SPEAKING IN TONGUES: Help make this the DEFINITIVE learning thread

[1611AV]

do you believe that God (in times past) used a charismatic prayer tongue, as we see today in charismatic churches,
or do you think the gift of tongues is something else, and not a charismatic prayer un-language?

No, I don't believe at all in the charismatic way. I believe from what I have read in the Bible that men spoke in their own language but was understood by people of all languages. But I admit I do not look into tongues in depth nor have I prayed for understanding here. So I can be way off here.

What I do know is tongues where used for a sign.

YW...btw, the 1611 KJV auth vers. is my fav.

Then you have the truth in your hands.

 

[zeke37]

i once asked a non-kjv person to tell me what Noah's son Ham's, sin was in Gen9,
and why Noah had gotten so mad at him...

the response was tradition, instead of finding the answer in "like wording" in Lev18

I think much of that has to do with all the different interpretations of the bible...



the reason I like the KJV is even when the translaters made an error,
or used a certain bunch of words to describe a thing,
they usually stay with that interp all the way through the Book

this makes it possible to find the true meaning of the words/phrases...

I do not find that with other versions.

 

[1611AV]

i once asked a non-kjv person to tell me what Noah's son Ham's, sin was in Gen9,
and why Noah had gotten so mad at him...

the response was tradition, instead of finding the answer in "like wording" in Lev18

I think much of that has to do with all the different interpretations of the bible...



the reason I like the KJV is even when the translaters made an error,
or used a certain bunch of words to describe a thing,
they usually stay with that interp all the way through the Book

this makes it possible to find the true meaning of the words/phrases...

I do not find that with other versions.

There are no errors made in the King James Bible. Well maybe just one, where it speaks of tongues

seriously speaking, I believe the King James 1611 AV to be perfectly preserved Word of God.

Most people that disagree with this always go back to the Greek or Hebrew text and say you can't accurately translate into English.

But then I guess if that were the case then tongues never existed in any form.

They dismiss the Holy Ghost completely.

Lord Bless,

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

No, I don't believe at all in the charismatic way. I believe from what I have read in the Bible that men spoke in their own language but was understood by people of all languages. But I admit I do not look into tongues in depth nor have I prayed for understanding here. So I can be way off here.

What I do know is tongues where used for a sign.

Then you have the truth in your hands.

But I admit I do not look into tongues in depth nor have I prayed for understanding here. So I can be way off here.

\

That is an attitude that is comendable!

 

[zeke37]

There are no errors made in the King James Bible. Well maybe just one, where it speaks of tongues

seriously speaking, I believe the King James 1611 AV to be perfectly preserved Word of God.

Most people that disagree with this always go back to the Greek or Hebrew text and say you can't accurately translate into English.

But then I guess if that were the case then tongues never existed in any form.

They dismiss the Holy Ghost completely.

Lord Bless,

well, this deserves it's own thread...or I should say, another thread.

but...

even right away, Gen1:2 is translated into Eglish incorrectly.

the translators of the 1611KJV av wrote a letter to King James,
in which they admitted tha their interpretation was not inspired,
but was the "best that then could do"

there is error, but we have the Ms, MSs and a better understanding of languages, to get us the truth...

whcih is why we know the greek manuscripts are legit.


personally, I trust the Strong's Concordance for transliterations.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Be careful?

I'm not the least bit worried about my position, nor am I gonna be open minded to change my position at all, whatsoever. I received my gift of tongues because I prayed and fasted for the answer, and received it without anyone laying hands on me for it. It came from GOD in answer to prayer.

So my assertion stands. People can try to wage their campaign of nonsense against the gifts of GOD and they will not make a dent into stopping GOD from handing them out as HE does.

Once a subject like this comes down to just badgering, anymore I tend to offer this simple suggestion,..

Ask GOD.

No one who is interested in these things of the bible has to deal with just people opinions, a Christian can seek GOD about these things in prayer. GOD doesn't hand out bad things to HIS people.

ask Him how?
charismatic prayer?
how'dya know what you are even asking Him?

Mmh- it's interesting, ARBITER01, that you absolutely insist that you are right, and therefore that Christians like zeke37 must be wrong.

I very much trust in the Holy Spirit and have certainly asked God to help me with this matter, and had a very clear reply: that what some of the charismatic churches teach about speaking in tongues is not Biblical and makes a mockery of our faith. At one service I attended, where the minister talked gibberish and urged others to do the same, I maintain that the Holy Spirit gave me a very clear instruction: flee from that place, have nothing to do with the nonsense that was being presented; heed what is said in Revelation 16:

13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Where I live, charismatic churches downplay their Pentecostal roots- which makes me ask: what have they got to hide? And whenever I ask a charismatic church member to submit to an independent test- to let me, for example, tape their "speaking in tongues" and then have two or more independent interpreters provide an explanation and see if they match, they refuse. Would you do this- would you submit to a verifiable test regarding your ability to speak in tongues, just like those who claim to do healing miracles, or utter prophecies, must do?

.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Mmh- it's interesting, ARBITER01, that you absolutely insist that you are right, and therefore that Christians like zeke37 must be wrong.

Isn't that the case with many Christians who think they have a special dedicated data line to God? We all have our opinions and that's what makes us an interesting and stimulating bunch of people. I highly respect the other contributors on this forum even though I might have vast disagreements with their theology.

very much trust in the Holy Spirit and have certainly asked God to help me with this matter, and had a very clear reply: that what some of the charismatic churches teach about speaking in tongues is not Biblical and makes a mockery of our faith. At one service I attended, where the minister talked gibberish and urged others to do the same, I maintain that the Holy Spirit gave me a very clear instruction: flee from that place, have nothing to do with the nonsense that was being presented; heed what is said in Revelation 16:

13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

I can understand that, because there is quite a mixture of the flesh and the spirit happening in many of those churches. But it is a very dangerous thing to accuse Christian groups of being of the devil. If the group is approved of God, you might end up fighting against God Himself, even though there are fleshly things going on there. Gamaliel said concerning the new Christian church in Acts (somewhere) that if it is not of God it will die a natural death, so let's not be too rash about what we do with it otherwise we might be fighting against God (my paraphrase).

I live, charismatic churches downplay their Pentecostal roots- which makes me ask: what have they got to hide? And whenever I ask a charismatic church member to submit to an independent test- to let me, for example, tape their "speaking in tongues" and then have two or more independent interpreters provide an explanation and see if they match, they refuse. Would you do this- would you submit to a verifiable test regarding your ability to speak in tongues, just like those who claim to do healing miracles, or utter prophecies, must do?

The gift of tongues is primarily a prayer language between a believer and his God; therefore it is sacred. To demand that someone tape their tongues so you can analyse and belittle it is bordering on insulting that believer and the Holy Spirit within him. I have serious doubts about the spirit that is motivating you to do things like that just to satisfy your curiosity. Satisfying curiosity about things of the Spirit in that way is definite sin that needs repenting of. Jesus spoke to Satan and told him, "It is written that you do not put God to the test." So I am saying the same thing to you. By the way, did Jesus come in the flesh? That is my test for you to see what spirit you are of.

 

[ARBITER01]

Mmh- it's interesting, ARBITER01, that you absolutely insist that you are right, and therefore that Christians like zeke37 must be wrong.

I very much trust in the Holy Spirit and have certainly asked God to help me with this matter, and had a very clear reply: that what some of the charismatic churches teach about speaking in tongues is not Biblical and makes a mockery of our faith. At one service I attended, where the minister talked gibberish and urged others to do the same, I maintain that the Holy Spirit gave me a very clear instruction: flee from that place, have nothing to do with the nonsense that was being presented; heed what is said in Revelation 16:

13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Where I live, charismatic churches downplay their Pentecostal roots- which makes me ask: what have they got to hide? And whenever I ask a charismatic church member to submit to an independent test- to let me, for example, tape their "speaking in tongues" and then have two or more independent interpreters provide an explanation and see if they match, they refuse. Would you do this- would you submit to a verifiable test regarding your ability to speak in tongues, just like those who claim to do healing miracles, or utter prophecies, must do?

.

I think your bias'd position about this is really starting to show.

As Oscarr already said, tongues are between GOD and I, so the answer is no, and you shouldn't have asked anyways.

My position is one of help anymore. Folks are able to seek these things with GOD and find them from HIM. They don't need anyone laying hands on them to receive them, just basic seeking and knocking in prayer at the throne of grace. I was able to receive them from HIM, so anyone can, GOD has not changed on this.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

I have no doubt that prophecies and miraculous healings still occur today, and that some Christians are in fact able to communicate the Word of God in a language unfamiliar to them.

But those who prophecy, and those who heal, will always have the validity of their gifts confirmed. But just like the Bible makes it very clear that false prophets will be harshly dealt with, so I am convinced that those who misinterpret the Bible with regards to speaking in tongues, such as some in the church at Corinth and in some churches today, will also be asked to account for their actions.

I think as Christians, we always need to follow the example of Jesus and of Paul and challenge those who may be misinterpreting or misusing the Word of God- just look at how much evil has been perpetrated through the ages by those claiming to be following God and the Bible- and were not challenged early enough with regard to those beliefs.

.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have no doubt that prophecies and miraculous healings still occur today, and that some Christians are in fact able to communicate the Word of God in a language unfamiliar to them.

The gift tongues was not designed to communicate the Word of God to anyone, unless it is interpreted as such in a church meeting. The primary purpose of tongues is to enhance a person's private prayer life. Tongues is a prayer language directed to God. God does not need His Word communicated back to Himself. Jesus IS the Word of God. He doesn't need us to give Him what He is already. I need to make that clear, but I do go along with you in that some Christians can speak a language that they have never learned, and somehow it enhances, and makes their prayers much more effective.

But those who prophecy, and those who heal, will always have the validity of their gifts confirmed. But just like the Bible makes it very clear that false prophets will be harshly dealt with, so I am convinced that those who misinterpret the Bible with regards to speaking in tongues, such as some in the church at Corinth and in some churches today, will also be asked to account for their actions.

No truly born again believer, baptised in the Holy Spirit will want to be a false prophet. The difference between the prophets of the OT and those of the NT is that the OT ones followed an outward set of laws, and the NT ones have the law of God written on their hearts. I think the vast majority of those who seek to prophesy are genuine
Christians who want to be used of God to strengthen the body of Christ. But there are some liars and charlatans who pretend to be prophets because they, like Simon the sorcerer (in Acts) want to have the power of God for their own self gain and reputation. These are unsaved people filled with lying religious spirits pretending to be people of God. The devil's counterfeits are so like the real thing that it takes someone with the gift of the discerning of spirits to tell them apart.

Concerning speaking in tongues. Paul gave corrective teaching concerning tongues to the Corinthian church, therefore the way Paul taught how to use the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14 is the way that believers should use the gift, and if you look at the teaching carefully, the public use of tongues should be accompanied by interpretation, otherwise it can descend into a show of the flesh and have no value at all. Paul also taught quite clearly that the private use of tongues before God in the prayer closet is quite appropriate and it strengthens the believer when he uses it there. It is interesting to know that in II Corinthians, Paul rejoices over the improvements they made, so they must have go the message and put things right, including the appropriate use of prophecy and tongues.

I think as Christians, we always need to follow the example of Jesus and of Paul and challenge those who may be misinterpreting or misusing the Word of God- just look at how much evil has been perpetrated through the ages by those claiming to be following God and the Bible- and were not challenged early enough with regard to those beliefs.

You are quite correct, and I am sure that when you study the Scriptures about tongues and prophecy with a prayerful attitude, God will reveal to you the blessedness and effectiveness of being baptised in the Holy Spirit and having the gifts of tongues and prophecy. Without a revelation from God about it, I don't think that you will really understanding too much about it. Much of the ways in which the Holy Spirit moves in and through us can't be understood by the natural, rational mind. It is foolishness to the natural mind, but what can be foolishness to men, could actually be the true wisdom of God.

So, in all due respect, I think that if you have decided not to enter into the supernatural gifts but remain on the outside looking in, it may be that God does not think you are ready or mature enough in Him to receive the revelation. He does not share His secrets with those who cannot receive them. He shares them with those who are prayerful and fully committed to allowing the Holy Spirit to move freely in and through them without prejudice of any kind. Maybe if you got your eyes off the churches that are getting it wrong, because in doing that you are messing around in the natural and seeing things that way, you got into the presence of God where His glory is and see things in the spiritual, I know that you will discover things that will be a great blessing to you. I believe that the things of the Holy Spirit are spiritually discerned by those who are prepared to rise toward heaven and get into God's glory and develop their spiritual eyes to see what God has in store for them.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Mmh- it's interesting, ARBITER01, that you absolutely insist that you are right, and therefore that Christians like zeke37 must be wrong.

I very much trust in the Holy Spirit and have certainly asked God to help me with this matter, and had a very clear reply: that what some of the charismatic churches teach about speaking in tongues is not Biblical and makes a mockery of our faith. At one service I attended, where the minister talked gibberish and urged others to do the same, I maintain that the Holy Spirit gave me a very clear instruction: flee from that place, have nothing to do with the nonsense that was being presented; heed what is said in Revelation 16:

13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Where I live, charismatic churches downplay their Pentecostal roots- which makes me ask: what have they got to hide? And whenever I ask a charismatic church member to submit to an independent test- to let me, for example, tape their "speaking in tongues" and then have two or more independent interpreters provide an explanation and see if they match, they refuse. Would you do this- would you submit to a verifiable test regarding your ability to speak in tongues, just like those who claim to do healing miracles, or utter prophecies, must do?

.

I very much trust in the Holy Spirit and have certainly asked God to help me with this matter, and had a very clear reply: that what some of the charismatic churches teach about speaking in tongues is not Biblical and makes a mockery of our faith.

I agree. Let me ask you something . . . did the Spirit tell you that ALL were in this camp? or, as you stated, some? I think if we think critically here we may get something from this . . .

At one service I attended, where the minister talked gibberish and urged others to do the same, I maintain that the Holy Spirit gave me a very clear instruction: flee from that place, have nothing to do with the nonsense that was being presented; heed what is said in Revelation 16:

13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

WOW . . . I had never associated this passage with tongues before . . . interesting indeed . . . it actually fits quite well. Not sure how it jives hermeneutically, but this is interesting for sure! Thanks! (seriously )

And whenever I ask a charismatic church member to submit to an independent test- to let me, for example, tape their "speaking in tongues" and then have two or more independent interpreters provide an explanation and see if they match, they refuse. Would you do this- would you submit to a verifiable test regarding your ability to speak in tongues, just like those who claim to do healing miracles, or utter prophecies, must do?

No I would not submit to the test . . . because the test is not the interpretation itself in the Bible, it is DOES THE INTERPRETATION EDIFY . . . not, does this interpretation line with that interpretation of the same tongues speak. That is not the test that Paul places upon it.

Another reason is that your fundamental assumptions in the test are wrong. Tongues is not a language like human speech where you link concepts to syllables and derrive a communication. Like:

Ka balatai, ho shalla ma kan (made up)

always will = "Jesus is Lord of Creation"

and to line up interpreters and judge their interpretation (which by the way, the interpretation is what you would be judging AND NOT THE TONGUES AS YOU SUPPOSE) by this concept is erroneous because it assumes the operation of tongues as the same as the operation of normal human speech. It is not. Tongues are emotional communication not concepts linked to words . . . it is more subjective than normal speech.

So, your test would NEVER be passed, because, you are operating on a assumption that tongues doesnt even connect to . . . and so your test would never succeed.

Understand, if the Spirit quickens the interpretation of the above as

"Jesus is Lord of Creation" to one man, another who receives:

"The Son of God, Jesus Christ, is King and Sovereign over trees and planets and all that is, praise be to Him"

STILL IS LEGIT IN THE INTERPRETATION.

AS for prophets and miracles . . . there can be real miracles that are still false as they are LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS . . . but the healing is real enough. Satan can prophesy and arrange things so to seem as they come to pass through foretelling (see the psychic friends network) and he can also heal through metaphysical means . . .

the tests on ALL of these have never been the tests that you are putting forward (see Matthew 7, legit miracles and casting out of demons, yet Jesus never knew them).

They HAVE been:
1. Doctrine/Content
2. Confirmation by the leadership/judgement of the Church
3. Edification
4. Fruit

 

[Servant of Jesus]

So, in all due respect, I think that if you have decided not to enter into the supernatural gifts but remain on the outside looking in, it may be that God does not think you are ready or mature enough in Him to receive the revelation.

As I've said before- Billy Graham, who I consider to be one of the greatest evangelists of all time, admitted that he never spoke in tongues, or had any of the millions of people that attended his revival meetings ever do this either.

So if you're right, I'm in good company!

.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

As I've said before- Billy Graham, who I consider to be one of the greatest evangelists of all time, admitted that he never spoke in tongues, or had any of the millions of people that attended his revival meetings ever do this either.

So if you're right, I'm in good company!

.

And wasnt Billy who recently spoke about people being saved and not having to know Jesus? Me thinks so .. . so much for good company . . . yikes!

 

[Servant of Jesus]

And wasnt Billy who recently spoke about people being saved and not having to know Jesus? Me thinks so .. . so much for good company . . . yikes!

Show me that quote, and that it was made in an overall accurate context and not misinterpreted- that is not the Billy Graham that I know.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Here is one key statement from the Billy Graham Evangelical Association:

Here is How You Can Receive Christ:

1. Admit your need. (I am a sinner).

2. Be willing to turn from your sins (repent).

3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave.

4. Pray a prayer like this: Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name, Amen.

Doesn't sound like heresy to me. And remember- Billy Graham is in good company because the Bible makes no mention that Jesus ever spoke in tongues and urged his apostles to do so!


I think we should be cognizant of one key passage in 1 Timothy:

1 Timothy 6

3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

and later

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Again, let me remind you: I have no doubt that Paul and his apostles spoke in languages unknown to them in their pursuit of spreading the gospel; and I have no doubt that some evangelists are blessed with that gift today.

But too often what I have experienced is not something meant to present the Good News of Jesus Christ- but rather what Paul refers to in 1 Timothy 20 as "godless chatter" by a group of professed Christians who appear to place themselves above their brothers and sisters in Christ, and have allowed conceit and stubborn blindness to influence what they believe.

.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

And in case anyone doubts what it is I believe, here is my own statement of faith:

1. That the Universe was created by God. (Genesis 1:1)

2. That the Bible is divinely inspired by God, can be completely trusted, and describes how we are to live our lives in a manner that is pleasing to God. (Matthew 24:14)

3. That we are all sinners and as such, according to the Bible, are destined to go to hell. (Romans 3:23)

4. That God came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ and promised that if we believe in Him, repent of our sins, and ask God through the power of the Holy Spirit to guide us through life according to His will, that we will have eternal life and a place with Him in Heaven. (John 3:16)

.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As I've said before- Billy Graham, who I consider to be one of the greatest evangelists of all time, admitted that he never spoke in tongues, or had any of the millions of people that attended his revival meetings ever do this either.

So if you're right, I'm in good company!

.

Romans 12:3 says that God has given to each of us the measure of faith so that we can use the giftings He has given us. So by your own words, God has not given you the measure of faith to believe that you can speak in tongues. Okay, I can live with that. You have what God has given you, and God has bypassed you in other areas. No problem. Because with any gift, you have to know that what gifting you have is God's will for you, otherwise you will never manifest it;.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

and later

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.

So you are using these Scriptures to imply that people who speak in tongues are false and are described in these passages?

So, to be consistent, you have to put the apostle Paul in this category because he spoke in tongues and advocated it strongly to the Corinthians. Are you saying that Paul was after financial gain?

You must be very desperate to prove that tongues is false, and that people who speak in tongues are very evil people! :o:o:o

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But too often what I have experienced is not something meant to present the Good News of Jesus Christ- but rather what Paul refers to in 1 Timothy 20 as "godless chatter" by a group of professed Christians who appear to place themselves above their brothers and sisters in Christ, and have allowed conceit and stubborn blindness to influence what they believe.

.

Good Grief! I don't belieeeeeve it! Here is another who quotes Scripture right out of context to try to prove a point. This reference has absolutely nothing to do with tongues! Is this your view of Pentecostals and Charismatics???

Just because you don't have the revelation from God about the gift of tongues, or the measure of faith to be able to use the resource, it doesn't mean that everyone who does have the revelation and the measure of faith are engaging in "godless chatter". How can godly people who are wanting more of God in their lives and ministries, and who are washed clean in the blood of Christ and wearing the righteousness of Christ even get anywhere near "godless chatter". I would describe the profane talk in football changing rooms "godless chatter", not the sincere faith of good believers speaking languages that they believe God understands.