different properties than the last. These differences create annual layers in the ice that can be used to count the age of the ice, just like rings inside a tree."

Once again, this thinking reflects that of a very slow gradual build-up of everything in the layer, never considering the possibility that the layers of ice were also laid down quickly with a smorgasbord of snow contents belched up from a world being torn apart, and that could or could not be related to the time frame in which it was occurring. For scientists, it has to be a slow orderly process because that’s all they can understand, and have to keep that model throughout for TOE.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

"Each layer of ice tells a story about what Earth was like when that layer of snow fell."

Yep



"The icy layers also hold particles—aerosols such as dust, ash, pollen, trace elements and sea salts—that were in the atmosphere at that time. These particles remain in the ice thousands of years later, providing physical evidence of past global events, such as major volcanic eruptions."

Or less



"Additionally, as the ice compacts over time, tiny bubbles of the atmosphere—including greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane—press inside the ice. These air pocket “fossils” provide samples of what the atmosphere was like when that layer of ice formed, LeGrande said. “Scientists can directly measure the amount of greenhouse gases that were in the atmosphere at that time by sampling these bubbles,”

Whether the layers were 4 hours apart or 100 years apart.



"Scientists also use ice core temperature data to validate climate models that predict Earth’s future climate."

BS



"They also have to add in any variables that may alter the climate system at different points in time"

I bet they do.



"The oldest ice cores, from East Antarctica, provide an 800,000-year-old record of Earth’s climate. How do we know they’re that old? Each season’s snowfall has slightly different properties than the last. These differences create annual layers in the ice that can be used to count the age of the ice, just like rings inside a tree."

Once again, this thinking reflects that of a very slow gradual build-up of everything in the layer, never considering the possibility that the layers of ice were also laid down quickly with a smorgasbord of snow contents belched up from a world being torn apart, and that could or could not be related to the time frame in which it was occurring. For scientists, it has to be a slow orderly process because that’s all they can understand, and have to keep that model throughout for TOE.

Imagine the energy required to tear the world apart and belch up so much water. Now imagine the heat that would generate. Now explain how it all froze in a matter of hours, then didn't melt as the next wave of boiling gases and water swept over it.

Those straws you're clutching onto are burning.

 

[Astrid]

I was headed in the direction that the land ice would stay in place during the Flood, but I have already conceded... to AV's comments in post #105. I did so in post #111.

I don't see his posts.

So since the ice would float off,
are you going to say the fine
structure in the lamination was
somehow made in a matter of
days?

"Each layer of ice tells a story about what Earth was like when that layer of snow fell."

Yep



"The icy layers also hold particles—aerosols such as dust, ash, pollen, trace elements and sea salts—that were in the atmosphere at that time. These particles remain in the ice thousands of years later, providing physical evidence of past global events, such as major volcanic eruptions."

Or less



"Additionally, as the ice compacts over time, tiny bubbles of the atmosphere—including greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane—press inside the ice. These air pocket “fossils” provide samples of what the atmosphere was like when that layer of ice formed, LeGrande said. “Scientists can directly measure the amount of greenhouse gases that were in the atmosphere at that time by sampling these bubbles,”

Whether the layers were 4 hours apart or 100 years apart.



"Scientists also use ice core temperature data to validate climate models that predict Earth’s future climate."

BS



"They also have to add in any variables that may alter the climate system at different points in time"

I bet they do.



"The oldest ice cores, from East Antarctica, provide an 800,000-year-old record of Earth’s climate. How do we know they’re that old? Each season’s snowfall has slightly different properties than the last. These differences create annual layers in the ice that can be used to count the age of the ice, just like rings inside a tree."

Once again, this thinking reflects that of a very slow gradual build-up of everything in the layer, never considering the possibility that the layers of ice were also laid down quickly with a smorgasbord of snow contents belched up from a world being torn apart, and that could or could not be related to the time frame in which it was occurring. For scientists, it has to be a slow orderly process because that’s all they can understand, and have to keep that model throughout for TOE.

" for scientists it has to be" is twaddle.
In additin to saying they are dishonest to the
core.

And behave in that anti science way to fight against
one ecceentric way of reading one " holy"
book. As if that's possible, or even sane.

All evidence shows slow annual accumulation.
Like the count back to vesuvias I mentioned

A conspiracy to involve Chinese tussian German
Japanese American Canadian Danish etc to
all falsify their work not actually reasonable
or even possible.

Resort to making up such claims should be
a Clue for you.

Of total BS.

ETA, anyone who could disprove ToE would be
hailed amo g the greatest discoverers in
history.

Quite a conspiracy to keep even one person
from spilling the beans.

 

[inquiring mind]

Imagine the energy required to tear the world apart and belch up so much water. Now imagine the heat that would generate. Now explain how it all froze in a matter of hours, then didn't melt as the next wave of boiling gases and water swept over it.

Those straws you're clutching onto are burning.

I don't see his posts.

So since the ice would float off,
are you going to say the fine
structure in the lamination was
somehow made in a matter of
days?

" for scientists it has to be" is twaddle.
In additin to saying they are dishonest to the
core.

And behave in that anti science way to fight against
one ecceentric way of reading one " holy"
book. As if that's possible, or even sane.

All evidence shows slow annual accumulation.
Like the count back to vesuvias I mentioned

A conspiracy to involve Chinese tussian German
Japanese American Canadian Danish etc to
all falsify their work not actually reasonable
or even possible.

Resort to making up such claims should be
a Clue for you.

Of total BS.

ETA, anyone who could disprove ToE would be
hailed amo g the greatest discoverers in
history.

Quite a conspiracy to keep even one person
from spilling the beans.

I’m trying to say I already abandoned the pre-flood layer thought, and agreed with AV’s comment in post #105, I did so in post #111, but people keep asking me questions about pre-flood polar ice caps, which weren’t there. It’s turning into word scramble.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I’m trying to say I already abandoned the pre-flood layer thought, and agreed with AV’s comment in post #105, I did so in post #111, but people keep asking me questions about pre-flood polar ice caps, which weren’t there. It’s turning into word scramble.

I'm not asking about pre-flood layers. I'm asking you to explain how you get 420,000 layers (that's what they have from the Vostok core) laid down with just a few minutes between each layer with all the volcanism and climate change recorded in each layer. Assuming 1 year post flood we're looking at 1100 layers per day, thats 45-50 layers per hour. There's massive amounts of heat and energy required, yet you just want us to accept that it happened. It's your claim, so please explain how it could happen.

 

[AV1611VET]

You say the earth has an embedded age. What does that even mean?

I define embedded age as "maturity without history."

Adam, for example, came into existence some twenty or thirty years old.

Can God create a dress tomorrow, so old it falls apart with age?