Speaking in Tounges

Is speaking in tounges really a Gift?

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ShaunJ

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aggie03 said:
You seem to be indicating that you believe the word "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 means "without sin", or "without blemish". If this your definition then you must also define the phrase "in part" as contrasting with this definition of "perfect", because this is what Paul has done.

In this case then, we would be forced to define the phrase "in part" as "with sin" or "with blemish". This is absolutly necessary in order to maintain the integrity of the passage. If this is true, then this is how the passage would read:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 ASV

Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. (9) For we know in part [with sin], and we prophesy in part [with sin]; (10) but when that which is perfect [without sin] is come, that which is in part [with sin] shall be done away.

The original text is in blue, the definitions are in red. If what you are putting forward for the definition is true, then practicing spiritual gifts, or manifestations of the Spirit, are "with sin". In other words, if you're speaking in tongues, you're sinning.

This is the logical conclusion that must be reached in order to maintain the integrity of the passage with the definition that you have put forward. I would suggest that the word perfect here does not carry with it a connotation of being without sin, because it refers to something that cannot sin - the word of God.

In this case, the word "perfect" would merely mean "complete" or "whole". With this understanding, when the whole revelation of God's word becomes available, then the things which are "in part" or "incomplete" are no longer needed and therefore done away with. This makes much more sense that what you are suggesting.
Ummm, no.

When that which is perfect JESUS comes then there will be no need for any of that.

If the word of God is so perfect why are sitting here arguing about it? I'm sorry but the word perfect there is not talking about the canon of scripture. According to you we already know everything we need to know. If thats true why wait on Jesus? Get the ball rolling without him. I'm ready to go home.
 
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aggie03

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ShaunJ said:
Ummm, no.
Would you mind exegeting that passage for me then, being consistent and maintaining its integrity, to prove that your understanding is the true one? I've already shown how it cannot be correct, could you show me the error in my thinking?

When that which is perfect JESUS comes then there will be no need for any of that.
Please see my previous post, again, about why this cannot be correct. Your merely restating it in no way proves it to be true.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8830758&postcount=215

If the word of God is so perfect why are sitting here arguing about it?
The Jews argued about whether or not Jesus was the Christ, should we just forget about that, too? Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus wasn't divine, but only a created being - should we just get rid of the concept of the Godhead?

Just because there is dialogue taking place, or even disagreement, in no way discredits the things which the Scriptures plainly teach.

Psalms 19:7-10 ASV

The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple. (8) The precepts of Jehovah are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of Jehovah is pure, enlightening the eyes. (9) The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring for ever: The ordinances of Jehovah are true, and righteous altogether. (10) More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb.

John 17:17 ASV

Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 ASV

Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.


On just looking over these few verses very quickly it seems as though the word of God cannot contain any errors - especially if it is the "word of Truth".

I'm sorry but the word perfect there is not talking about the canon of scripture.
Why not? Why can't it be talking about the Scriptures? Just because you make this claim? You're going to have to back this up with proof, from the Bible, if you want me to believe it.

Again, I must stress, that the word "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 does not mean "without sin" because the Scriptures cannot sin. Rather this word merely means complete.

The spiritual gifts were given at a time when the Scriptures were still being written - they were in part. Now we have them in their entirety - they are perfect. Because the perfect, or complete, has come, we no longer need the partial.

According to you we already know everything we need to know.
I never said this - you are putting words in my mouth. I don't appreciate that.

Not every person knows what they need to know, or every person would be saved. Rather, every person could have access to the Scriptures where they can learn everything that God has decided is important for us to know.

If thats true why wait on Jesus?
Seeing as how that's not true, I don't think this is a valid question.

Again, I must stress, your mere disagreement and negative asertion proves nothing. You must offer evidence for the things that you claim.
 
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ShaunJ

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"Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor. 13:8-10. The phrase, "when that which is perfect is come," is translated from the Greek phrase "to teleion". The word "teleion" is a singular neuter term which refers to Jesus Christ. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, p.618, defines the phrase “to teleion” as used in I Cor. 13:10: "The perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven." Paul said, "Now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then (when that which is perfect is come) shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor. 13:12. When the church, having reached her state of perfection, stands face to face in the presence of God, there will be no need for prophecies, tongues and knowledge. But until that which is perfect (Jesus Christ) is come, that which is in part will remain. And as long as there remains prophecies and knowledge, tongues shall not cease. So Paul instructed the church to COME BEHIND IN NO GIFT, WAITING FOR THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. I Cor. 1:7.
 
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ShaunJ

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1Co13:8-13
Here the apostle goes on to commend charity, and show how much it is preferable to the gifts on which the Corinthians were so apt to pride themselves, to the utter neglect, and almost extinction, of charity. This he makes out,

I. From its longer continuance and duration: Charity never faileth. It is a permanent and perpetual grace, lasting as eternity; whereas the extraordinary gifts on which the Corinthians valued themselves were of short continuance. They were only to edify the church on earth, and that but for a time, not during its whole continuance in this world; but in heaven would be all superseded, which yet is the very seat and element of love. Prophecy must fail, that is, either the prediction of things to come (which is its most common sense) or the interpretation of scripture by immediate inspiration. Tongues will cease, that is, the miraculous power of speaking languages without learning them. There will be but one language in heaven. There is no confusion of tongues in the region of perfect tranquility. And knowledge will vanish away. Not that, in the perfect state above, holy and happy souls shall be unknowing, ignorant: it is a very poor happiness that can consist with utter ignorance. The apostle is plainly speaking of miraculous gifts, and therefore of knowledge to be had out of the common way (see 1Co14:6), a knowledge of mysteries supernaturally communicated. Such knowledge was to vanish away. Some indeed understand it of common knowledge acquired by instruction, taught and learnt. This way of knowing is to vanish away, though the knowledge itself, once acquired, will not be lost. But it is plain that the apostle is here setting the grace of charity in opposition to supernatural gifts. And it is more valuable, because more durable; it shall last, when they shall be no more; it shall enter into heaven, where they will have no place, because they will be of no use, though, in a sense, even our common knowledge may be said to cease in heaven, by reason of the improvement that will then be made in it. The light of a candle is perfectly obscured by the sun shining in its strength.

II. He hints that these gifts are adapted only to a state of imperfection: We know in part, and we prophesy in part, 1Co13:9. Our best knowledge and our greatest abilities are at present like our condition, narrow and temporary. Even the knowledge they had by inspiration was but in part. How little a portion of God, and the unseen world, was heard even by apostles and inspired men! How much short do others come of them! But these gifts were fitted to the present imperfect state of the church, valuable in themselves, but not to be compared with charity, because they were to vanish with the imperfections of the church, nay, and long before, whereas charity was to last for ever.

III. He takes occasion hence to show how much better it will be with the church hereafter than it can be here. A state of perfection is in view (1Co13:10): When that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness. God will be known then clearly, and in a manner by intuition, and as perfectly as the capacity of glorified minds will allow; not by such transient glimpses, and little portions, as here. The difference between these two states is here pointed at in two particulars:

1. The present state is a state of childhood, the future that of manhood: When I was a child, I spoke as a child (that is, as some think, spoke with tongues), I understood as a child; ephronoun - sapiebam (that is, “I prophesied, I was taught the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, in such an extraordinary way as manifested I was not out of my childish state”), I thought, or reasoned, elogizome¯n, as a child; but, when I became a man, I put away childish things. Such is the difference between earth and heaven. What narrow views, what confused and indistinct notions of things, have children, in comparison of grown men! And how naturally do men, when reason is ripened and matured, despise and relinquish their infant thoughts, put them away, reject them, esteem as nothing! Thus shall we think of our most valued gifts and acquisitions in this world, when we come to heaven. We shall despise our childish folly, in priding ourselves in such things when we are grown up to men in Christ.

2. Things are all dark and confused now, in comparison of what they will be hereafter: Now we see through a glass darkly (en ainigmati, in a riddle), then face to face; now we know in part, but then we shall know as we are known. Now we can only discern things at a great distance, as through a telescope, and that involved in clouds and obscurity; but hereafter the things to be known will be near and obvious, open to our eyes; and our knowledge will be free from all obscurity and error. God is to be seen face to face; and we are to know him as we are known by him; not indeed as perfectly, but in some sense in the same manner. We are known to him by mere inspection; he turns his eye towards us, and sees and searches us throughout. We shall then fix our eye on him, and see him as he is, 1Jo3:2. We shall know how we are known, enter into all the mysteries of divine love and grace. O glorious change! To pass from darkness to light, from clouds to the clear sunshine of our Saviour's face, and in God's own light to see light! Psa36:9. Note, It is the light of heaven only that will remove all clouds and darkness from the face of God. It is at best but twilight while we are in this world; there it will be perfect and eternal day.

IV. To sum up the excellences of charity, he prefers it not only to gifts, but to other graces, to faith and hope (1Co13:13): And now abide faith, hope, and charity; but the greatest of these is charity. True grace is much more excellent than any spiritual gifts whatever. And faith, hope, and love, are the three principal graces, of which charity is the chief, being the end to which the other two are but means. This is the divine nature, the soul's felicity, or its complacential rest in God, and holy delight in all his saints. And it is everlasting work, when faith and hope shall be no more. Faith fixes on the divine revelation, and assents to that: hope fastens on future felicity, and waits for that: and in heaven faith well be swallowed up in vision, and hope in fruition. There is no room to believe and hope, when we see and enjoy. But love fastens on the divine perfections themselves, and the divine image on the creatures, and our mutual relation both to God and them. These will all shine forth in the most glorious splendours in another world, and there will love be made perfect; there we shall perfectly love God, because he will appear amiable for ever, and our hearts will kindle at the sight, and glow with perpetual devotion. And there shall we perfectly love one another, when all the saints meet there, when none but saints are there, and saints made perfect. O blessed state! How much surpassing the best below! O amiable and excellent grace of charity! How much does it exceed the most valuable gift, when it outshines every grace, and is the everlasting consummation of them! When faith and hope are at an end, true charity will burn for ever with the brightest flame. Note, Those border most upon the heavenly state and perfection whose hearts are fullest of this divine principle, and burn with the most fervent charity. It is the surest offspring of God, and bears his fairest impression. For God is love, 1Jo4:8, 1Jo4:16. And where God is to be seen as he is, and face to face, there charity is in its greatest height - there, and there only, will it be perfected.
 
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No matter how many ways you cut, dice and slice the scripture, there is no way to prove or disprove that what is described as the gift of tongues used today is the same as what was practiced when the apostles laid on hands.

It is my belief that it is likely not the same thing. Just because a person speaks in what sounds like gibberish doesn not mean they have the same gift of tongues spoken of in the bible. I am sorry to sound harsh and perhaps divisive, but my hope is that some people reading this will begin to question their experience and start putting the focus where it belongs...on Christ.

The only thing that would be proof is if someone spoke in another known language without learning it and had good witnesses. If tongues were truly a gift for today it should be fairly common that people would be speaking in other known languages as a matter of course. You do hear the rumors but seldom are able to see it in practice.

It is my belief that God can and probably does occasionally give someone the gift of an unknown tongue to communicate his message to a person from another language group. But iit has not been my experience that this is a common practice. Most missionaries have to study for years to learn another language well enough to communicate the gospel.
 
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wotupjoe

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The only thing that would be proof is if someone spoke in another known language without learning it and had good witnesses. If tongues were truly a gift for today it should be fairly common that people would be speaking in other known languages as a matter of course. You do hear the rumors but seldom are able to see it in practice.
How many people from other countries do you have in your church? This has actually happened to me, if you'll read my previous post. Here's what I said:

I've also been involved in a service where a Nigerian tourist was visiting the church and someone got up and spoke in tongues. The person speaking had no clue that this tourist was in the service. After the service the man came up to the person who spoke and asked him when he had been to Nigeria and learnt his language. The person had never been to Nigeria and had no clue about what he had just said but it touched the Nigerian and he eventually gave his life to Christ. This is just like what happened in Acts so please tell me how it could have disappeared by the present day?
May I suggest that the reason why you only hear rumours of this today and don't see it for yourself is because you're not going out and practicing it yourself.

I've been under spiritual attack and spoken in tongues and immediately I've felt the demon leave. When I feel down and I'm filled with doubt, I speak in tongues and I feel better again. The first sign that most people get when filled with the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. Do they just copy the person praying for them? To be honest, sometimes yes, but God honours the fact that they're trying and he gives the gift to them genuinely. It's all a matter of faith here which is why, until you've experienced the power of speaking in tongues yourself, you won't be able to understand why people do it.

The "perfect" is talking about Jesus. When He comes back, then all spiritual gifts will cease. The "perfect" was not referring to the scriptures because, if that was the case, then at the time Paul wrote about them, they should have already have ceased since scripture already existed.

I think the whole bottom line here is that I've experienced the power of speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit. Others have also experienced it. Those who haven't experienced it do not understand why people do it or if they're just talking gibberish. You will never understand until you step out in faith and receive what God has freely given.
 
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I've also been involved in a service where a Nigerian tourist was visiting the church and someone got up and spoke in tongues. The person speaking had no clue that this tourist was in the service. After the service the man came up to the person who spoke and asked him when he had been to Nigeria and learnt his language. The person had never been to Nigeria and had no clue about what he had just said but it touched the Nigerian and he eventually gave his life to Christ. This is just like what happened in Acts so please tell me how it could have disappeared by the present day?


This is truly what I would say is the gift of tongues. But you know this is not a common occurence.

You also know that the only proof that you have that your tongues speaking is biblical is that the Bible does talk about other tongues and something is coming out of your mouth that you cannot understand. Therefore you and others jump to the conclusion that it is the same as the biblical tongues. It may be...but I feel it is likely not. I have good reasons for my belief as you feel you have good reasons for yours. Neither of us can prove our position from the bible.

I believe that tongues is just the tip of a huge and growing apostasy that is taking the focus off of Christ. It is putting the focus on the manifiestation, the feeling, the power, the miracle and not on who Christ is and what he has done for us.
 
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Iosias

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JVD said:
I believe that tongues is just the tip of a huge and growing apostasy that is taking the focus off of Christ. It is putting the focus on the manifiestation, the feeling, the power, the miracle and not on who Christ is and what he has done for us.
:( Amen! :cry:
 
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wotupjoe

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JVD said:
I believe that tongues is just the tip of a huge and growing apostasy that is taking the focus off of Christ. It is putting the focus on the manifiestation, the feeling, the power, the miracle and not on who Christ is and what he has done for us.
Huh!!!!:scratch: What Christ did for us was powerful, a great miracle and the ultimate manifestation of love ever shown! Everytime I think about it, I feel unworthy and eternally grateful!:bow:

This is truly what I would say is the gift of tongues. But you know this is not a common occurence.
Once again, I point to the fact as to why it's not a common occurance for you - could it be, the reason why you hardly hear of this thing at your church is because there aren't any/enough people there from other countries so you would have no way of knowing whether or not you just spoke another language?

You also know that the only proof that you have that your tongues speaking is biblical is that the Bible does talk about other tongues and something is coming out of your mouth that you cannot understand. Therefore you and others jump to the conclusion that it is the same as the biblical tongues. It may be...but I feel it is likely not. I have good reasons for my belief as you feel you have good reasons for yours. Neither of us can prove our position from the bible.
Let's see... I get filled with the Holy Spirit (the Bible said they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began talking in other tongues), can feel the presence and power of God (obviously because the Holy Spirit is there), and then start speaking in tongues... GASP!!:eek: Could it be that, even though the bible says it will happen this way, I'm not actually speaking in tongues?
The bible says that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are there to evangelize. If God gives me the tools for evangelization and I don't use them, what kind of nutter am I? Let's see, I've seen first hand what happens when the other 7 gifts are manifested (excluding Speaking in Tongues and Interpretation of Tongues) and I've seen how people are affected by the obvious power of God when He moves with these 7 gifts... why is it safe to assume that, even though all these other gifts are so obviously in the church today and doing their job (that of to evangelize), speaking in tongues just can't be right? It just doesn't make sense to me.:scratch:
I have witnessed first hand all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I've personally been healed by God and been given prophecies, given out prophecies, words of knowledge, etc. So why did that all happen to me? Was it Satan? If that's your answer then I'd kindly request that you to turn to Matthew 7:7-11 and read what Jesus says about asking things from God. There's no way it's from Satan! Although, I'm sure you know that, being such great scholars and all.
My reasons for belief are God's Word and then the physical manifestation of God's Word. What are yours?
You go on about how the bible is the living Word of God (which I agree with you 100% by the way) but then you say that you can't prove your ideas with the bible. If you can't prove it with the bible, then it's false.

I challenge anyone who thinks they can prove, with the bible, the idea that tongues has now ceased. Tell me your experiences that have led you to believe that they don't exist, tell me what your interpretation of the scriptures is regarding the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, start a new thread anywhere you want and then PM me to let me know when you're ready. You can use the bible of your choice (I know that some of you have biased ideas about your bible version so I'll let you try and prove it from you own bible).
I know that I'm starting something big here but I genuinely want all to experience the power of God in their lives, the same way I have experienced it.;)
 
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Once again, I point to the fact as to why it's not a common occurance for you - could it be, the reason why you hardly hear of this thing at your church is because there aren't any/enough people there from other countries so you would have no way of knowing whether or not you just spoke another language?

Is this is common occurence in your church?

Let's see... I get filled with the Holy Spirit (the Bible said they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began talking in other tongues), can feel the presence and power of God (obviously because the Holy Spirit is there), and then start speaking in tongues... GASP!! Could it be that, even though the bible says it will happen this way, I'm not actually speaking in tongues?

Sounds are coming out of your mouth that you do not understand. You assume it is the tongues of the bible. There is nothing other than your hope, expectation, assumption, feeling, desire that says it is the tongues of the Bible. In fact most if not all the references to tongues in the bible are references to known languages. You know that the sounds coming out of your mouth are not known languages. There is good reason to believe that those sounds are not biblical tongues.

Actually, as I said before, neither of us can prove our position from the bible. The reason we can't prove this from the bible is that althought the bible speaks of tongues there is absolutely no way to tell if the sounds you are making and hearing would be authenticated by the apostles to be given to you by the Holy Spirit. Since it is my belief that the sounds would be known languages, I think those sounds are likely just that...sounds. You do know that many other groups that are not christian also make those sounds do you not?

All of those other "manifestations of gifts" are just like the tongues. You assume they are real. The expectation that they are going to happen, the correct situation, the desire to see it happen are all very powerful. One experience then leads to higher and higher expectations and a greater acceptance of things that you assume to be God working. But in fact it is all a combination of self-delusion, group dynamics, emotions, hypnosis, and manipulation.

I actually don't think much of this stuff comes directly from Satan. I think he is likely happy to see it but it most of it is not supernatural. A lot of it happens during an altered state that is usually brought on intially by a very emotional high and later can become a natural learned behavior.

As I said before, I don't think anyone can prove from the bible that tongues have now ceased. I also know that no one can prove from the bible that the sounds they make are biblical tongues.

I know that even entertaining the thought that all the effort, expectation, friends, leaders, euphoria, and power that these "signs" bring could be based on a falsehood is scarey, It is my hope that some will see the light and turn from this way.
 
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Iosias

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wotupjoe said:
The bible says that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are there to evangelize.
No it does not...it says that they are a sign-gift shewing that Israel had been set aside and will be judged which occurred in AD70.

I challenge anyone who thinks they can prove, with the bible, the idea that tongues has now ceased. Tell me your experiences that have led you to believe that they don't exist, tell me what your interpretation of the scriptures is regarding the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, start a new thread anywhere you want and then PM me to let me know when you're ready.
Go to the yound adults ministry and read my posts in the thread entitled Charismatic Christianity. :) For starters: :preach: The Bible points solely to one purpose of tongues and that is to be a sign. John MacArthur, in his commentary upon 1 Corinthians, distinguishes 3 sign purposes of tongues: (1) a sign of cursing, (2) a sign of blessing, and (3) a sign of authority. Now at Pentecost the purpose of gifts was to shew Israel that they were being set aside and were going to be judged which occured in AD70 therefore the purpose of cursing has ceased. Tongues were a sign of blessing because with Israel being set aside the door was being opened to the gentiles and so with the sign of blessing done the blessing purpose has ceased. And “Tongues were a part of the miraculous era of Christ and the apostles and were necessary, along with the gift of miracles, as an authenticating sign of the apostles (2 Corinthians 12:12)” and so with the authority purpose ceased all the purposes of tongues has ceased therefore the gift is no longer needed and has ceased.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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AV1611 said:
No it does not...it says that they are a sign-gift shewing that Israel had been set aside and will be judged which occurred in AD70.

Go to the yound adults ministry and read my posts in the thread entitled Charismatic Christianity. :) For starters: :preach: The Bible points solely to one purpose of tongues and that is to be a sign. John MacArthur, in his commentary upon 1 Corinthians, distinguishes 3 sign purposes of tongues: (1) a sign of cursing, (2) a sign of blessing, and (3) a sign of authority. Now at Pentecost the purpose of gifts was to shew Israel that they were being set aside and were going to be judged which occured in AD70 therefore the purpose of cursing has ceased. Tongues were a sign of blessing because with Israel being set aside the door was being opened to the gentiles and so with the sign of blessing done the blessing purpose has ceased. And “Tongues were a part of the miraculous era of Christ and the apostles and were necessary, along with the gift of miracles, as an authenticating sign of the apostles (2 Corinthians 12:12)” and so with the authority purpose ceased all the purposes of tongues has ceased therefore the gift is no longer needed and has ceased.
So you're leaning upon John MacArthur's understanding of the scripture? You should study for yourself the the Word, not someone's commentary on the Word. It's kinda like trying to live off eating what someone else has regurgitated.
 
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Iosias

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Quaffer said:
So you're leaning upon John MacArthur's understanding of the scripture?
Not at all...I have read many books on this issue from both sides and in doing so and checking their claims against scripture and much prayer I have concluded that the cessationist is correct. Need I remind you that cessationism was the major doctrine taught up until only recently and that the pentecostal movement started due to an experience a women had. It was not Biblically based but experienced based!
 
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David Brider

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AV1611 said:
No it does not...it says that they are a sign-gift shewing that Israel had been set aside and will be judged which occurred in AD70.
In my studies, I've found at least four uses of the gift of tongues:

1.) A sign for unbelievers (as per Acts 2)
2.) Edification of self
3.) Communication with God (for 2 & 3, see 1 Corinthians 14:2 - 5)
4.) Edification of the church (1 Corinthians 14:26 - 28)

Also, these passages appear to refer to two types of tongues - known earthly languages (as per Acts 2) and unknown heavenly languages languages (1 Corinthians 14:2 - 5). It's possible that the latter passage is in fact referring to earthly languages, but this seems to be ruled out by the statement, "no one understands him". Not "no one in the church," just "no one." As for the passage in 1 Corinthians 14:26 - 28, that too seems to be referring to unknown heavenly language - it's again possible that that's not the case, but one wonders why it's necessary for God to give the supernatural gift of interpretation to interpret earthly languages?

As for the assertion that the tongues (and other supernatural gifts) have ceased, all I've ever come across in Scripture is verses saying that God's given the gifts in the first place, none saying that they stopped after a certain time. The John McArthur reference to 2 Corinthians 12:12 is a bit tortuous in its logic, since the verse says "The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverance." It doesn't say (as you seem to interpret it" that the sole purpose of signs was to authenticate an apostle, just that a purpose of signs was to authenticate an apostle.

And the stuff about Israel I didn't understand at all, but then I'm not really up to speed on dispensational theology. :confused:

David.
 
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Iosias

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David Brider said:
In my studies, I've found at least four uses of the gift of tongues:

1.) A sign for unbelievers (as per Acts 2)
2.) Edification of self
3.) Communication with God (for 2 & 3, see 1 Corinthians 14:2 - 5)
4.) Edification of the church (1 Corinthians 14:26 - 28)
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:2 -
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue - This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language. The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter, yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him.
Speaketh not unto men - Does not speak so that people can understand him. His address is really not made to people, that is, to the church. He might have this faculty without being able to speak to the edification of the church. It is possible that the power of speaking foreign languages and of prophesying were sometimes united in the same person; but it is evident that the apostle speaks of them as different endowments, and they probably were found usually in different individuals.

But unto God - It is as if he spoke to God. No one could understand him but God. This must evidently refer to the addresses "in the church," when Christians only were present, or when those only were present who spoke the same language, and who were unacquainted with foreign tongues. Paul says that "there" that faculty would be valueless compared with the power of speaking in a manner that should edify the church. He did not undervalue the power of speaking foreign languages when foreigners were present, or when they went to preach to foreigners; see
1Co_14:22. It was only when it was needless, when all present spoke one language, that he speaks of it as of comparatively little value.

For no man understandeth him - That is, no man in the church, since they all spoke the same language, and that language was different from what was spoken by him who was endowed with the gift of tongues. As God only could know the import of what he said, it would be lost upon the church, and would be useless.

Howbeit in the Spirit - Although, by the aid of the Spirit, he should, in fact, deliver the most important and sublime truths. This would doubtless be the case, that those who were thus endowed would deliver most important truths, but they would be "lost" upon those who heard them, because they could not understand them. The phrase "in the Spirit," evidently means "by the Holy Spirit," that is, by his aid and influence. Though he should be "really" under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and though the important truth which he delivers should be imparted by his aid, yet all would be valueless unless it were understood by the church.

He speaketh mysteries - unknowns


 
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SpiritPsalmist

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AV1611 said:
Not at all...I have read many books on this issue from both sides and in doing so and checking their claims against scripture and much prayer I have concluded that the cessationist is correct. Need I remind you that cessationism was the major doctrine taught up until only recently and that the pentecostal movement started due to an experience a women had. It was not Biblically based but experienced based!
Oh really? Recently as in when? Major Doctrine???? Really???? Taught by whom? Who was the woman? And. . .can you prove it? I know it could not be as recently as less than 20 yrs ago. You are basing your view's on experience too. . .the experience of nothing. You've experience nothing in regards to tongues so you've concluded that tongues is nothing. Appariently you've only read the history books of the cessationiast's.
 
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In my studies, I've found at least four uses of the gift of tongues:

1.) A sign for unbelievers (as per Acts 2)
2.) Edification of self
3.) Communication with God (for 2 & 3, see 1 Corinthians 14:2 - 5)
4.) Edification of the church (1 Corinthians 14:26 - 28)

Also, these passages appear to refer to two types of tongues - known earthly languages (as per Acts 2) and unknown heavenly languages languages (1 Corinthians 14:2 - 5). It's possible that the latter passage is in fact referring to earthly languages, but this seems to be ruled out by the statement, "no one understands him". Not "no one in the church," just "no one." As for the passage in 1 Corinthians 14:26 - 28, that too seems to be referring to unknown heavenly language - it's again possible that that's not the case, but one wonders why it's necessary for God to give the supernatural gift of interpretation to interpret earthly languages?

I would agree with this analysis of the scriptural references to tongues. It is possible that the two corinthian passages refer to an "heavenly tongue", but they could also be a known language. A case can be made either way. I have looked at these passages again and again and can't see that a forceful case can be made for either interpretation to the exclusion of the other.

However, even if they do refer to a language not known on earth, it does seem to be recognized by the apostle as a particular language. All that we can say of the sounds today referred to as tongues is that they are unintelligable. They cannot be translated by linguists and do sound like gibberish. We don't know that they are a heavenly language. So while the possibility does exist that one form of biblical tongues
was an unknown tongue (that is...not an earthly language), there is no way to tell that the sounds used today are in fact that biblical unknown tongue. The practicioners of such have to just assume that the noises they are making are one and the same as the biblical tongue, which may or may not be an unknown tongue.

In fact, doesn't it seem likely that angels may not need a vocal language at all?
 
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I have a friend who after waking from surgery was approached by the nurse and asked where he learned Hebrew. He told her he did not know Hebrew. She then informed him that while under anesthetic and being operated on, he spoke fluently in Hebrew, proclaiming the works of God to the Jewish doctor who understood every single word.

Not for today????? I say, yes. . .it is for today!!!! :) I speak in tongues all the time. It's between me and God and I am greatly incouraged in my spirit as a result. Just like the scriptures say.
 
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