Works are Intrinsic to Salvation

[timothyu]

The text (Jn 3:3-8) is in the Greek, which presents the meaning of its use of "wind;" i.e.

The Jews still refer to the HS as a guiding wind, not an errant one.

 

[Clare73]

The Jews still refer to the HS as a guiding wind, not an errant one.

We live in the NT, where the Scriptual language is Greek.

Nor does sovereign mean errant.

 

[timothyu]

We live in the NT, where the Scriptual language is Greek.

Shouldn't matter when Jesus and His immediate followers were Jewish. It speaks of what they knew, their culture, not what language a record was made of the time

 

[Clare73]

Shouldn't matter when Jesus and His immediate followers were Jewish. It speaks of what they knew, their culture, not what language a record was made of the time

And what they know, their culture is recorded in the Greek language, and that language is the meaning.

It matters when you apply a Jewish meaning to a NT Greek word, which has its own meaning, which is why it is used.

 

[timothyu]

It matters when you apply a Jewish meaning to a NT Greek word, which has its own meaning, which is why it is used.

Making the Hebrew meaning over in it's own image?

 

[Clare73]

Making the Hebrew meaning over in it's own image?

Which reveals your view of the NT word of God written, it being the completion of the OT word of God written.

 

[timothyu]

Which reveals your view of the NT word of God written, it being the completion of the OT word of God written.

While others view of the NT drew it away from the Gospel of the Kingdom

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you believe a person Jesus Christ died for, by His death alone, before, prior to any conversion experience, regeneration, and while they are yet still enemies dead in sin and unbelievers, is Justified forgiven and declared righteous before God ? Yes or No Thanks

No, if I understood you correctly. They are not justified (declared righteous) before they are regenerated.

 

[Brightfame52]

No, if I understood you correctly. They are not justified (declared righteous) before they are regenerated.

Well that certainly tells me you dont believe that the death of Christ alone Justified a person before God.

Secondly, you probably believe as most do, one isnt Justified before God until they are regenerated and exercise faith/ or believe. If that's the case, thats works.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well that certainly tells me you dont believe that the death of Christ alone Justified a person before God.

Secondly, you probably believe as most do, one isnt Justified before God until they are regenerated and exercise faith/ or believe. If that's the case, thats works.

How does that mean that the death of Christ alone does not justify a person before God?

And, no, the second is not the case.

 

[Brightfame52]

How does that mean that the death of Christ alone does not justify a person before God?

And, no, the second is not the case.

What you mean how ? Don't you know what you be talking about ? You said a person Christ died for isn't Justified before God without being regenerated. Now which comes first,, Christ death for one or their regeneration ?

And yes, to me the second seems to be the case.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What you mean how ? Don't you know what you be talking about ? You said a person Christ died for isn't Justified before God without being regenerated. Now which comes first,, Christ death for one or their regeneration ?

Your thinking here seems to me to be pretending rather than actually temporally locked. You would admit that a person did not become saved before they were born, right?, yet not only did Christ save them by dying for them before they were born, but God chose them from before the foundation of the world. So how is this any different? Christ's death justifies them, and saves them, but they are not justified nor saved until regenerated, in which they are given faith. The gift is grace, for by grace are we saved through faith. If you aren't even born yet, how can you be reborn?

But I don't think you are merely letting words play you. I think you are forcing them to play you.


Brightfame52 said:
Secondly, you probably believe as most do, one isnt Justified before God until they are regenerated and exercise faith/ or believe. If that's the case, thats works.
Mark Quayle said:
And, no, the second is not the case.

And yes, to me the second seems to be the case.

No.

I didn't say anything about "exercise faith/ or believe". As Eph 2 says, Salvation —which is by grace through faith— is not of ourselves; not of works.

Regeneration —which is the work of the Spirit of God, who generates that faith— is not of ourselves; not of works.

 

[Brightfame52]

mark

Your thinking here seems to me to be pretending rather than actually temporally locked. You would admit that a person did not become saved before they were born, right?, yet not only did Christ save them by dying for them before they were born, but God chose them from before the foundation of the world. So how is this any different? Christ's death justifies them, and saves them, but they are not justified nor saved until regenerated, in which they are given faith. The gift is grace, for by grace are we saved through faith. If you aren't even born yet, how can you be reborn?

But I don't think you are merely letting words play you. I think you are forcing them to play you.

No matter how you spin it, you admit that people Christ died for are not Justified before God based solely on the fact He died for them.

No.

I didn't say anything about "exercise faith/ or believe". As Eph 2 says, Salvation —which is by grace through faith— is not of ourselves; not of works.

Regeneration —which is the work of the Spirit of God, who generates that faith— is not of ourselves; not of works.

Okay then you believe one is Justified before God because of the good that is in them, even the work of the Spirit. You understand there is a difference between Christs work for a person like His death for them, and the Spirits work in a person ? You seem to by saying one is Justified before God based on a work in them by the Spirit, is that correct ? If so, that salvation by your spiritual graces in you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

mark



No matter how you spin it, you admit that people Christ died for are not Justified before God based solely on the fact He died for them.



Okay then you believe one is Justified before God because of the good that is in them, even the work of the Spirit. You understand there is a difference between Christs work for a person like His death for them, and the Spirits work in a person ? You seem to by saying one is Justified before God based on a work in them by the Spirit, is that correct ? If so, that salvation by your spiritual graces in you.

Oh, my goodness! Ok, maybe you've heard of "The Five Solas": Sola scriptura; Sola fide; Sola gratia; Solus Christus; Soli Deo gloria. Are you going to say there's a conflict there? The middle three deal directly with what we are talking about. But the other two are also part of it.

This is not a one-or-the-other thing. You can't have one without the other. You could get silly and say that they are justified solely on God's decision, which is also true, since nothing would have happened at all, Christ would not have died, but for God's decision.

 

[Clare73]

While others view of the NT drew it away from the Gospel of the Kingdom

Only the NT view matters.

 

[timothyu]

Only the NT view matters.

Which as Jesus said at least 72 times is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[Clare73]

Which as Jesus said at least 72 times is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Who's challenging the gospel?

 

[Brightfame52]

Oh, my goodness! Ok, maybe you've heard of "The Five Solas": Sola scriptura; Sola fide; Sola gratia; Solus Christus; Soli Deo gloria. Are you going to say there's a conflict there? The middle three deal directly with what we are talking about. But the other two are also part of it.

This is not a one-or-the-other thing. You can't have one without the other. You could get silly and say that they are justified solely on God's decision, which is also true, since nothing would have happened at all, Christ would not have died, but for God's decision.

No matter how you spin it the conclusion is still the same.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No matter how you spin it the conclusion is still the same.

Your conclusion, no doubt.

 

[Mark Quayle]

And what they know, their culture is recorded in the Greek language, and that language is the meaning.

It matters when you apply a Jewish meaning to a NT Greek word, which has its own meaning, which is why it is used.

Shouldn't matter when Jesus and His immediate followers were Jewish. It speaks of what they knew, their culture, not what language a record was made of the time

You seem to think that Jewish mindset, culture and use of language, terms, concepts etc had not been migrating in the years before Christ. You don't know what they thought, particularly when you judge it according to modern day.