Speaking in Tounges

[phnx]

On a sidenote here i just got back from an amazing christian festival in the UK.

It had about 4,000 christians there and 1/3 of the 5-10 year olds starting speaking in tongues!

Stuff like that makes me believe that it is truly a gift from God.

 

[Iosias]

Was it the Keswick Convention?

Stuff like that makes me believe that it is truly a gift from God.

Why?

 

[Yebo]

Greetings from a sunny South Africa

Really? Which qualifications do you meet? I’m being very serious here, because you make a very serious claim. There are only two types of Apostles – real and false.

Please indicate to me the qualifications to be a real Apostle?

From what I could gather, an APOSTLE is: apoástoáloás, ap-os´-tol-os; from 649; a delegate; spec. an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ["apostle"] (with miraculous powers):— apostle, messenger, he that is sent. apostolos (652) is, lit., "one sent forth" (apo, "from," stello, "to send").

The word "apostle" is commonly used to describe the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus for "special training". A wider approach will include Paul as well, based on the fact that he (Paul) had a one-on-one with Jesus on the road to Damascus. However there is a much wider/liberal outlook as well and that is you qualify to be an apostle based on obedience in a unique personal relationship with Christ.

Paul however gave us some insight into the "qualifications and requirements" to be an apostle. He wrote in Rom 1:1 that an apostle must be a servant of Jesus Christ and called to be an apostle, in 1 Cor 1:1, Eph 1:1 and 2Tim 1:1 called through the will of God, in Gal 1:1 chosen not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, in 1 Tim 1:1 by the commandment of God our Saviour Christ, which is our hope and in *** 1:1 Paul wrote the following, "Paul a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness"

It is my submission that to be an apostle you must be a servant of Jesus Christ and called to be a messenger. By merely accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour do not qualify you as an apostle. Your obedience to the voice of the Lord in what He requires you to do, "qualifies" you to be an apostle. In Mat 28:19 Jesus said: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations," and in verse 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you ..."By acknowledging and doing just this we all became apostles and not merely by the laying up of hands.

Where does the power to be complete come from? The Scriptures.

No scripture (LOGOS word) can make me or you or anyone complete. Only Jesus (RHEMA word) can. No LOGOS word ever had and never will have any power.

] I actually have an open mind, and I’m waiting for you to heal my leg…If you could do that, I would believe you – this is after all what the miracles were even given for (Mark 16:20).

[/font]

Aggie03, you should know that not Riverpastor, nor anyone else can heal you. It is only our Lord Jesus Christ that can heal. He is the Healer and not the individual. Mark 16:20 indicates "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." It is clear from this scripture that the Lord is confirming the word with signs and not those send out. Your intention should rather to have faith as well as an open mind to allow the Lord to heal your leg.

When discussing miracles the focus must not be on the type or even classification of the miracle, but rather on the fact that He still performs miracles through us. Should He not perform miracles anymore, then God is a liar because He said His name is "I AM THAT I AM" (Ex 3:14). This reveals God as the Being who is absolutely self-existent and who, in Himself, possesses essential life and permanent existence and not being confined to time. He simply can not help himself to constantly perform miracles and it is us (human beings) that define them as miracles in the past, present or even future.




Be BLESSED by the BEST and stay within the confinements of PEACE

 

[tesnusxenos]

No scripture (LOGOS word) can make me or you or anyone complete. Only Jesus (RHEMA word) can. No LOGOS word ever had and never will have any power.

Yebo, I dont disagree with your whole post but only this line.

In the beggining was the Word (logos) and the Word was with God and the Word (logos) was God. John 1:1
and the Word (logos) became flesh and made his dwelling among us and we have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only who came from the father . John 1:14

seems to indicate that Jesus is not just the Rhema word but also Logos. And Jesus has power whatever form he takes!

 

[phnx]

Was it the Keswick Convention?


Why?

Well firstly i believe that everything we get in life is a gift from God. Other than that i can't see how all these little kids could possibly speak like that unless they were given it as a blessing from God. I can't see how they could exactly fake something like that.

 

[Iosias]

Other than that i can't see how all these little kids could possibly speak like that unless they were given it as a blessing from God. I can't see how they could exactly fake something like that.

They could have been encouraged to 'speak in tongues' by adults. They could just be copying adults or each other. Or more serious...it may very well have been Satanic. Before you reply angrily that in no way could it have been satanic answer me on thing: Why not?

And if I may ask...What were they saying?

 

[aggie03]

Well firstly i believe that everything we get in life is a gift from God. Other than that i can't see how all these little kids could possibly speak like that unless they were given it as a blessing from God. I can't see how they could exactly fake something like that.

Well, most people don't believe that they're faking it, for one thing. I doubt that these small children got together and conspired malignantly to put on a babbling contest and pass it off as speaking in tongues - I would imagine that's the farthest thing from their minds. However, their sincerety does not make their actions true or according to the Scritpures or from God.

I have been to a place where this same thing happened, only it was just one lady, and I doubt that she was trying to fool anyone. But again, her sincerety does not make her true, and what she did goes directly against the Scriptures because in 1 Corinthians 14 it tells the women to be silent in regards to speaking in the assembly (1 Corinthians 14:34). She broke that command given by Paul which was a commandment of the Lord (1 Corinthians 14:37). Even if her speaking was true, even if, she wasn't doing it the way that God has commanded.

However, this also brings us back to the point that "tongues" are just languages, not some form of "baby talk" (for lack of a better phrase - if anyone has one, please let me know ). An unknown tongue was simply a language that the people didn't know. Swahili is an "unknown tongue" to me.

One thing I did notice in this instance that I witnessed was that this was a very emotional woman, and the man who was talking was delivering a particularly emotional address - a rational observer would have come to the following conclusion: she was having an emotional outburst and not really speaking a language, but rather, babbling.

The reasons for this are:

1. She was emotional in a gathering where the speaker was trying to encite people to a very strong emotional reaction.

2. She did not speak a word until the emotional climax had been reached.

3. She was not speaking to the audience or anyone in particular, but rather just shouting into the air.

4. She kept repeating similar things over and over.

5. When she "attempted" to translate what she said for everyone, the same phrase could have entirely different meanings. For example: "vashida vashida vashida" one time meant "The Lord is anointing the congregation with His love and His spirit" - and only a few seconds later "vashida vashida vashida" meant "The Lord would have us pray and fast for the preacher." This is just an example - it was amazing how many different things "vashida vashida vashida" meant.

I don't doubt that she was sincere - at leat she sounded like it - but her sincerety did not make what she did right, and it does not prove anything. When I compare this experience with what I find in the Scriptures about speaking in different languages, this could not have been an instance of that - even though she was sincere.

 

[Thunderchild]

The ability to communicate in a language unknown to the speaker (whether a language of humans or of angels) is cited in the Bible as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible also declares that it is possible to counterfeit the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible further declares the means by which to identify forgeries - eg. They are not accompanied by fruits of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Tongues is a spiritual gift, one of which God hasn't given me.

Does it disappoint me? No
Would I be happy to have it? Of course!

Guidlines for tongues can be found in 1 Cor 12, 13 and 14. If the tongues are being used in conflict to any of these 3 chapters, I would seriously question the validity and rightness of using them.

Anyone who says that the people who have the Holy Spirit in them MUST speak in tongues is telling you a lie, and should be convicted by their Christian brothers and sisters. If they challenge your Christian walk because you don't speak in tongues, then they are also not of God, and are not behaving in a Christlike manner.

I have the Holy Spirit in me, and I don't speak in tongues. I was forced to as a child at a church, in front of the entire church, and continued to do so, because 'it was the right thing to do'. However noone ever interpreted them, and I felt like a fake.

Now, if I pray in the spirit, it is through silent prayer for someone. It is then that my spiritual gifts begin to show themselves - those of prophecy, discernment and compassion.

Just my opinion, backed up in the Word.

Sascha

 

[James1979]

I just wanted to make a commment. We know in 1 Corinthians 14:22 tongues is considered as a sign. "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe." Tongues is plural more than one, so it must be an earthly language as it was introduced in the book of Acts. Also check this out, this is for everyone.

In Deutreronomy 13:1 KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, of a dreamer of dream, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou has not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all your soul

4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Verse 1 it has a reference to 2 Thess. 2:9

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Verse 3 it has a reference to 1 Corin. 11:19

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Verse 5 it has a reference to 1 Corin. 5:13

But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

This is in my King Jame Version Bible. These are some pretty serious scriptures. I would suggest that you check the bible carefully and see if tongues are for today.

James

 

[Ave Maria]

Yes, speaking in tongues is really a gift and I believe it exists today as well.

 

[riverpastor]

Hey aggie03. Good to see you this morning.

I purposely stayed away for a few days because, I must admit, I was getting frustrated. Just at the whole debate here. I honestly am discussing these things with the best intentions as well. We are both sincere.

I think the whole issue for me here is experiencing what the Bible says that others experienced when it was written.

I want to discuss this with you briefly, then answer the Apostleship thing.

I know you read the experience analogy of the bungee jumping thing and am glad you did.

The only thing I can say is that I have experienced something in God that maybe someone else hasn't. And for that "someone else" to come and tell me that I haven't or that I can't, is like telling the guy who's hanging upside down on the bungee cord waiting to get pulled back up that it's impossible.

Too late. Already did it.

I understand, now, the scriptures in the context of experience as well. Not just the theology of the scripture itself. If you'll bear with me, what I am saying is that before I experienced God spiritually and in such ways, that I only had a limited UNDERSTANDING of those scriptures. But along with the experince, now my UNDERSTANDING has broadened to understand more depth of the scripture concerning the experience.

Apostleship:
I am no Apostle. I am a Pastor/Teacher. Can I prove that by scripture? No. It is something that God spoke to me directly about. You spent a lot of time making a point about false apsotleship and the like.

My point was, and I'm still saved by Grace through faith, is that if the scripture states that only an apostle can lay hands on someone to receive the gift of the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, then by my experience of having laid hands on folks and them speaking in other tongues would, by bearing witness to the scripture, prove that I am an apostle.

But I am not. I am just a vessel. And through this vessel, the power and Presence of God manifests and flows. I have an obligation to yield to the Holy Spirit. I have a right to yield to the Holy Spirit. I desire to yield to the Holy Spirit. I will continue to yield to the Holy Spirit.

As far as your leg is concerned. I will pray for your leg. Of the people that I have seen healed through the operating of the power and Presence of God in me and through me, they all came by faith to receive. They believed that they would receive. And they received. I've seen tumors instantly dissolve. I've see the deaf hear. I've seen diseases dispelled.

Does everyone I pray for get healed? No. Does everyone who asks for prayer for healing have faith? No. Does everyone expect to receive? Not necessarily.

I cannot determine whether you will have faith and an expectancy to trust and receive.

But I will pray. That's my obligation. Simply because you are my brother and asked for it. To me, I am angered that your body has been invaded with something that is less than God's will for your health.

Truly blessings and peace to you, my brother.

 

[riverpastor]

One thing that I'll add is that it takes Rhema and Logos together to make us "complete".

Colossians 2:10 - And ye are complete in him (Jesus), which is the head of all principality and power...​

I John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record (witness) in heaven; the Father, the Word and the Spirit.

Yes, I know that Logos is the word for WORD above. Jesus is the Word (Logos) made flesh.

There is 100% agreement between the Father, the Spirit and the Son.

 

[Yebo]

Greetings from a sunny South Africa

I do not quite understand what you are driving at here...could you please expand simply.

I merely trying to say that 1Cor 13:8 are being utilised to indicate that tongues, prophecies ceased/passed away based on the perfect that has come. The same verse also indicates that knowledge will also cease.

When Paul wrote that specific "verse", he used the word "gnosis" which was translated to KNOWLEDGE. I simply took my Oxford dictionary to see what the word KNOWLEDGE means and that replaced the word KNOWLEDGE with the definition.

A person that argues that tongues and prophecies passed away based on 1 Cor 13:8 must then be consistent in the argument and also state that KNOWLEDGE passed away. By explaining it this way, it is very clear that KNOWLEDGE did not cease at this point, hence neither tongues nor prophecies can be regarded as ceased/passed away.

Be BLESSED by the BEST and stay within the confinements of PEACE

 

[aggie03]

Hmmm, anyone seen Jesus around lately? He is the only thing I know of that is "perfect"

You seem to be indicating that you believe the word "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13 means "without sin", or "without blemish". If this your definition then you must also define the phrase "in part" as contrasting with this definition of "perfect", because this is what Paul has done.

In this case then, we would be forced to define the phrase "in part" as "with sin" or "with blemish". This is absolutly necessary in order to maintain the integrity of the passage. If this is true, then this is how the passage would read:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 ASV

Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. (9) For we know in part [with sin], and we prophesy in part [with sin]; (10) but when that which is perfect [without sin] is come, that which is in part [with sin] shall be done away.

The original text is in blue, the definitions are in red. If what you are putting forward for the definition is true, then practicing spiritual gifts, or manifestations of the Spirit, are "with sin". In other words, if you're speaking in tongues, you're sinning.

This is the logical conclusion that must be reached in order to maintain the integrity of the passage with the definition that you have put forward. I would suggest that the word perfect here does not carry with it a connotation of being without sin, because it refers to something that cannot sin - the word of God.

In this case, the word "perfect" would merely mean "complete" or "whole". With this understanding, when the whole revelation of God's word becomes available, then the things which are "in part" or "incomplete" are no longer needed and therefore done away with. This makes much more sense that what you are suggesting.

 

[Faithful-Frank]

Tongues will end when when everything is known that can be known, and all prophecies have been fulfilled. I Cor. 13:8

 

[Iosias]

Tongues will end when when everything is known that can be known, and all prophecies have been fulfilled. I Cor. 13:8

First Corinthians does not say that! It states that knowledge and prophesy will end when the perfect comes!

 

[Cjwinnit]

I'm sorry to admit that I'm skeptical about people speaking in tongues...

 

[Iosias]

I'm skeptical about people speaking in tongues...

And rightly so!

 

[Samuel777]

i just entered this thread and i'll admit that i haven't read through all of the posts so i'm sorry if i become repeat things already mentioned.

i do believe in speaking in tongues and although i don't have this spritual gift i am seeking it. here are some good verses that i have found relating to tongues and praying in the spirit.

And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Joel 2:28



And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues. Mark 16:17



He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38-39





For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:5

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Acts 1:8



They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that seperated to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the spirit enabled them.

Acts 2:3-4



After they prayed, the place where meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. Acts 4:31



And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. Ephesians 6:18



For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 1 Cor 14:14-15