SPEAKING IN TONGUES: Help make this the DEFINITIVE learning thread

[Presbyterian Continuist]

[/SIZE]
that is the truth as I see it...no personalization.....

We could continue debating the issue of tongues round and round ad infinitum because I don't think that we are going to find common ground in this. It doesn't mean that I don't respect you as a brother in Christ, but we are just not going to agree on it, are we? I think we have exhausted the topic. It doesn't mean that we cannot discuss other topics, and I am sure that our discussions will be interesting and stimulating. So, let's agree to disagree.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Can a deaf mute "speak in tongues"?

Amazingly there are records of deaf people speaking in tongues . . . and the normal muting of normal speech for them was suprising NOT present . . . as if they were speaking normally.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Can you explain this a little more; perhaps with an example of an "edification of the body of Christ".

Textual or anectdotal?

 

[zeke37]

If this is what is happening in Acts 2, how do you explain Acts 2:4 which says, those who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke with other languages and not, those who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in their own language, like the hypothetical example?

I must have read over that part of your post...sorry....
u r quite right, they spoke other langauges....
one Godly language, that was understood by all the vast different speaking/understanding hearers
as if it was a dialect from their own home town.

this is a bonified miracle of God f
or the direct purpose of furthering the truth
about the fulfillment of the Messiah...

these "cloven tongues like as of fire" cannot be faked,
as the charismatic tongue obviously can be

the other tongues were visible and audible

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

bottom line...does the charismatic practice stand up next to this text?
is it the same?
simply, no.

It is indeed splitting hairs . . . but it is needed. The contention is that the CONTENT of tongues IS presentation of the Gospel . . . ergo tongues are evangelistic . . . that is the position of MANY . . . and it is this position that we DO NOT HOLD. Reason: Tongues, as gifts of the Spirit, are for edification of the CHURCH . . . NOT REACHING THE LOST.

9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue(the actual tongue) words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue (language), my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (what is in his mind is not going to bear fruit to those listening if it is spoke in a langauge that the listeners cannot understand)
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. (same time...both with the Spirit and with understanding)
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
(so, the unlearned could be present...they better understand your tongue, or else they will NOT BE EDIFIED)
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues (languages) more than ye all:
19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue (language).
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues (languages)and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? (seems like evangelism to me, coming up)
24But if all prophesy (speak the understood, edifying Word of God about Messiah), and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue (language), hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (remember back in verse 17 where tongues does not edify???? of course that is if the tongue (language) is NOT translated
into a tongue (language) that the audience can understand,
which would turn the speakers words into prophesy to the audience.)



36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? (charismatics should heed this)
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Sure, in the overall scope of things, the mission of the church is to take back the lost and storm the gates of Hell . . . in that sense tongues CONTRIBUTE to the health of the BODY which then does evangelism . . . BUT if tongues are ONLY evangelism (or even STRICTLY evangelism) then the "prayer" "praise" "blessing" "singing" concepts that Paul attributes to tongues CANNOT BE. AND the direction of tongues in Acts 10 and 19 is THE WRONG DIRECTION (it would have been Peter and Paul, not the gentiles or disciples that spoke).

tongues means languages...simple...
the language/tongue can either be known or not known...
we use prayer and praise and song to help evangelize....why don't you?

We split this hair because those that contend tongues are for evangelistic purposes cannot support this in light of 1 Cor 12 which makes tongues for the purpose of EDIFICATION

evangelizing folks with the Good News
would be just about as edifying as one could get/give,
don't ya think?

1Cor12 defines the gift of tongues as diversities of languages...
and diverse kinds of languages,
that's plural.

1Cor12 speaks of the Body...GROWING the BODY is a part of Christianity
edifying the Body in truth is a part of Christianity

 

[ARBITER01]

Can you explain this a little more; perhaps with an example of an "edification of the body of Christ".

I'm not sure if there is a particular example of edification in action within scripture, but we can see how the teachings from scripture describe them,..

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Co 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1Co 14:12 So also ye, since ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may abound unto the edifying of the church.

1Co 14:26 What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each one hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

The two aspects of tongues are seen here, one of personal edification and the other of corporate edification in the assembly, but also the gift of prophecy as well as interpretation of tongues provide that edification. They are the edification gifts for that purpose.

 

[ARBITER01]

We could continue debating the issue of tongues round and round ad infinitum because I don't think that we are going to find common ground in this. It doesn't mean that I don't respect you as a brother in Christ, but we are just not going to agree on it, are we? I think we have exhausted the topic. It doesn't mean that we cannot discuss other topics, and I am sure that our discussions will be interesting and stimulating. So, let's agree to disagree.

That's the best thing to do with him Oscarr. This isn't about arguments.

 

[zeke37]

We could continue debating the issue of tongues round and round ad infinitum because I don't think that we are going to find common ground in this. It doesn't mean that I don't respect you as a brother in Christ, but we are just not going to agree on it, are we? I think we have exhausted the topic. It doesn't mean that we cannot discuss other topics, and I am sure that our discussions will be interesting and stimulating. So, let's agree to disagree.

no problem Bro...we'll have a cup of tea in NJ (not New Jersey)

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Textual or anectdotal?

Both.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Oscarr and some of the others: one issue that really bothers me with some who profess to speak in tongues is the elitism that creeps in- they seem to think they are closer to God, more mature or even "better" Christians.

This has been evident here in the discussion at times- but an even more blatant example is one I posted on another thread concerning a Christian school in Canada that partially bases a student's enrolment eligibility on whether their parent's belong to a Pentacostal or other charismatic church, and speak in tongues.

In my opinion, this is blatant elitism; and unfair yet, because a student is judged on the basis of their parent's actions.

A even more perturbing example is illustrated in the poll that was posted regarding speaking in tongues. Notice that of the 41 people who have responded to date, 4 (almost 10%) actually believe that whether a person can speak in tongues or not is a salvation issue! I'd like to know what scripture references they use to support this position.

Anyway, I would appreciate you and some of the others commenting on these issues- either in this thread, or the originally threads that I referenced and linked.

.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

None of you who profess to speak in tongues have agreed to submit your gift to any kind of verifiable test.

In the Bible, those who prophesied and those who healed were all able to have their gifts validated. Even today, there are Christians who question the authenticity of some of the televangelists who claim to heal- and demand medical proof in the apparent miracles that are performed.

Unlike prophesies and healings, speaking in tongues can be faked without earthly consequence- so I maintain there should be an even greater burden of responsibility to ensure that one who professes to speak in tongues does so in strict accordance with Biblical principles, and is not afraid to submit their gift to some manner of verifiable test; I mean, what are they afraid of- they either trust in God to help them validate their gift, or they don't.

I would guess that the Apostle Paul would have had no problem with such a test- even welcomed it to demonstrate his total trust in God.

.

 

[ARBITER01]

None of you who profess to speak in tongues have agreed to submit your gift to any kind of verifiable test.

In the Bible, those who prophesied and those who healed were all able to have their gifts validated. Even today, there are Christians who question the authenticity of some of the televangelists who claim to heal- and demand medical proof in the apparent miracles that are performed.

Unlike prophesies and healings, speaking in tongues can be faked without earthly consequence- so I maintain there should be an even greater burden of responsibility to ensure that one who professes to speak in tongues does so in strict accordance with Biblical principles, and is not afraid to submit their gift to some manner of verifiable test; I mean, what are they afraid of- they either trust in God to help them validate their gift, or they don't.

I would guess that the Apostle Paul would have had no problem with such a test- even welcomed it to demonstrate his total trust in God.

.

You had an explanation given you already about this request, but you are free to keep asking for things all you wish,....

 

[Paul.]

If this is what is happening in Acts 2, how do you explain Acts 2:4 which says, those who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke with other languages and not, those who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in their own language, like the hypothetical example?

they spoke other langauges....
one Godly language, that was understood by all the vast different speaking/understanding hearers
as if it was a dialect from their own home town.

What language do you believe the speakers heard themselves speak in, when they spoke this, one Godly language?

 

[zeke37]

their own language

 

[Sherha]

This was prophesied by the servant Joel, and fulfilled in Corinthians 12. But, first you must be born again: John 3:3-7.

 

[Paul.]

Zeke37, you seem to have come full circle.

If this is what is happening in Acts 2, how do you explain Acts 2:4 which says, those who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke with other languages and not, those who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in their own language, like the hypothetical example?

I must have read over that part of your post...sorry....
u r quite right, they spoke other langauges....
one Godly language, that was understood by all the vast different speaking/understanding hearers
as if it was a dialect from their own home town.

What language do you believe the speakers heard themselves speak in, when they spoke this, one Godly language?

their own language

You accept that when the disciples (which Acts 1:15 tells us was about 120 people) on the day of Pentecost spoke in tongues they spoke other languages because Acts 2:4 tells us specifically that those who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke with other languages, they did not speak in their own language.

Later on you assert that when the disciples spoke in tongues, they spoke in one Godly language but they heard themselves speak their own language. Hearing yourself speak in your own language when you speak, is the definition of speaking in your own language. It cannot equal speaking in another language and therefore contradicts Acts 2:4 which you agree with so in fact you end up contradicting yourself in order to hold onto the one Godly language understood by everyone idea.

Wouldn’t it be more correct to interpret the disciple speaking in tongues in Acts 2 as them actually speaking in the human languages the crowd actually heard? There were about 120 disciples in the upper room as previously mentioned and this means there could have been 120 human languages spoken by the disciples even though Acts 2:9-11 only lists 14 human languages or dialects. If the Holy Spirit changed the language spoken by each disciple about every five minutes, in a half hour period a total of over 700 different human languages could have been heard. This interpretation seems to fit the text and you will be glad to see it does not provide any proof that the Charismatic or Pentecostal practice of everyone speaking in tongues in church, in languages unknown to anyone else in the church service is a Biblical practice. Do you have any objections or questions about what I have said?

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Wouldn’t it be more correct to interpret the disciple speaking in tongues in Acts 2 as them actually speaking in the human languages the crowd actually heard? There were about 120 disciples in the upper room as previously mentioned and this means there could have been 120 human languages spoken by the disciples even though Acts 2:9-11 only lists 14 human languages or dialects. If the Holy Spirit changed the language spoken by each disciple about every five minutes, in a half hour period a total of over 700 different human languages could have been heard. This interpretation seems to fit the text and you will be glad to see it does not provide any proof that the Charismatic or Pentecostal practice of everyone speaking in tongues in church, in languages unknown to anyone else in the church service is a Biblical practice. Do you have any objections or questions about what I have said?

I certainly don't- I think you've described very well what I believe the Bible teaches on this subject.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

You had an explanation given you already about this request, but you are free to keep asking for things all you wish,....

I wouldn't exactly say the original question was answered very well- which is why I re-phrased the question and added some points, hoping that someone would provide a more defensible answer.

 

[ARBITER01]

I wouldn't exactly say the original question was answered very well- which is why I re-phrased the question and added some points, hoping that someone would provide a more defensible answer.

Well GOD's gifts are not given out to be oggled over like a circus act. If you want to see people misusing their gifts like the Corinthians, go to tbn. The prayer language is between GOD and us, and my desire to abide by scripture and what our Christian forefathers taught should be enough defense right there.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well GOD's gifts are not given out to be oggled over like a circus act. If you want to see people misusing their gifts like the Corinthians, go to tbn. The prayer language is between GOD and us, and my desire to abide by scripture and what our Christian forefathers taught should be enough defense right there.

I had an interesting thought today. How do we really know that the Corinthians in general actually misused the gifts of the Spirit, or was it just a few who needed to be brought back into line? I wonder how much is being read into the Scripture?

 

[Servant of Jesus]

I had an interesting thought today. How do we really know that the Corinthians in general actually misused the gifts of the Spirit, or was it just a few who needed to be brought back into line? I wonder how much is being read into the Scripture?

Or for that matter, that the misuse was serious enough to jeopardize their salvation.

If there is any doubt about how we should express our faith, I think none of us can go wrong if we follow the example of Jesus- he spoke boldly and sternly in places like the Jewish synagogue in Capernaum- but there is no mention of any theatrics. In His instructions as to how we should pray, He spoke plainly in the language of the region the Lord's prayer- no mention is made of using glossolalia.

Others can do what the Spirit moves them to do- as for me, I'll follow the example of our Lord when He walked on the earth.