Speaking in tounges ONLY evidence of salvation?

[Sephania]

Wonderful story wags, yes, I do believe HaShem still does miracles today! Those who found you might very well have been angels sent there to lead you out, so it wouldn't at all surprise me that you understood them. How amazing to have this experience!

 

[Sephania]

well, no she didn't say this. what she said, if i can relate it clearly, is that many people misunderstand this passage as if the apostles were talking in the languages of the pilgrims directly, when in fact it is not so. She pointed out that the Greek workds used for "tongues" and the Greek word used for "languages" (see the verses in my above post to see them in use) are actually DIFFERENT words, meaning that the pilgrims were listening to the apostles praise God in tongues (heavenly languages unknown to man) but interpreted them (see the gift of interpretation here) in their OWN language. This happens in a church service when someone prophesies/preaches in tongues and someone interprets for them. If I was in a Hispanic church where this happened, it would be interpreted in Spanish (not English! hehe)...
is that at all clear? it was kind of confusing when she tried to explain it to me.

Yes I understand what she is saying, and she is correct, two different words exist in this matter that are translated to "tongues", lets look at that.

Glossa - Greek word translated as "tongue":

1. the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2. a tongue
   1. the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire,and it sat upon each of them.

This 'tongues' I would say would fall under the #1 definition

2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,and began to speak with other tongues,as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This would fall under definition #2

2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

'Dialektos' - Greek word translated to English - 'Language'

1. conversation, speech, discourse, language
2. the tongue or language peculiar to any people

This is the only time that the KJV choose to translate this as 'language', the 4 other times it is used it was translated as, guess what? 'Tongues'. Perhaps it was because only two lines away ( verse 8) the same word in Greek was used so they wanted to show a difference.

2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born ?

You can see by this two things:

1. this same Greek word 'Dialektos' is used here in verse 8 as was used in verse 6 but in verse 8 it is translated as "language"
2. Their amazment comes not from the fact that they were hearing and interpreting but that the uneducated Galalians were speaking to them in their own language, not a spiritual one that they were given the power to translate.


We get our English word "dialect" from the Greek word Dialektos, which can also be interpreted as something akin to Cockney being a dialect of English.

NOTE: Click on the underlined purple words above and it will verify this with the concordance of Strongs.


Also there is the problem of verse 37/38

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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do ? [/font]2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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As can be seen by this they had not been gifted already, for you must repent first before receiving any gifts of the Spirit.

~Z~

 

[beej7]

I don't have my Bible with me, but I think in Jude it says that we should build ourselves up in our most holy faith, praying in tongues to strengthen us. I'm sure it's in Jude, I'm not sure I have quoted correctly. Having had most of my experiences in the L-rd in Charismatic or Pentecostal Churches, I have always been taught and always believed that speaking in tongues was evidence of the Baptism in the Spirit, and that particular body and spirit building gift was available to all. And like any gift, we are not compelled to use it, but it is there for each of us. I've never heard of it said as evidence of salvation, but logically it could go to that---you wouldn't be baptised in the Spirit if you weren't saved...
Billie

 

[Shimshon]

That was exactly what I had found as well. The usage of the two are interwoven. They are far from DIFFERENT. And I would suspect that in the original language SPOKEN they would have refered to just what you indicated. A DIALECT. Not the 'heavenly' jibber jabber it is thought to be today.

 

[Blueskies]

Phew...another bullet dodged. Frankly, I hear this a lot, and I'm skeptical about the absolute way that it is used. I am a most spirit filled person, and have many great revelations. My baptism in the spirit was exciting, but I didn't speak in tongues, nor was it stressed at the time of my salvation. I've never questioned my salvation due to lack of speaking in tongues, and I hope no one minds terribly if I don't start now.

Shalom!

Blue

 

[Sephania]

The Ruach is not limited in only this way of manifesting himself to the believers. If it is required, then I would say this is a requirement of men and not HaShem, and who do you put your trust in?

 

[Sephania]

I don't have my Bible with me, but I think in Jude it says that we should build ourselves up in our most holy faith, praying in tongues to strengthen us. I'm sure it's in Jude, I'm not sure I have quoted correctly. Having had most of my experiences in the L-rd in Charismatic or Pentecostal Churches, I have always been taught and always believed that speaking in tongues was evidence of the Baptism in the Spirit, and that particular body and spirit building gift was available to all. And like any gift, we are not compelled to use it, but it is there for each of us. I've never heard of it said as evidence of salvation, but logically it could go to that---you wouldn't be baptised in the Spirit if you weren't saved...
Billie

Yes, verse 20


But you dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith,and pray in union with the Ruach HaKodesh.


I take this to mean that this is not a "tongue thing" rather we are to pray in G-ds will. Not what we what or what we understand, but allow him to use us as a vessel to pray through so things may be done in an orderly way.

 

[1vel]

I think that is why many people who have indeed received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit have never spoken in tongues. They weren't taught that it is something you yield to and participate in. They are led to believe that God will just "take you over" and "make you say things".

This is exactly what I have always thought. I have always been troubled by the use/lack of use of tounges. I have never personally witnessed it. Beause I was taught that it should "just happen' if it was going to, and I was confused because it NEVER happened in any of the churches I attended. Thank you for putting it this way.

One other thought and then I will shut up. Paul admonishes us to build ourselves up in our most holy faith by praying in the spirit (tongues). He doesn't say, "Those few of you with this gift should...". That's why I think that private tongues are for EVERY believer who is Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

That makes sense.




Thanks.

 

[debi b]

Shalom everyone.

For the purposes of this forum we have to define a few things. To have the scrolls icon and thereby identified as a messianic:

a) Messianic: A religious/faith group, of Jews and non-Jews, that believes and follows the Mosaic covenant (Torah) given by G-d to all the Jews and also believes in Yeshua of Natzeret as the Jewish Messiah, G-d (HaShem) and deliver of all peoples.

If you do not have the scrolls icon you are considered non-messianic.

3) Non-Messianic Posts: Non-Messianic members (eg. Protestant, Catholic, Non-Messianic Jewish members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Messianic Judaism doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Messianic members. Any debate or apologetic posts, as well as efforts to answer questions about Messianic Judaism by Non-Messianic members will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum (or other appropiate forum) and warnings will be issued. In other words, only Messianic members can debate, answer questions about Messianic Judaism or engage in apologetics here.

Please keep this in mind when posting. Thank you.

 

[plum]

I hope I haven't broken this. I didn't see it as a question about Messianic Judaism, but if it was, then I have broken the rules. My humble appologies

 

[visionary]

I have had experiences with the Holy Spirit, though none of them have been via speaking in tongues. I have had the Lord witness through me, and it was a wonderful experience to be involved in, yet there was not speaking in tongues. I have been taken up in the spirit, and yet no speaking in tongues that I know of. I have been given visions, but still no speaking in tongues.

I believe in the gift of tongues and believe that if someone of another language needs the gospel truth spoken to them, I will be able to witness to them in my language and they will hear in theirs, because that is the gift of tongues. It would also be the gift of tongues if the Lord decides that I speak another language, but I beleive the Lord will not have me speak that which I do not understand. If I speak in another language I will also be given the gift of understanding that language.

So do I doubt that I have the gift of the Holy Spirit, because I do not yet speak in tongues???? No, absolutely not....I would rather have the gifts of discernment, the gift of knowledge, the gift of wisdom, the gift of healing, gifts that are good for my soul and those around me.

 

[plum]

I would rather have the gifts of discernment, the gift of knowledge, the gift of wisdom, the gift of healing, gifts that are good for my soul and those around me.

I think that all of the gifts of the Spirit are made for the continuation of Yeshua'S ministry on earth, so ALL of them should be good for serving the Church and your community And it is good to desire these gifts from G-d! I was once called selfish for desiring more from the L-rd. But when it's not for our glory or our pride, but for G-d... I see no wrong in that one bit I'm with you there, visionary.

 

[Dr. Shon]

I think I broke the rules. Sorry.

 

[Sophie The Questioner]

Shalom

Speaking in tongues is certainly a gift of the spirit, just not the only one. I will testify having once sat at a christian meeting. None knew any hebrew and certainly none knew any cryptic tongues used by some older hebrew sects. So I was very surprised once when I heard someone clearly say a whole passage in the spoken form of the Chochma Machazeh. The speaking of this was obviously a gift, my ability to translate it was however learned, so that may not count in the same way. But the divine gift of translation in many cases is a gift, as would be the gift of discernment, and the gift of wisdom, the gift of healing and so on.

I think what I am saying is that that if everyone just spoke in tongues there would be no one to translate, save those who may by chance be aware of the tongue being spoken. At the time of this rather curious event I mention, I was quite ill, and recieved healing from someone else. What i heard in CM would have been rendered meaningless had I not recieved healing from someone else. Yeshua gives us gifts according to his purpose, meaning that the gifts, may or may not be a sign of salvation, (Just because I know an obscure hebrew ritual language does not make me saved) but for sure walking with Yeshua is salvation.

But I felt led to say this because really, If someone wrote on the wall in pre akkadian cunieform, complete with correct phonetic pronunciation while speaking it. If the meaning was not there, such as a healing, or a lesson of wisdom or if no one understood a word of it (I would have difficulty as cunieform is not my strong point) or if no one was given the gift of translation by Gd, it would be meaningless.

Speaking in tongues is not a qualification, it is but one facet of getting to know Gd, there are many facets that work with each other.

Sophie

 

[Yhudah]

I've been looking for a messianic synogogue in my area, and found one an hour and a half away.

I was reading over the statement of faith, and was suprised when they said that salvation was evidenced by speaking in tounges.

My take on tounges is that it is A manifestation of the spirit, but not THE manifestation.

My understanding is that if one speaks in tounges, if it is from God, someone will ALWAYS be able to interpret it.

Am I wrong?

Shalom.

Firstly, this is what I believe and why I believe what I believe.

I believe by perfect faith that the Holy One, blessed be He, desires that all His children appropriate and internalize the power and fullness of His gracious Spirit.

I believe in the baptism in the Ruach HaKodesh as being a gift from HaShem as promised by Yeshua the Messiah to all believers, and is received subsequent to the New Birth (Matt. 3:11; John 14:15; Acts 1:8; 2:38, 39).

I believe the gift of tongues is one of many manifestations of the Ruach HaKodesh (Acts 2:4; 19:1-7; 1 Cor. 12:1: ch. 14).

I believe in the operation of all the gifts of the Ruach HaKodesh as enumerated in HaShem's Word.

I embrace the complete ministry of the Ruach HaKodesh (Rom. 12; 1 Cor. 12:1-13.


Now, as for your question.

For my part, I would have to disagree with the statement of faith at the shul (synagogue) you visited. In being they believe that evidence of salvation is speaking in tongues. I would have to disagree with that for reasons I do not see that in Scripture.

However, what I do see in Scripture is that speaking in tongues is scriptural evidence that a believer in Yeshua has received the baptism in the Ruach HaKodesh.

That I do see in Scripture, and as already stated above. I see in Scripture that the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh from HaShem as promised by Yeshua the Messiah is for all believers and is received subsequent to the New Birth (see Matt. 3:11; John 14:15; Acts 1:8; 2:38, 39).

As for you question about whether or not someone has need to always give interpretation of a tongue spoken, if it is from God.

Yes, that would be true if one were to speak aloud publicly instead of quietly speaking or praying to one's self in a congregational meeting.

There are reasons for it, but I am not going to take time to go into all that now. But I may later if I see you have more interest in knowing more about all that as for what the Scriptures say about it.

A person who have received the baptism in the Ruach HaKodesh with the Scriptural evidence of speaking in tongues can speak or pray in tongues at will any time they chose to do so.

For my part, I seldom will ever speak or to pray in other tongues publicly, but only in my private in my prayer times, and I have been doing it now for more than twenty years. And in part or much the reason I do is because often in situations I do not always know how I should pray as I should.

Moreover, it does require much faith to pray in tongues.

I came to in believe in Yeshua being the Messiah, and accepted Yeshua as Lord, and as God our Savior in 1983, and very soon thereafter I received the baptism in the Ruach HaKodesh with the scriptural evidence of speaking in tongues before any body was able to talk me out of it. (Smiling)


May the Ruach HaKodesh rest upon you and give you shalom.

Yehuda

 

[koilias]

So I was very surprised once when I heard someone clearly say a whole passage in the spoken form of the Chochma Machazeh. The speaking of this was obviously a gift, my ability to translate it was however learned, so that may not count in the same way. But the divine gift of translation in many cases is a gift, as would be the gift of discernment, and the gift of wisdom, the gift of healing and so on.

Shalom Sophie! Certainly it was a gift that you were there. It's what happened at Shavuot in Acts 2. From what I know of you, you have the gift of wisdom.

...So when are you going to teach us a little about this CM?

Shalom,

Eric

 

[1vel]

Yehuda;

Thanks for your post. As a Baptist/COC (upbringing), tounges wasn't really discussed and was just something that 'happened in other religions' or so it seemed. This aspect of the gifts/manifestations of the Holy Spirit has been coming up again and again in my worship and fellowship experiences. I am just beginning to see that I need to spend some time about this in prayer.

Since I originally posted my question, I went back to the web site for the synagogue
we plan to visit next week and I think I was just taken by suprise on my first reading of the statement of Faith. I don't think they are saying that it is the ONLY evidence, but one of the evidences.

Again, thank you for your response.

Blessings;

Vel

 

[Yhudah]

As a Baptist/COC (upbringing), tounges wasn't really discussed and was just something that 'happened in other religions' or so it seemed.

This aspect of the gifts/manifestations of the Holy Spirit has been coming up again and again in my worship and fellowship experiences.

I am just beginning to see that I need to spend some time about this in prayer.

Since I originally posted my question, I went back to the web site for the synagogue we plan to visit next week and I think I was just taken by suprise on my first reading of the statement of Faith.

I don't think they are saying that it is the ONLY evidence, but one of the evidences.

Of course, theology varies as much or near as much in the Messianic movement as it does in more traditional forms of Christianity.

You would do well of course, to check doctrinal statements or statements of faith, but sometimes even doing that is not enough.

As for the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and the gifts of the Spirit, some believe it and some don't.

You said, that this subject has been coming up a lot in your worship and fellowship.

Do you mean it the local Baptist church you attend?


Be bless as you seek to bless others!

Yehuda

 

[1vel]

Yehuda;

Hi there!

Actually, we've been all over the place as Chrisitans. We left the Baptist church obout a year ago, and have been worshipping here and there.

My Uncle is a Pentecostal minister, and I went to one of his services a couple of weeks ago. He was also talking about how the first believers spoke in tounges and this was evidence of the Holy Spirit. I agree. However, I was a little hung up on whether or not he meant this was the ONE thing that evidenced the Holy Spirit. Then, I went to the website for the synod that we plan to visit, and they mentioned it too. It's just been on my mind a lot, that's all. I feel like there's a lesson for me here, and I just havn't gotten it yet.

There have been a lot of revalations I've been having lately with regard to my faith. I'm being drawn out of my traditional beliefs and customs and this is very challenging for me. Coming into the messianic faith is disconcerting, to say the least.(if I'm honest) With this said; I have faith. I have faith that God will not take me anywhere I should not be.

Blessings;

Vel

 

[By Grace]

Hi, Vel!

I knew you had been in a Baptist church, but I didn't know you had COC background, too! I was raised COC. We have more and more in common...