Speaking in Tounges

[Asaph]

That would be Satan...the difference between myself and Satan is that I have my place in the heaven dwelling. I find it classic that most non-charismatics cannot argue against the cessationist position and so try to make cessationist out to be satan admirers.

I find it incredible that most cessationists are so stiff necked that even though they are proven wrong repeatedly with scripture they still cling pitifully to their man made doctrines rather than trusting in the Lord.

How's that for broad, condemming generalizations?

Actually AV, if you don't want to speak in tongues then by all means don't! But stop accusing those who do of being the devil's minions. You don't like it, I don't like it, and nobody else does either.

Grace and Peace to you today AV,
Asaph

 

[sunshinejennii]

Some people do know what they are saying. I think the point about testing spirits is interesting, we should not doubt our God but a little confirmation would be nice sometimes. Prehaps anyone who can speak in tongues who isnt sure in their heart that its a gift from GOD could pray that God's will be done, if it is not the right thing then he will remove it, if it is he will give you the knowledge of his power.

 

[Iosias]

Some people do know what they are saying.

I wonder...well...how about you shewing me from scripture that the gift of tongues is for today? Start your post by defining it from the Bible!!

 

[alaskamolly]

The same question can be politely turned around: Please prove that it is not.





1 Corinthians shares that tongues were a normal part of a church.

Now, Corinth was not a very healthy church, so Paul had to give them some specified instruction. So many today will take that fact and then make a logical fallacy out of it: "Because Corinth used tongues inappropriately and had problems, therefore tongues are not for today."

According to the NT, supernatural gifts were a normal part of church life. Now, the common idea today is that because we have the Bible, we no longer need supernatural gifts like tongues and prophecy, but... chapter and verse, please.

And yes, I know about the argument that uses 1 Cor. 13:9-13 as it's base, but let's be VERY careful in how we use that passage...because if you take that logically, you are saying if "that which is perfect" is the Bible, then not only do TONGUES and PROPHECY cease, but also KNOWLEDGE... It just doesn't make sense to me at all...

Besides that, the Bible is not perfect. It's original manuscripts were God-breathed, but not every single period and comma is now in the perfect spot--scholars had to made educated guesses--so we can say it's darn near perfect and very very trustworthy, worthy of serious study and meditation because God's words are on those black-and-white pages... but it is NOT perfection. GOD is perfection.


One other logical fallacy that is commonly made: "I see major nasty things in the Charismatic movement, and/or I've seen people grossly misuse so-called 'spiritual gifts,' so therefore there are not actual God-given supernatural spiritual gifts today."

Another illogical conclusion: Lots of people (on TV, in crazy pentacostal churches, whatever) claim they have spiritual gifts but it doesn't feel like it's really God--or they use them as a means to get more money from viewers, or just have a really nasty spirit about the way they do everything...

Well, the fact that there is a lot of demonic and fleshly misuse/counterfeit going on does not mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are plenty of Christian sects that are SO off-base (we can all think of plenty right off the top of our heads--Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, etc..), but that in no way "proves" that Christianity itself is wrong. You see my point.

One other important thing to remember is the Corinthians themselves are living proof that supernatural spiritual gifts CAN be mis-used, and are NO indicator of spiritual maturity. They are supposed to help the Body of Christ grow into the Head (Eph.4), however babes do not always 'get' that, and if they do not have mature leaders, they'll use their gifts in fleshly ways.



Anyways... I'd recommend this:

Read 1 Corinthians with an open heart, willing to be shown that supernatural gifts ARE for today (if Yahweh really does think so)...
You may be surprised! :o) Ephesians 4 and Romans 12 are other great ones--supernatural gifts (like prophecy, etc...) are considered a normal and healthy part of a growing Body...




From a former tongue-skeptic...
Mol

 

[sunshinejennii]

I wonder...well...how about you shewing me from scripture that the gift of tongues is for today? Start your post by defining it from the Bible!!

I can provide scriptual basis both ways, and i think theres a pretty much even argument either way. Im not disagreeing with you because my mind is not totally made up.

My belief that the gift of tongues may still be given is based purely on
(1)the number of people I know who speak in tongues,
(2)me praying and the answer I feel GOD gives and
(3)a deep sense inside that these people are not speaking demonically.

Im aware that this isnt a good argument and that you or someone else will get slightly agressive towards me as a result, but at least im being honest.

The statement of mine you quoted "Some people do know what they are saying" cant really be proven biblically, I said that based on people who were able to tell me what they said, who flowed between english and tongues and also based on people I know who translate tongues, write it down and then ask the speaker if thats what they said and are correct.

 

[tesnusxenos]

Romans 14

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


and
Romans 14
16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil

After saying the above I am bowing out of this argument.

 

[Iosias]

I can provide scriptual basis both ways, and i think theres a pretty much even argument either way. Im not disagreeing with you because my mind is not totally made up.

My belief that the gift of tongues may still be given is based purely on
(1)the number of people I know who speak in tongues,
(2)me praying and the answer I feel GOD gives and
(3)a deep sense inside that these people are not speaking demonically.

Im aware that this isnt a good argument and that you or someone else will get slightly agressive towards me as a result, but at least im being honest.

We know that Satan is the "great deciever" and so people's experiences are not evidence either way. The ONLY place to know for sure either way is to see what the Bible says. You see you state that both sides can be proven scripturally but this isjust not the case. Many of the Charismatic arguments uses poor translation...for example thay use the term "unknown tongue" to refer to estatic speech but if one translates properly it refers to gibberish...unknown meaning they are unintelligable and tongue in the singular due to the fact that you have 'gibberish' not 'gibberishes'. Once you study the Greek it becomes a whole lot simpler!! I have posted many posts on this topic so I amsure you will be able to find some of my more detailed posts somewhere!!

 

[sunshinejennii]

Im sure I will!!

The thing we're just arguing about what is essentially the window dressing for the heart of the issue. At the end of the day if im wrong and your right and this matters to God then i'll suffer the consequences of it! Its incredibly flattering that you care about what'll happen to me after death but I just dont think God minds whether or not we believe the gift of tongues still exists.

 

[Abiel]

this is how I know what I speak is good - Jesus is in my heart
Luke 6
45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. (NIV)
Luke 6
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.(KJV)


This did me the world of good- thanx!

 

[Abiel]

'Once you study the Greek it becomes a whole lot simpler!! '

All the convinced charismatics i know also know nt greek- it doesnt seem to put them off

 

[alaskamolly]

I studied NT Greek in college.

I love being able to really delve into the Scriptures.

I'm convinced that the supernatural gifts are for today, and what first convinced me was Scripture.

What brought me to search the Scriptures was my observations of fleshly demonic-looking "spiritual gifts" being touted by some of my colleagues. They further told me that unless I had "the Baptism of the Holy Spirit," I would go to hell.


Well, obviously that inspired me to do some serious studying, not to qualm my fears (As a solid Christian, I was certainly not worried about going to hell becuase of their disapproval), but more to find a lot of Scriptural support to show them their errors--one colleague in particular that I was close with and worried for.


As I searched, I certainly did find plenty to show their views were in error, but I also found nothing to back up my "no supernatural gifts" mindset. Though I was a Dispensationalist (I'd never questioned whether there was even anything else!), I could not find much in the Scripture to support my position--on Disp or on my "no gifts" stance.

It was very uncomfortable...

And that was the beginning of my search and my entrance into supernatural gifts. I certainly do NOT think they are the "most" important thing...but I do find them very helpful at times, and very useful for the edification of the saints.

Blessings,
Mol

 

[Abiel]

I studied NT Greek in college.

I love being able to really delve into the Scriptures.

I'm convinced that the supernatural gifts are for today, and what first convinced me was Scripture.

What brought me to search the Scriptures was my observations of fleshly demonic-looking "spiritual gifts" being touted by some of my colleagues. They further told me that unless I had "the Baptism of the Holy Spirit," I would go to hell.


Well, obviously that inspired me to do some serious studying, not to qualm my fears (As a solid Christian, I was certainly not worried about going to hell becuase of their disapproval), but more to find a lot of Scriptural support to show them their errors--one colleague in particular that I was close with and worried for.


As I searched, I certainly did find plenty to show their views were in error, but I also found nothing to back up my "no supernatural gifts" mindset. Though I was a Dispensationalist (I'd never questioned whether there was even anything else!), I could not find much in the Scripture to support my position--on Disp or on my "no gifts" stance.

It was very uncomfortable...

And that was the beginning of my search and my entrance into supernatural gifts. I certainly do NOT think they are the "most" important thing...but I do find them very helpful at times, and very useful for the edification of the saints.

Blessings,
Mol

A most balanced response- sums up my hopes and fears. Other peoples silliness shouldn't cause me to doubt my own gifts. I'm sorry Lord for doubting you

 

[Iosias]

All the convinced charismatics i know also know nt greek- it doesnt seem to put them off

I said it becomes simpler not blindingly obvious!! Althought it is not far off!

 

[DIVAMOM]

I'll say this:
The argueing and questioning of another's faith is absolutely ridiculous and needs to stop. All of our goals here are to assimilate to Christ, or at least it should be as born-again believers. WE shouldn't be insulting another's denomination for what it teaches or believes, THAT is NOT Biblical.
I'm writing this off the cuff, and don't have my Bible in front of me, but it does say in the New Testament that we should not quarrel about words or the meaning of words because if we have time to do that then we should have time to be doing His good works.
Enough of that. Onto the really good stuff.
I'm going to ask you this: Why would the Lord allow Satan to interject himself in the form of tounges if it is demonic into a 13-yo CHILD'S life?
I just can't belive and don't believe that He would. He protects children.
I began speaking in tongues when I was 13 years old. I was in church in a classroom with several other students and our teacher. She asked if we wanted it, I said yes, we prayed and I did.
Later, speaking ot my mother, I found out that she, one of my aunts and later my grandmother ALL had the same "baptism" experience that I did. I say baptism because I know no other way to state it.
While the lady was praying over me in tongues and english interchangeably, I kinda lapsed into a different place, a higher one, that I now know was right with the Holy Spirit. As I walked and listened to her speaking "underwater" I began to see light. I felt this overwhelming sense of love and gentleness, fear and obedience, it was wonderful. Walking toward the light, and making jokes of it at the same time because you always hear about people crossing over and walking toward the light, I understood that what was happening was the very most important thing in my walk with Christ. I vaguely remember stairs, but I didn't walk up them. I just saw the light, felt the LORDS GREAT GLORY, and started speaking in my prayer language. It was truely divine.
I encourage any of you that have had experiences like this to share them with us. I'd especially like to know how many of you have had the same experience. So far, in my family alone, that's three generations of seeing the same thing when being given the gift of tongues.
When we say the Lord cannot give the gift of tongues today, then we are saying His infinite power is limited. And we should all agree, being born again believer that that is not the case.
I know my gift is not demonic, because of the constant reaffirmation of the the many things I'm told while I'm praying that happen without my interferring.

We are also told to test the person and their faith, and when you disagree and say that tongues is demonic, look at the person. Are there faith without works there? Or are the works REALLY there and you refuse to see them?

Pray honestly and openly and you'll be suprised at what happens. I look to how many muslims and other faiths have been converted to Christianity when they take the same approach, while I've never heard of one Christian being converted to another faith. That to me is faith with works.

 

[Abiel]

I said it becomes simpler not blindingly obvious!! Althought it is not far off!

Now you see I am a simple soul, and if you wantme to understand you will have to explain more carefully as it is usually water off a ducks back to me- hardened in the university of being insulted by fellow believers I am. Could you explain please?

 

[Iosias]

I'll say this:
The argueing and questioning of another's faith is absolutely ridiculous and needs to stop. All of our goals here are to assimilate to Christ, or at least it should be as born-again believers. WE shouldn't be insulting another's denomination for what it teaches or believes, THAT is NOT Biblical.
I'm writing this off the cuff, and don't have my Bible in front of me, but it does say in the New Testament that we should not quarrel about words or the meaning of words because if we have time to do that then we should have time to be doing His good works.
Enough of that. Onto the really good stuff.
I'm going to ask you this: Why would the Lord allow Satan to interject himself in the form of tounges if it is demonic into a 13-yo CHILD'S life?
I just can't belive and don't believe that He would. He protects children.
I began speaking in tongues when I was 13 years old. I was in church in a classroom with several other students and our teacher. She asked if we wanted it, I said yes, we prayed and I did.
Later, speaking ot my mother, I found out that she, one of my aunts and later my grandmother ALL had the same "baptism" experience that I did. I say baptism because I know no other way to state it.
While the lady was praying over me in tongues and english interchangeably, I kinda lapsed into a different place, a higher one, that I now know was right with the Holy Spirit. As I walked and listened to her speaking "underwater" I began to see light. I felt this overwhelming sense of love and gentleness, fear and obedience, it was wonderful. Walking toward the light, and making jokes of it at the same time because you always hear about people crossing over and walking toward the light, I understood that what was happening was the very most important thing in my walk with Christ. I vaguely remember stairs, but I didn't walk up them. I just saw the light, felt the LORDS GREAT GLORY, and started speaking in my prayer language. It was truely divine.
I encourage any of you that have had experiences like this to share them with us. I'd especially like to know how many of you have had the same experience. So far, in my family alone, that's three generations of seeing the same thing when being given the gift of tongues.
When we say the Lord cannot give the gift of tongues today, then we are saying His infinite power is limited. And we should all agree, being born again believer that that is not the case.
I know my gift is not demonic, because of the constant reaffirmation of the the many things I'm told while I'm praying that happen without my interferring.

We are also told to test the person and their faith, and when you disagree and say that tongues is demonic, look at the person. Are there faith without works there? Or are the works REALLY there and you refuse to see them?

Pray honestly and openly and you'll be suprised at what happens. I look to how many muslims and other faiths have been converted to Christianity when they take the same approach, while I've never heard of one Christian being converted to another faith. That to me is faith with works.

As I have said over and over again...experience is not the basis of any theological position a study of the Bible is though and the Holy Bible states that the gift of tongues has ceased.

 

[alaskamolly]

I'd really like to see where "the Holy Bible says that the gift of tongues HAS ceased..."

I believe I dealt with that earlier in a previous post...and was waiting for your response...but I'm noticing you've neglected to give any replies to any rational arguments against your positions...



Warm Regards,
Molly

 

[TheScottsMen]

'Once you study the Greek it becomes a whole lot simpler!! '

I disagree with this statement. Being able to translate the NT into your native tongue has nothing to do with believing in the gift of tongues or not, its your theology about what you read. I've taken Greek I & II the past 3 semesters and the college I attend is Pentecostal/WOF, so that kinda puts that comment to rest

 

[Iosias]

I'd really like to see where "the Holy Bible says that the gift of tongues HAS ceased..."

Warm Regards,
Molly

Like I said in my first post...if you check my posting history you will find many many posts on this topic...likewise you could read this: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/tongues/tongues.htm

 

[Iosias]

'Once you study the Greek it becomes a whole lot simpler!! '

I disagree with this statement. Being able to translate the NT into your native tongue has nothing to do with believing in the gift of tongues or not, its your theology about what you read. I've taken Greek I & II the past 3 semesters and the college I attend is Pentecostal/WOF, so that kinda puts that comment to rest

I think you missed the point or more likely I failed to explain it explicitly so here goes...if one studies the Greek text one can see the sentence structure and the original wording which helps to destroy some poor interpretations which inevitably makes it simpler to understand what it is saying. For example Paul says "unknown tongues" and Charismatics take this to mean that in the gift of tongues the tongue is unknown...however when one seriously studies the Greek one can much more easily see that he is actually referring to gibberish, i.e. counterfeit tongues...when you take the whole text into account. However even after studying the Greek some will draw the conclusion that they want to i.e. that it is still for today when scripture says differently. Clear?